I'm against counterfeiting, not the Chinese

nycounsel · February 3, 2009 12:31AM

Like many here, I read news articles and posts about counterfeit coins and slabs coming out of China. Some of those counterfeits are so bad as to be almost funny, others are disturbingly high quality and we are all rightly concerned about the impact on our hobby. I share those concerns. However, sometimes the comments cross into a general anti-Chinese sentiment that I don't share.

China is a big country with a huge population. They might speak a different language and have a different culture, they might be governed differently, but in what matters, they are no better or worse than Americans. Many of them are honest and hardworking. Some are dishonest, some are criminal. The same is true of any population and any culture.

Fake coins, altered coins, tooled, whizzed, cleaned... wherever there is money to be made, there are those who are willing to lie, cheat and steal to make it. Counterfeiting is neither new to numismatics, nor unique to the Chinese. I'm not sure what we can do to protect the integrity of our hobby. It doesn't seem like this type of activity is deemed important enough by either our government, much less a foreign one, to do much to stop it. Heck, our own government seems happy to look the other way while "Obama" quarters are advertised on T.V. by Montel; even numismatic publications seem happy enough to accept advertising dollars from questionable sources that also harm our hobby, designed to take advantage of people who aren't as sophisticated as you or I.

Still, we should NOT attribute the actions of the small group of criminals who are involved in counterfeiting activities with an entire population. We've come to talk of counterfeits as if they all originate in China, but they could just as easily be from India, or England, or Wisconsin. The country of origin is not the issue, except of course to the extent that government endorses the actions. We should be writing our Congressmen and Senators to inform them of the issue and ask that they do whatever they can politically to have China crack down on this.

If neither government considers this a problem, maybe turnabout is fair play, and we can commission Daniel Carr to create some equally high quality Chinese coins to muck up their market. Of course, he would not agree to this since he is a remarkably skilled artist, not a counterfeiter -- I read yesterday that even some of his creations are now being copied.

ziggy29 · February 3, 2009 12:33AM

<< The country of origin is not the issue, except of course to the extent that government endorses the actions. >>

That, IMO, is like saying "I'm in perfect health, except for the fact that I have terminal cancer."

tightbudget · February 3, 2009 12:36AM

AUandAG · February 3, 2009 12:38AM

<< 

<< The country of origin is not the issue, except of course to the extent that government endorses the actions. >>

That, IMO, is like saying "I'm in perfect health, except for the fact that I have terminal cancer." >>

Yep, the country of origin is the issue ALONG with the fine, hard working folks that make the coins/slugs. It's all part and parcel of the problem and
I don't believe you can separate the two. IF the gov't of China endorses this action, which it appears it does by it's lack of response to do anything,
then it become a willing partner in crime and it is the country of origin.
Just my two bits.
bob

BillJones · February 3, 2009 12:40AM

The Chinese badly need to grow up and learn what it takes to be good world citizens. That means that you don’t make it legal for your citizens to produce counterfeit coins and market them to the world. It also means that you don’t sell dangerous produces to the world with poisons in them and lead paint on them.

Until the Chinese government and Chinese business people show a willingness to do that, they deserve all of the criticism that many of us are heaping upon them.

CertifiedGoldCoins · February 3, 2009 12:46AM

(anything else I might add about this subject would not be printable.)

Barry · February 3, 2009 12:47AM

<< Until the Chinese government and Chinese business people show a willingness to do that, they deserve all of the criticism that many of us are heaping upon them. >>

nycounsel · February 3, 2009 12:58AM

To the extent the Chinese government is aware of this activity and does nothing to end it, I don't disagree.

But I do wonder what the U.S. government would do if a small business in the U.S. started exporting high quality copies of Chinese coins? Considering that Obama coins are advertised on national T.V., and common coins are freely advertised as valuable collectibles to fleece an ignorant population, I can't help but wonder if the powers that be would really care.

Even if China did crack down (as they should), I'm sure that counterfeiters would just relocate to someplace else. Of course, this does not excuse a government turning a blind eye to the issue, assuming that is what is happening -- I'm not suggesting that those who are doing this shouldn't be stopped.

But we need to recognize that the problem of dealing with fakes, regardless of where they are from, will likely never end. As technology and tools get better and better, the fakes will get better and better as well.

Gemineye · February 3, 2009 1:03AM

<< I'm against counterfeiting, not the Chinese >>

......I like Chinese food.....

mrmom · February 3, 2009 1:04AM

<< To the extent the Chinese government is aware of this activity and does nothing to end it, I don't disagree.

But I do wonder what the U.S. government would do if a small business in the U.S. started exporting high quality copies of Chinese coins? Considering that Obama quarters are advertised on national T.V., and common coins are freely advertised as valuable collectibles to fleece an ignorant population, I can't help but wonder if the powers that be would really care. I suspect that if China did crack down, I imagine counterfeiters would just relocate to someplace else.

I'm not suggesting that those who are doing this shouldn't be stopped. But we need to recognize that the problem of dealing with fakes, regardless of where they are from, will likely never end. As technology and tools get better and better, the fakes will get better and better as well. >>

Well said,
and to some extent, our fleabay is also a part to blame as many of these fakes are sold thru this venue.

sinin1 · February 3, 2009 1:10AM

I think Obama and his new crew of tax minimzers/dodgers should help our trade deficit with China by making counterfeit Chinese money to flood their economy

(If they are not doing it already)

just kidding of course, because that would probably be a capital offense

BillJones · February 3, 2009 1:10AM

I don't know about the Obama quarter, but I do know about the Obama dollar and half dollar becasue I've seen the ads on TV.

Those are genuine coins that have been gold plated with stickers on them with Obama's picture. To the extent that they are dealing in genuine coins, you can't compare that to the Chinese who are making counterfeit coins and trying to sell them as genuine pieces on Ebay and other venues.

Sure, the Obama dollar is a dumb buy, but no one is saying that it is an official government issue piece or that it is anything but what it is ... a poltical charm.

nycounsel · February 3, 2009 1:15AM

I think Obama and his new crew of tax minimzers/dodgers should help our trade deficit with China by making counterfeit Chinese money to flood their economy

(If they are not doing it already)

just kidding of course, because that would probably be a capital offense

lol, we don't need to make counterfeit Chinese money, we can just make an unlimited supply of real U.S. dollars.

nycounsel · February 3, 2009 1:21AM

Those are genuine coins that have been gold plated with stickers on them with Obama's picture. To the extent that they are dealing in genuine coins, you can't compare that to the Chinese who are making counterfeit coins and trying to sell them as genuine pieces on Ebay and other venues.

Sure, the Obama dollar is a dumb buy, but no one is saying that it is an official government issue piece or that it is anything but what it is ... a poltical charm.

That's certainly a valid distinction. But the activity is similar; passing something with little value off as something of greater value to separate rubes from their money.

BillJones · February 3, 2009 1:22AM

I had to laugh. I read a story that other day that the Chinese government is upset over the fact that many classic Chinese coins are being exported to the U.S. and other countries. They want to stop to it.

Well I can understand their concerns about losing their cultural treasures, but how about OUR cultural treasures? Do THEY think that we are thrilled to have Chinese make counterfeit U.S. coins to sell in the American numismatic market? Some mutual respect would go a long way.

Al21 · February 3, 2009 1:42AM

The Chinese Government endorses or looks the other way on counterfeits. And China counterfeits everything! To the tune of 250B a year in the US. Coins are just a small part.

tightbudget · February 3, 2009 1:48AM

<< The Chinese Government endorses or looks the other way on counterfeits. And China counterfeits everything! To the tune of 250B a year in the US. Coins are just a small part. >>

I disagree with your statement on China endorsing counterfeits and/or looking the other way. China cares a lot about its reputation as a world power and sadly, being the large country that it is, it is very hard to enforce the laws on every person in every square mile. If you don't believe me when I say that they care about their reputation, take the recent melamine milk problem as an example. China executed a couple of the members involved and gave life sentences to others not because they only believe in harsh sentences, but because they had greatly tarnished China's reputation on an international level.

Longacre · February 3, 2009 2:39AM

There are a lot of good Chinese, and I agree that it is not fair to lump an entire country together. I have been to China multiple times (and not just to the 5 star hotels in Beijing and Shanghai; I've roughed it in the slums of Luzhou and other places). Generally, the people are nice and want to do the right thing.

WTCG · February 3, 2009 2:46AM

This is a well stated post and it conveys the theme I have been trying to express in many of my thread replies. It is unfortunate that many people are too ignorant or too stubborn to change from their unfair blanket judgements.

TwoSides2aCoin · February 3, 2009 2:47AM

People are individuals. I agree with Longacre. I've never been to China, but Toronto Canada has a couple China towns and the people are fantastic. I am for a law of LOVE, but who will pass that one ? Who will enforce it ? Who will define it ? How can you know it's authentic ?

julie43 · February 3, 2009 3:18AM

<< People are individuals. I agree with Longacre. I've never been to China, but Toronto Canada has a couple China towns and the people are fantastic. I am for a law of LOVE, but who will pass that one ? Who will enforce it ? Who will define it ? How can you know it's authentic ? >>

That would be great in a perfect world......... I would just be happy with a Law of Tolerance.

TwoSides2aCoin · February 3, 2009 3:24AM

Good point Julie...

Counterfeiters work using very close tolerances, I might add. So close, most people cannot tell the difference.

pheh · February 3, 2009 3:28AM

I Like Chinese

jsf · February 3, 2009 3:30AM

aren't Chinese politics off limits here, too?

TwoSides2aCoin · February 3, 2009 3:45AM

<< aren't Chinese politics off limits here, too? >>

EOM

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. This is beautiful.

Remember, it's about U.S. Coins

MrHalfDime · February 3, 2009 3:50AM

"But I do wonder what the U.S. government would do if a small business in the U.S. started exporting high quality copies of Chinese coins?"

I am not an attorney, but it is my understanding that it is against the law in the United States to counterfeit the coins of any country, not just those of the United States. If China had such a law on their books, and chose to enforce it, we would not be having this discussion.

edix2001 · February 3, 2009 3:52AM

Have you seen the photos of the dingy shops where the counterfeit coins are struck?
That is China writ large. It has become a labor platform of cheap products for the West, including the US of A. Our purchases of inexpensive items at Walmart, et al, makes that system run.
Are you blaming the Chinese for lead in the paint, or the American companies that make their orders from China and give them the specs trying to find the lowest bidder?
It's a world economy, folks. No one is immune and everyone is complicit.

blu62vette · February 3, 2009 4:02AM

<< This is a well stated post and it conveys the theme I have been trying to express in many of my thread replies. It is unfortunate that many people are too ignorant or too stubborn to change from their unfair blanket judgements. >>

PerryHall · February 3, 2009 4:04AM

<< aren't Chinese politics off limits here, too? >>

Not sure. You'll have to ask Rust.

jmski52 · February 3, 2009 4:05AM

Are you blaming the Chinese for lead in the paint, or the American companies that make their orders from China and give them the specs trying to find the lowest bidder?

Depends on what was written into the specs. If an American paint manufacturer was making lead-based paint, they'd be cited and/or shut down.

nycounsel · February 3, 2009 4:08AM

Are you blaming the Chinese for lead in the paint, or the American companies that make their orders from China and give them the specs trying to find the lowest bidder?

Depends on what was written into the specs. If an American paint manufacturer was making lead-based paint, they'd be cited and/or shut down.

Two words:

Ford Pinto.

Coxe · February 3, 2009 4:08AM

The Chinese, as the culture that breeds this behavior more comfortably, are behaving in a way that mimicks the way they perceive those successful Americans do. We are thought of as aggressive, opportunistic, predatory, business efficient, indifferent to personal suffering, etc .... a lot of capitalistic exagerations. The successful here, to them, are a club of the likes of Ron Popeil, Billy Mays, Bernard Madoff, Anthony Robbins, Cal Worthington, .... Of course, that is a ridiculous caricature of the successful American. (The rest of us are heavy pollutiing, overweight Hummer drivers who eat daily at McDonald's, live and die for American Idol, and proudly brandish firearms at every opportunbity.) And the associated Chinese businessman/criminal is likely equally a caricature. The difference is that we do have an open society and regulatory oversight. (The occasional Bernie M. is the rare exception.) The Chinese government is elated by economic growth potential and is either encouraging, blind-eying, or outright facilitating the more aggressive opportunists aming their huge populace. We have had a history of international proportion excesses bred by our back-slapping happy government in the past too. The Chinese will do absolutely no more than pay lip service to complaints about wholesale copyright infringement problems, spam and malware problems, and counterfeiting problems. Why? Because they also see us as a zh¨« l¨£oh¨³, and we haven't proven them even a little bit incorrect in their assessment.

edit>>>(The unicode mangled...the zhǐ lǎohǔ term is Chinese for "paper tiger".)

nycounsel · February 3, 2009 4:17AM

I think that regardless of what China or any other government does, the problem of counterfeits is here to stay and is only going to get worse.

We need to figure out the best countermeasures. Slabbing is certainly one of them, but the counterfeit slabs show that it's an imperfect solution.

Maybe we'll eventually have each collected coin registered, slabbed and attributed to an owner; and buyers will verify the transfer of ownership to ensure they aren't receiving a copy, or some other process will exist. Seems like counterfeiting isn't limited to high dollar coins these days, so we all are right to be concerned about it.

BillJones · February 3, 2009 4:28AM

<< I think that regardless of what China or any other government does, the problem of counterfeits is here to stay and is only going to get worse.

We need to figure out the best countermeasures. Slabbing is certainly one of them, but the counterfeit slabs show that it's an imperfect solution.

Maybe we'll eventually have each collected coin registered, slabbed and attributed to an owner; and buyers will verify the transfer of ownership to ensure they aren't receiving a copy, or some other process will exist. Seems like counterfeiting isn't limited to high dollar coins these days, so we all are right to be concerned about it. >>

If the Chinese government would outlaw these “old coin duplicating” operations it would at least show that they have some interest in fixing the problem. So far they have not done that. It is legal in China to duplicate any foreign coin that is dated before 1948. So long as that is the OFFICIAL policy of the Chinese government, your excuses for not condemning their behavior and their guiding principles fall flat on their face.

nycounsel · February 3, 2009 4:40AM

It is legal in China to duplicate any foreign coin that is dated before 1948. So long as that is the OFFICIAL policy of the Chinese government, your excuses for not condemning their behavior and their guiding principles fall flat on their face.

I'm not making excuses for anything, and I differentiate between the Chinese government and the Chinese population.

I've read the same reports of numerous fakes coming from China, and am aware of the problem, but I don't know about what is legal or illegal under Chinese law.

What is your source for the statement that, in China, it is legal to duplicate foreign coins dated before 1948?

nycounsel · February 3, 2009 4:48AM

This article suggests that there is counterfeiting of Chinese coins as well; clearly that is illegal under China law but doesn't stop it from happening.

link

The Ministry of Public Security recently listed eight cities including Guangzhou and Wuhan as major targets for counterfeit coins. In September 2006, the minister held a meeting with police from four provinces, then conducted raids on counterfeit coin factories in all four provinces, including in the city of Changsha in Hunan.

The July 6 issue of the China Daily newspaper reported that eight tons of counterfeit coins were seized in one of the 2006 raids. The factory was reported to have been hidden under a pigsty. During the first eight months of 2006, law enforcement in Hubei confiscated more than 10.52 million 1-yuan coins, according to the newspaper.

Obviously the government should have laws in place to prevent counterfeiting of coins, but if anyone seriously thinks that will end the problem, they are fooling themselves. If there's profit to be made, people will do it. Laws are broken by people hoping to make a quick buck all the time, in China and everywhere.

BillJones · February 3, 2009 4:53AM

<< What is your source for the statement that, in China, it is legal to duplicate foreign coins dated before 1948? >>

The three part Coin World article that threw light on this problem plus the presentation at an educational forum at the FUN show given by Beth Deisher who writes for the editorials for Coin World plus another gentlemen who had a collection of counterfeit U.S. coins that he had purchased from Chinese "minters.'"

Please stop making excuses for these people. No one here is condemning every Chinese citizen, but we are condemning the policies and laws of the Chinese government and Chinese merchants who are producing and selling these counterfeits openly and with no apologies.

edix2001 · February 3, 2009 4:54AM

<< Are you blaming the Chinese for lead in the paint, or the American companies that make their orders from China and give them the specs trying to find the lowest bidder?

Depends on what was written into the specs. If an American paint manufacturer was making lead-based paint, they'd be cited and/or shut down. >>

Thus American goods would be more expensive for Americans to purchase.
How do American companies resolve this? They send their orders to China.
Simple logic.

edix2001 · February 3, 2009 4:56AM

<< 

... eight tons of counterfeit coins were seized in one of the 2006 raids. The factory was reported to have been hidden under a pigsty.

>>

Long live Pig Sty Alley!

Cladiator · February 3, 2009 4:58AM

I am against counterfeiting and the People's Republic of China.

edix2001 · February 3, 2009 5:02AM

<< Please stop making excuses for these people. >>

The current global financial catastrophe is producing the worst expressions of economic nationalism which in the end could lead to world war. Better to treat the causes rather than the symptoms.

ziggy29 · February 3, 2009 5:06AM

<< The current global financial catastrophe is producing the worst expressions of economic nationalism which in the end could lead to world war. >>

Well, that world war *did* end the depression of the 1930s...

Al21 · February 3, 2009 5:11AM

Please stop making excuses for these people. No one here is condemning every Chinese citizen, but we are condemning the policies and laws of the Chinese government and Chinese merchants who are producing and selling these counterfeits openly and with no apologies. >>

edix2001 · February 3, 2009 5:15AM

<< 

<< The current global financial catastrophe is producing the worst expressions of economic nationalism which in the end could lead to world war. >>

Well, that world war *did* end the depression of the 1930s... >>

Some see that as the normal cycle: expansion, contraction, war, accumulation, expansion, contraction, war ...

nycounsel · February 3, 2009 5:22AM

The three part Coin World article that threw light on this problem plus the presentation at an educational forum at the FUN show given by Beth Deisher who writes for the editorials for Coin World plus another gentlemen who had a collection of counterfeit U.S. coins that he had purchased from Chinese "minters.'"

I'm trying to verify that Chinese law permits counterfeiting of foreign coins dated before 1948. I don't know if it does or does not, but since that's the assertion, I'm trying to verify that.

I know that the Coin World article brought the issue to light, and did not attend the presentation at the FUN show. Maybe someone said that's the law, but that doesn't make it so.

This article link calls it a "profitable criminal venture."

This article on counterfeit coins from China says that "There is no law in China against making these "replicas" as long as they are sold as such."
article

As far as I know, that's true in the U.S. as well.

Obviously, if making counterfeit coins is legal in China, it should be illegal. If it's illegal, as it may be, the problem is really one of enforcement. However, that really doesn't eliminate the problem. The fact is that laws are broken all the time; making something illegal won't stop it from happening -- if people think they can make money at it, it will happen.

The real issue is not the country of origin, but how we can best protect ourselves against counterfeits.

nycounsel · February 3, 2009 5:33AM

we are condemning the policies and laws of the Chinese government and Chinese merchants who are producing and selling these counterfeits openly and with no apologies

I'm sorry, but I still think it's an open question whether the policies and laws of China allow counterfeiting of foreign coins dated before 1948 without being marked as "replica".

I've tried a google search, and gone through a few pages, and I don't see anything that looks like a definitive source.

Considering that most people would be unable to identify the first 5 Amendments to our Constitution, I'm hesitant to simply accept authoritative statements about specific provisions of Chinese law as fact.

I'm against counterfeiting, not the Chinese

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