mdghobbies --- Another Ebay Seller THAT DID THE RIGHT THING..UPDATE

lawnmowerman · January 28, 2009 11:54PM

It all worked out

Thank you, drive thru

bman90278 · January 29, 2009 12:05AM

That sucks Matt...How long ago did you buy it, because you might be able to still do a card/paypal dispute. I think all of us will get screwed at one point and I can only hope it's on a sub $100 card instead of a very high dollar card.

Glad to hear mdghobbies made good on your refund with no questions asked.

gumbyfan · January 29, 2009 12:23AM

I'm sorry to hear about this. These scumbag sellers need to be shut down.

itzagoner · January 29, 2009 12:23AM

thnaks for posting the recipe.

lawnmowerman · January 29, 2009 12:24AM

Brian, I actually bought this card from the seller on 02/08/06!!!! It was before I was into card grading and didn't know any better. I only realized it yesterday because of the experience in card grading and the knowledge learned from this board. At the suggestion of a friend, I went back through my paypal log and found the transaction.

My only recourse will be a chargeback on my credit card. I emailed the seller to let him know the situation because a "card" like this, you would not forget especially since he made it. His reply only confirms he is a liar and that he did in fact make the card.

<< I am sorry if you feel the card I sold you was a fake autograph card. I can assure you that all the autographed cards that I sell on ebay are pulled from a pack myself therefore the cards that were mailed to was not a fake. If the card that you now have in your possession is a fake you must of either traded it or got it from another person and not myself. Since it has been three years since the original transaction was completed and since the card I mailed you was not a fake I will not be accepting any returns and will not issue any refund. MDG HOBBIES >>

ping4u43 · January 29, 2009 12:43AM

That doesn't even look like the Favre signature I have.

lawnmowerman · January 29, 2009 12:45AM

<< That doesn't even look like the Favre signature I have. >>

Yeah Lloyd, it is 100% fake. The resident Favre experts here have confirmed that.

I'm going to see if I can get some good scans of the card's edges so you guys can see how it was glued together.

bman90278 · January 29, 2009 12:48AM

It makes you wonder if this one is legit on ebay right now for $125

brendanb438 · January 29, 2009 12:57AM

How exactly do you do a chargeback on a purchase from 3 years ago?

lsutigers1973 · January 29, 2009 12:58AM

I'm sorry this happened to you 3 years ago.

ElToroLoco · January 29, 2009 12:58AM

Wow, will I ever be NOT surprised by counterfeit cards? I feel safe purchasing cards that have the company certification directly printed on the card and now this? I'm actually in the process of purchasing some expensive 90's Pro Line autos. What I've seen lately are really surprising. I've realized there were quite a few 1991 Star Pics favre autos on auction in the last year. Who is to say unscrupulous people havent forged Favre's autos on the card and placed a sticker peeled of another card onto it? Possibly have Favre auto the actual card and then place an extra sticker onto it. That could possibly be a $300+ swing in price. Maybe the difference is going to have to be with his change of signature from 1991 to now. I've also noticed quite a few 1991-1992 Pro Line Derrick Thomas autos on-line in bunches lately. One eBay seller has an endless supply and I've come to question the authenticity of them. Weren't 1991 and 1992 Pro Line cards easily forged by some guy with a seal press? It's getting tough to collect in this hobby.

gumbyfan · January 29, 2009 12:58AM

The one on eBay for $125 is legit, in my opinion. The loop in Favre looks strange, but I compared it against jradke's slabbed card and it is very similar and the hand numbering is the same.

bman90278 · January 29, 2009 12:59AM

As I look at those cards Matt, it shouldn't be hard to prove you still have the card you purchased and that he is lying to you.

brian

bman90278 · January 29, 2009 1:00AM

<< The one on eBay for $125 is legit, in my opinion. The loop in Favre looks strange, but I compared it against jradke's slabbed card and it is very similar and the hand numbering is the same. >>

Craig, just to clarify that...the raw auto card is $125 and the graded PSA card is $149 obo/buy it now. I would think a legit auto signed with the xxx/1130 is probably worth more than the same card signed on a ttm???

lawnmowerman · January 29, 2009 1:02AM

<< How exactly do you do a chargeback on a purchase from 3 years ago? >>

I'm pretty sure there is no time limit to dispute transactions on your credit card. I could be wrong though.

bman90278 · January 29, 2009 1:05AM

<< 

<< How exactly do you do a chargeback on a purchase from 3 years ago? >>

I'm pretty sure there is no time limit to dispute transactions on your credit card. I could be wrong though. >>

I hired a photographer back in 2003 and he never came through for me on a $2700 package and the Los Angeles County Consumer Affairs said I could still do a dispute today had I used a credit card instead of a check. There were some others who got screwed by the same guy and got their money refunded recently...so you never know.

I will have to find you some info Matt and let me know if I can be of any assistance on your letter. I used to handle card disputes for years when I was a GM in the automotive industry.

Gonblott · January 29, 2009 1:19AM

<< 

<< How exactly do you do a chargeback on a purchase from 3 years ago? >>

I'm pretty sure there is no time limit to dispute transactions on your credit card. I could be wrong though. >>

As a seller who accepts paypal....... to me that is very scary...

If I sell a high dollar graded card and I send out item after I receive payment................ who knows a few months or a few years go by and the buyer claims the item is fake or altered ......... then proceeds to do a chargeback and I lose my $$$..........

Big problem if the buyer wants to be clever...

Matt I think you should file for chargeback because the seller DID send you a fake.

I'm just worried about buyers filing chargebacks after a long period of time and me losing out when the item that was sent to them was genuine.

gumbyfan · January 29, 2009 1:20AM

<< 

<< The one on eBay for $125 is legit, in my opinion. The loop in Favre looks strange, but I compared it against jradke's slabbed card and it is very similar and the hand numbering is the same. >>

Craig, just to clarify that...the raw auto card is $125 and the graded PSA card is $149 obo/buy it now. I would think a legit auto signed with the xxx/1130 is probably worth more than the same card signed on a ttm??? >>

The graded PSA card is questionable based on my experience. If I were to be in the market for a 94 Pro Line Live auto, that wouldn't be the one I bought....raw or slabbed.

bman90278 · January 29, 2009 1:21AM

<< 

<< 

<< How exactly do you do a chargeback on a purchase from 3 years ago? >>

I'm pretty sure there is no time limit to dispute transactions on your credit card. I could be wrong though. >>

As a seller who accepts paypal....... to me that is very scary...

If I sell a high dollar graded card and I send out item after I receive payment................ who knows a few months or a few years go by and the buyer claims the item is fake or altered ......... then proceeds to do a chargeback and I lose my $$$..........

Big problem if the buyer wants to be clever...

Matt I think you should file for chargeback because the seller DID send you a fake.

I'm just worried about buyers filing chargebacks after a long period of time and me losing out when the item that was sent to them was genuine. >>

That's a great point, but I think Matt can prove his card is still the original card he purchased as the sig and #'s are distinctive where a non-signed card might be tough to prove.

lawnmowerman · January 29, 2009 1:29AM

<< 

<< 

<< How exactly do you do a chargeback on a purchase from 3 years ago? >>

I'm pretty sure there is no time limit to dispute transactions on your credit card. I could be wrong though. >>

As a seller who accepts paypal....... to me that is very scary...

If I sell a high dollar graded card and I send out item after I receive payment................ who knows a few months or a few years go by and the buyer claims the item is fake or altered ......... then proceeds to do a chargeback and I lose my $$$..........

Big problem if the buyer wants to be clever...

Matt I think you should file for chargeback because the seller DID send you a fake.

I'm just worried about buyers filing chargebacks after a long period of time and me losing out when the item that was sent to them was genuine. >>

Just don't sell fake crap and you should have nothing to worry about(which I know you won't)

Most scumbags are going to involve paypal within the timeframe allowed.

They wouldn't wait many months or even years.

bman90278 · January 29, 2009 1:41AM

Matt, I hope everything works out for you and I'm very glad you didn't tell us you got that card from a recent rip.

lawnmowerman · January 29, 2009 1:49AM

Here is a good shot of one of the card's edges. You can see the line where it was glued together

stown · January 29, 2009 1:53AM

I'm sorry this happened to you, albeit 3 years ago. Please don't leave because you are an irreplaceable member of this forum.

lawnmowerman · January 29, 2009 1:58AM

<< I'm sorry this happened to you, albeit 3 years ago. Please don't leave because you are an irreplaceable member of this forum.

>>

There is no time limit on scumbagginess.

I'm not going anywhere

jimq112 · January 29, 2009 2:03AM

A lot of the early proline cards being sold now are fakes. If I remember right the crimping stamps were sold and ended up in taiwan, there are a lot of bad autos coming from there. Also some of the original autos you could pull from packs were even bad. Aikman and Jim Kelly among others used an autopen. Walter Payton had a relative sign about half of his. There was a Steelers player whose name escapes me who had his wife sign.

That said, Matt's is obviously a fake. But without a copy of the auction showing that card I don't think much will happen.

I wonder if the seller bought it that way and passed the savings on to Matt, or if he did the work himself. Seems like a lot of work for $78.

lawnmowerman · January 29, 2009 2:08AM

<< 

I wonder if the seller bought it that way and passed the savings on to Matt, or if he did the work himself. Seems like a lot of work for $78. >>

I thought of that too Jim but check his reply to me that I posted earlier in the thread. He said he pulled this card himself.

1994 Pro Line Live auto cards did not come with stamps. Only serial numbers.

storm888 · January 29, 2009 2:25AM

"<< How exactly do you do a chargeback on a purchase from 3 years ago? "

//////////////////////////////

Easy to do.

The first step is to prepare an affidavit that recounts the events
that brought us here.

Numbered items:

1. bought the card (describe it in detail) on date and paid via whatever.
2. placed card in safe or whatever.
3. subsequently examined card and found it NG.
4. had card examined by experts who found it NG.
5. contacted seller, who denied liability and refused to remedy the fraud.
(Attach pics of fake and pics of real one. Get a letter from an expert stating
the thing is a "homemade fake.")

The doc needs to be artfully drafted in narrative form, and notarized. (Having
it done by a third-party (lawayer/paralegal) would cost more than the amount
in controversy.)

Send a demand letter to the "artist." Give him 3-bizdays to send a PP refund.
(The best letters are written by lawyers.)

If the refund is denied, send your whole packet of info to the CC company
and open a chargeback claim.

.................

Autographed items bear an implied warranty of authenticity FOREVER.
Ditto items sold as "genuine."

In litigation, the plaintiff could well be awarded the value of his bargain.
ie: the current value of the item if it was not FAKE.

...............

Sadly, it is as easy to prosecute a $10K claim as it is to maintain one for $78.00.

........

CC Chargebacks:

Sellers NOT selling fakes do NOT need to worry about the process being abused.
Honest sellers are given a full opportunity to defend their positions; including an
appeal process.

......................

I would also take my case to every internet board, if the seller did not refund fast.

..........

If my system of capital punishment for corrupt sellers was implemented,
it would only take a few days to solve the problem FOREVER. The crooks
would simply stop doing it, after the first public display of the consequences.

Of course, the same punishment would be handed down to buyers who
send back a box of rocks instead of the XBOX they bought.

...........
..............
................

In mid-2008, PayPal handled a CC CB that was, in part, five-years old.

A psycho secretary had been buying stuff on her employers CC for years.
Since she paid the bills, the boss never knew what was happening. When
he finally looked at some of the bills, he called the CC company and PP
froze HUNDREDS of sellers' accounts.

The FBI got into the mix. When they went to the secretary's house, they
found HUNDREDS of packages unopened and piled everywhere. The total
amount of the fraud was in the $250K+ range.

Most sellers finally either got their money or their merch back.

PP asked for DC/SC records to prove SP compliance. NEVER throw that
stuff away.

.......

lawnmowerman · January 29, 2009 2:59AM

Thank you storm!

bman90278 · January 29, 2009 3:02AM

Very well done Storm....If had a printout of the actual listing with a photo of your card, that would really help.

Matt, I wouldn't be surprised if one of our card collecting lawyers would help you by printing your statement on their letterhead.

Either way, I think Storm's advice is spot on.
b
r
i a
n

lawnmowerman · January 29, 2009 3:07AM

<< Very well done Storm....If had a printout of the actual listing with a photo of your card, that would really help.

Matt, I wouldn't be surprised if one of our card collecting lawyers would help you by printing your statement on their letterhead.

Either way, I think Storm's advice is spot on.
b
r
i a
n >>

That would be awesome!

WinPitcher · January 29, 2009 4:42AM

I'm pretty sure there is no time limit to dispute transactions on your credit card. I could be wrong though.

Matt it depends on the card, American Express can be forever, I'd look into though.

Steve

WinPitcher · January 29, 2009 4:49AM

FWIW he has 18 negs or neuts if you look him up in toolhaus.

Somewhat slimy IMO

Steve

lawnmowerman · January 29, 2009 4:52AM

I agree Steve.

storm888 · January 29, 2009 4:59AM

<< I'm pretty sure there is no time limit to dispute transactions on your credit card. I could be wrong though.

Matt it depends on the card, American Express can be forever, I'd look into though.

Steve >>

//////////////////////////////////////

The subject CB would be made on the basis of "fraud."

There can be no such allegation until "fraud" is discovered
by the victim. Thus, the clock starts at discovery; with certain
limitations/differences outlined in the link.

Clock Ticks From Discovery Date

.............

In general, the credit card companies don't want to argue over the
well settled issue. The crook can raise the issue as a defense, but
it usually flops.

The CC companies UAs ALL state a "time limit" on CBs. If they did not,
few honest merchants would want to accept credit cards. Those
limits, in general, are contrary to public policy and law when the
claim is based on "fraud."

While it is prudent and responsible for buyers to timely determine
if there is a problem with an item, the law does not usually punish
them for being slow to find the element of fraud.

rbdjr1 · January 29, 2009 5:49AM

Matt - I sent this message on ebay, maybe it will help you? It can't hurt!

rd

"....Hello mdghobbies! I'm a member of PSA Collector's Universe message boards and there is a thread about you selling a counterfeit 1994 Pro Line Live Brett Favre auto card. Normally I do not get involved in these types of threads to often, but Matt - the original poster aka: lawnmowerman, is a well respected member of the PSA message board community. If he says he received this bad card from you. Then almost everyone on the CU-PSA threads would believe him, and I do too, 100%! My suggestion is to come on the threads, offer him a refund for this item, as you most likely didn't know yourself it was a counterfeit! This will go a long way to show you are a stand-up guy. Sincerely, Bob trustee for: The Renaissance Trust. P.S. I do hope you do the right thing for Matt? ...."

rbdjr1 · January 29, 2009 6:04AM

Then Matt, I sent this!

rd

"...mdghobbies, I forgot to leave the Collector's Universe link, sorry, Bob:
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=702306 ..."

WinPitcher · January 29, 2009 6:05AM

Oh lord here we go.

Steve

lawnmowerman · January 29, 2009 6:08AM

<< Oh lord here we go.

Steve >>

One of the first things I did this morning after I posted this thread was send the seller a link

Thanks for looking out for me Bob

bman90278 · January 29, 2009 6:09AM

Maybe someone could buy one of their cheap cards and leave a neg feedback,

"This place sells fake cards, go to cu forums and read threads"

Gonblott · January 29, 2009 6:12AM

<< Oh lord here we go.

Steve >>

Uh-oh

Now the scum knows where we assemble!

HIDE!

lawnmowerman · January 29, 2009 10:29AM

Within the last hour, I received this email from the seller and the money is already back in my paypal account.

Thank you sir for chosing to do the right thing!

<< After thinking about the situation and putting myself in your shoes I have reconsidered my original offer and would be more than happy to refund the amount for the Favre card. I have been collecting cards for many years and would never knowingly sell a counterfied card and the only way that I feel that I can regain your confidence is to issue you a refund. If the card is indeed a counterfiet there is no need to send it back to me. Please send me your email address and I will issue the refund via paypal. >>

I just want to say thanks to all the board members that helped with advice and support

Thanks

Matt

lsutigers1973 · January 29, 2009 10:40AM

WOW!! Too cool Matt. I have some nice NY Giants cards you could spend the refund on.

TheHun · January 29, 2009 10:41AM

Matt (and Jim)

thanks for the heads up on the Classic autograph dangers.

I was contemplating an hockey autograph from one of the classic sets - it was cheap (which I might afford).

now I'm a bit wiser ...

cheers

Chuck

Gonblott · January 29, 2009 10:41AM

I love happy endings!

lawnmowerman · January 29, 2009 10:42AM

<< WOW!! Too cool Matt. I have some nice NY Giants cards you could spend the refund on. >>

I am running low on kitty litter box liners. I may take you up on that.

TNP777 · January 29, 2009 10:42AM

glad it ended well, Matt. Looks like rbd put the Holy fear in him.

Gonblott · January 29, 2009 10:43AM

Whats the saying?

Power in #'s?

rbdjr1 · January 29, 2009 10:45AM

I'm glad to hear that the seller, issued Matt a refund, even after three years!

bman90278 · January 29, 2009 10:53AM

Matt, that's great news. See what happens when you are CU's poster of the year!

brian

WinPitcher · January 29, 2009 11:04AM

Matt lol, do you think you should tone down the original post now?

Glad to hear it worked out.

Steve

lawnmowerman · January 29, 2009 11:10AM

<< Matt lol, do you think you should tone down the original post now?

Glad to hear it worked out.

Steve >>

Good call Steve

mdghobbies --- Another Ebay Seller THAT DID THE RIGHT THING..**UPDATE**

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mdghobbies --- Another Ebay Seller THAT DID THE RIGHT THING..UPDATE