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It's a small (numismatic) world!
RYK
Posts: 35,801 ✭✭✭✭✭
I recently had an exchange of emails with a dealer, Dealer A, one who is well-known to this forum, who acquired a small collection of coins that I collect. At the suggestion of another dealer-friend, I approached the Dealer A and asked if I could buy any or all of the coins in the group. The idea was that the dealer-friend and I would split the group, with me keeping part for my collection, and the dealer-friend marketing the others. The coins were out being graded when the conversation commenced, but Dealer A seemed enthusiastic about working with me, and when the grades came in, he emailed me with the coins, the grades, and the prices. I thought the prices were excessively high, I conferred with my dealer-friend, and we decided to pass on the whole group.
When I passed, Dealer A's parting shot was along the lines of "Your loss, nice coins sell quickly, take a hike, loser!" He did not say that, but this is what I read between the lines. He also indicated that a dealer bought these coins at the same price they were offered to me.
Well, lo and behold, I am perusing the inventory of Dealer B, one who is extremely well-known and liked by members of the forum (no, not Dealer F, another one
), and I see three of these coins in this Dealer B's inventory. There is no question that these are the same coins, and the pricing is considerably lower than what was offered to me. Substantially lower. Either Dealer A was fibbing, or Dealer B won't be in business long.
I am considering buying these from the well-liked dealer (B) at this very moment, but I am restraining myself. I felt like that the original dealer (A) was taking a shot at me with the pricing followed by a verbal shot and lie after I declined, and I do not want him to see any profit on my account. Of course, the way I feel about Dealer A, I would not buy a $20 bill from him if he were offering them for $10!
It's a small numismatic world, and you never know what the repercussions of a slight or insult will be later on. Collectors tend to have quite a memory when it comes to this stuff.
When I passed, Dealer A's parting shot was along the lines of "Your loss, nice coins sell quickly, take a hike, loser!" He did not say that, but this is what I read between the lines. He also indicated that a dealer bought these coins at the same price they were offered to me.
Well, lo and behold, I am perusing the inventory of Dealer B, one who is extremely well-known and liked by members of the forum (no, not Dealer F, another one
), and I see three of these coins in this Dealer B's inventory. There is no question that these are the same coins, and the pricing is considerably lower than what was offered to me. Substantially lower. Either Dealer A was fibbing, or Dealer B won't be in business long.I am considering buying these from the well-liked dealer (B) at this very moment, but I am restraining myself. I felt like that the original dealer (A) was taking a shot at me with the pricing followed by a verbal shot and lie after I declined, and I do not want him to see any profit on my account. Of course, the way I feel about Dealer A, I would not buy a $20 bill from him if he were offering them for $10!
It's a small numismatic world, and you never know what the repercussions of a slight or insult will be later on. Collectors tend to have quite a memory when it comes to this stuff.
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Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
That's a Dan Ratheresque use of quotation marks.
Where did you go hiking? Was it nice?
<< <i>Buying from Dealer B will not result in any more profit for Dealer A unless they are on consignment. Dealer A probably has already made his profit. You may as well go ahead and buy them from Dealer B if they are the price you are willing to pay.
>>
Agreed. Dealer A is no longer part of the equation. It's like if the coins were once owned by Idi Amin or something, it's not like buying them now is somehow supporting tyrannical despotism except insofar as their value during the time of his ownership was supported by the supposition of a market in general.
If you want the coins and are happy with Dealer B's pricing then go ahead and buy!!
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>That's a Dan Ratheresque use of quotation marks.
I wish I had come up with that!
~
"America suffers today from too much pluribus and not enough unum.".....Arthur Schlesinger Jr.
a loss, and sold the others (presumably privately) for a nice gain.
Without knowing exactly what Dealer A said to you, I can't conjecture on whether you have
right to take offense.
Now the question that remains is - did Dealer B end run you to Dealer A and snake the coins. If yes, AND you don't want to give your money to a snake, then by all means pass. There are plenty of coins around and if the doom-and-gloomers are right, there'll be more stuff on the market soon. That coupled with soft economy and the Chinese pushing away collectors with counterfeits (thus reducing demand), maybe coin prices will soften.
However, if you like the coins and the price, AND you can live with the fact that you are helping Dealer B flip the coins (to you) while at the same time either knowing or suspecting he snaked you, then buy them. But if you do, just like a coin with a defect that bugs you a little, you may find that in the future knowing you helped dealer B after he did you dirty might just be an agravation you don't want to live with. In that case pass.
For me, I'd call dealer B and just ask, dude, how did you end up getting these little beauties (sweet coins). I'd listen to his answer and decide if he is still my "well liked dealer B friend" or just another jerk with a business card. Then I'd make my decision. Jerk=pass.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
a fat wallet with no brains and vacuum the money out of him or her
as quickly as possible.
if it was me, i would buy at least one of the coins.. and of course
the one i liked the most.
the rest.. bah. they better be awesome to consider them.
<< <i>There is at least a remote possibility that dealer B is blowing out the "dogs" in the lot for
a loss, and sold the others (presumably privately) for a nice gain.
Without knowing exactly what Dealer A said to you, I can't conjecture on whether you have
right to take offense. >>
I would consider this to be the most likely scenario - particularly if you saw only three of the coins in Dealer B's inventory.
Dealer B likely bought the lot from Dealer A in toto and allocated the purchase price as he saw fit. Part of the lot went, and you are looking at the remnants.
Buy the coins from Dealer B, and sleep soundly.
Serious question: Is Dealer B the same dealer-friend you were working with to consummate the deal?
Serious question: Is it possible there was another buyer or auction that came between Dealer A and Dealer B, and thus Dealer A may not be lying after all?
Not so serious question: After this post, do you expect to get first shot at any other coins from Dealer A?
Dealer A offered coins to me at an excessively high price and dissed me when I passed.
Dealer-friend was the guy I was going to share the purchase with.
Dealer B was the dealer who is now selling the coins, at a much lower price.
Dealer F is Mark Feld, and he has nothing to do with this scenario.
It seems to me that Dealer A saw you as the Mark.
Also, Dealer A sounds a lot like Dealer L.
You are not a dealer and are not permitted to participate in potential dealer profits.
You pay collector prices or you don't get the coins.
Not all dealers operate on this basis but many do.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I wish I had come up with that!
If I were on top of my game, I would have written "That's a rather Danesque use of quotation marks."
I hate to say it, but there appears to be an unwritten law between dealers that if you are not a dealer you do not get dealer pricing. Looks like you should have had your dealer friend buy the whole lot and then you and him divide them up.
I
<< <i>How come Dealer B got a much greater deal than RYK?
Also, Dealer A sounds a lot like Dealer L. >>
Dealer A is not Dealer L. She has always treated me honestly and respectfully.
Just remember the players and stick to your gut feelings.
There are a lot of other fish in the sea and the guilty parties
will have a little less to spend on one of their many vacations because
of your lost sales.
<< <i>I have seen this same type of thing happen several times.
You are not a dealer and are not permitted to participate in potential dealer profits.
You pay collector prices or you don't get the coins.
Not all dealers operate on this basis but many do. >>
Looks like we are saying the same thing. This is 100% right, as wrong as it is. (The excuse I have heard back from dealers who do this, and most all do, is that they expect the favor to be passed back to them when the buying dealer has coins to sell.)
I think CCU's reply is a cover up.
K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
<< <i>at this point, my conclusion if I were collector R: the coins no longer matter to me and dealer A will never get my business or my recommendations EVER >>
Since almost every dealer (other than apparently Dealer F) does this I guess we can all go home and find something else to collect. It is simply the business model that we collectors have had to live with forever. Again, if you are a dealer you get dealer pricing. If you are a collector you don't. Ever wonder why dealers get first shot at the major shows and all the good stuff is gone by the time the public gets to come?
<< <i>
<< <i>at this point, my conclusion if I were collector R: the coins no longer matter to me and dealer A will never get my business or my recommendations EVER >>
Since almost every dealer (other than apparently Dealer F) does this I guess we can all go home and find something else to collect. It is simply the business model that we collectors have had to live with forever. Again, if you are a dealer you get dealer pricing. If you are a collector you don't. Ever wonder why dealers get first shot at the major shows and all the good stuff is gone by the time the public gets to come? >>
I'm not a dealer and yet I find nothing wrong with the above statement.
There will always be a 'trade' price for dealers and a different (slightly higher) price for collectors.
It's the same in most other businesses.
I attend most Ontario coin shows and I have no problem paying the 'collector' price (which is 20% off list) while a dealer can purchase the same coin for 30%-40% off of list.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
.....................................................
<< <i>Buy the coins. If you want, make sure Dealer A finds out that you bought them and what you paid. Dealer A might treat you more courteously next time. There's no advantage in holding a permanent grudge, and you may have taken offense where no slight was intended. >>
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Ken
Out Dealer A, buy the coins from Dealer B.
If you don't want to out Dealer A in public then maybe PM interested folks. I for one might not make a final buy-don't-buy from Dealer A decision based on your experience, but I would certainly be a bit more cautious should I be in the position of working with Dealer A.
Thanks,
Bob
Buy what you like from the people you like.
<< <i>
<< <i>at this point, my conclusion if I were collector R: the coins no longer matter to me and dealer A will never get my business or my recommendations EVER >>
Since almost every dealer (other than apparently Dealer F) does this I guess we can all go home and find something else to collect. It is simply the business model that we collectors have had to live with forever. Again, if you are a dealer you get dealer pricing. If you are a collector you don't. Ever wonder why dealers get first shot at the major shows and all the good stuff is gone by the time the public gets to come? >>
I guess it depends what the "excessive" markup was.
If Dealer A offers to sell a collection directly to a collecter for $50,000 but sells it instead to dealer B for $20,000 after the collector balks, I'd think Dealer A was being unreasonable (especially if Dealer B were willing to sell it to the collector for $25,000). Expecting collectors to pay 10 to 20% more than fellow dealers is reasonable, but expecting them to pay 50 to 100%+ more is crazy.
Obscurum per obscurius
<< <i>Let me clarify.
Dealer A offered coins to me at an excessively high price and dissed me when I passed.
Dealer-friend was the guy I was going to share the purchase with.
Dealer B was the dealer who is now selling the coins, at a much lower price.
Dealer F is Mark Feld, and he has nothing to do with this scenario.
Thank you for the explanation.
Seems to me that Dealer B was just in the right place at the wrong time and is really blameless here.
Dealer A, if all is at it seems to be, is someone that I would be very cautious of [and I would really like to know who Dealer A is, so please have your people contact my people, and leave IGWT out of it.
Respectfully...Mike
<< <i>Did dealer A tell you that you do not have enough money to collect coins?
I think CCU's reply is a cover up.
K
I thought so too, but I am assured that the use of the letter 'A' has no significance in this story, and was merely selected because it is near the beginning of the alphabet.
<< <i>
<< <i>Did dealer A tell you that you do not have enough money to collect coins?
I think CCU's reply is a cover up.
K
I thought so too, but I am assured that the use of the letter 'A' has no significance in this story, and was merely selected because it is near the beginning of the alphabet. >>
I will confirm that CCU is not a party to this story. However, if he would like to make a few phone calls on my behalf, I would be happy to write him into it, as Dealer C (of course). He's better off not getting involved, IMO.
Seems to me that Dealer B was just in the right place at the wrong time and is really blameless here.
B for "blameless"; I like it. Dealer B's only problem is doing business with Dealer A, and I really cannot fault him for it.
(1) Do Dealer A and Dealer B correspond with Position A and Position B for the edge lettering for the Presidential Dollars?
(2) Fortunately "Dealer A" is A and not B; otherwise we would have two Dealer B's, and we would be able to say: "Two B or not two B?" (with apologies to Shakespeare)
(3) I'm surprised no one has mentioned the obvious reference to The Wizard of Oz in the following quote:
<< <i>Dealer B likely bought the lot from Dealer A in toto and allocated the purchase price as he saw fit. Part of the lot went, and you are looking at the remnants. >>
(4) What makes this situation very similar to a certain 2-person musical group who performs dance songs? The answer is: "Because they both are _ _ _ _ _ _ _" The answer is 7 letters! THE FIRST CORRECT ANSWER TO THIS ONE GETS AN UNC. 2008 AMERICAN SILVER EAGLE.(U. S. entries only)
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.