Someone kindly explain, just how is it that .....

Boom · January 23, 2009 7:09AM

Searching PCGS First Strike 2009 American Silver Eagles AND
NGC Early Release 2009 American Silver Eagles -

Would/ COULD someone ... ANYONE convince me or otherwise explain
to me - given the prices these are realizing on ebay - HOW IN THE WORLD
it is even LOGICAL to pursue incurring the EXPENSE to have these coins "made"
(graded & labeled as FS or ER) <plus registered, insured Mail TO & FRO> ....

THEN take them to eBay where the prices I see being realized DO NOT EVEN COVER
said expenses? Besides that, then there are the ebay fees to list, final value fees,
PayPal fees and actual S/H expense!

How in the WORLD can one even entertain the thought of pursuing this,
with any realistic Hope of making ANY Profit, at all!?

What am I missing here? It makes NO SENSE to me but for the outside chance
that PERHAPS every now & then a 70 gets thrown in and "made"!

Insight?

Opinions?

I mean - REALLY!!

Feel free - by ALL MEANS!

Barndog · January 23, 2009 7:14AM

irrational exuberance

stckplunge · January 23, 2009 7:16AM

Well at the expense of making some people angry, I make money because I buy 100s of silver eagles, then prescreen them for the good ones and submit them to NGC/PCGS. The remaining ones I send back to the mint. My grading ratio of PF70 : PF69 is 7:3 (70%). So, 70% of the coins I sell are PF70s and the remaining PF69s I sell for just about any price.

After expenses each PF70 realizes between 60% and 110% profit. The PF69s end up costing me about $12.00 per coin in losses. So if I sell 1 PF70 and 1 PF69, I clear about $40-50 after expenses.

JC

Boom · January 23, 2009 7:27AM

After expenses each PF70 realizes between 60% and 110% profit. The PF69s end up costing me about $12.00 per coin in losses. So if I sell 1 PF70 and 1 PF69, I clear about $40-50 after expenses

Thanks. Pretty much as I deduced BUT what happens if NO 70s are made?

Would it then be a fair statement to say that if all you send in come back
as 69s, you've definitely lost money and are in RED Numbers?

Boom · January 23, 2009 7:29AM

Also noted * You're referring to Proofs.

What about "Regular Issue" American Silver Eagles?

braddick · January 23, 2009 7:32AM

<< irrational exuberance >>

Ahhhh, the best and most logical answers are generally the shortest.

Boom · January 23, 2009 7:35AM

HEY! How about some input/ insight from PCGS authorized Dealers that do this in BULK?

I'm serious. I want to know how anyone can profit in lieu of ALL EXPENSES.

Thank you!

Barndog · January 23, 2009 7:35AM

<< After expenses each PF70 realizes between 60% and 110% profit. The PF69s end up costing me about $12.00 per coin in losses. So if I sell 1 PF70 and 1 PF69, I clear about $40-50 after expenses

Thanks. Pretty much as I deduced BUT what happens if NO 70s are made?

Would it then be a fair statement to say that if all you send in come back
as 69s, you've definitely lost money and are in RED Numbers?

>>

I think he is saying that he has pretty good skills at picking out the 70s...70% of the time. So he only loses money if he doesn't do his job well (like many of us)

Boom · January 23, 2009 7:46AM

I am & have been closely monitoring ALL ebay activity regarding this -

from the BEST going rate for tubes to MS 69 (fancy labeled) by BOTH Services,

to Fancy Labeled MS 70. I see NO WAY ANY Profit can be made except for when

and IF 2 things come into play!

1- All the fancy labeled pieces cannot be making any profit UNLESS the coins
are being submitted IN BULK at a HEAVILY DISCOUNTED RATE - and THEN, it's
still TIGHT, given the price to purchase the Eagles from the Mint (a limited,
exclusive Group of merchant/ distributors.)

2- The ONLY OFFSET is that the submitter is GIVEN a 70 per every "x" amount.

How far OFF am I?

I feel it starting to warm up in here!

Let's talk.

lasvegasteddy · January 23, 2009 7:56AM

<<<What am I missing here? It makes NO SENSE to me but for the outside chance
that PERHAPS every now & then a 70 gets thrown in and "made"!>>>

many float around exactly out of this point noted

bulk sub's...the 70's make bank and the lesser's recoup even more on the back side

most i think are not the case and yeah...you bet...many may have come but more leave "the making 70's game"

threads like this inspire many
look at all the 70's

Boom · January 23, 2009 8:08AM

Thank you to the 4 individuals Out of the THOUSANDS OF MEMBERS WE HAVE HERE, including PCGS Licensed Dealers that have GUTS enough to answer a couple simple questions. I appreciate it.

I am watching & participating in some live auctions and doing simple Mathematics am able to quickly see that there MUST BE an "x" factor here as otherwise this is a total waste of time and money to the submitter.

Watching RAW pieces, Fancy Labeled pieces, TUBES etc - THE ONLY WAY a submitter is able to make ANY money is by getting a substantial break in fees (grading/ labeling) AND is thrown a 70 every certain amount to offset the aforementioned expenses! D'uh!

Gee - ya think!

Boom · January 23, 2009 8:26AM

**Prime example**

Had I just NOT bid on an ER 69 the piece would have been won for LESS than $25.
I made one bid and stopped. The front-runner (perhaps a shill) won the piece @ $25.06
ONLY because I made that One bid! PCGS is just a bit more but STILL NOT enough to even
cover expenses if the submitter is NOT getting getting a 70 every now & then & OR a HUGE
break in cost per Bulk submission.

This truly troubles me & I'd like to know - with all DUE Respect.

Some are being sold (Fixed Price listings w/ FREE S/H) <BTW, fixed price listings fvf are MORE
than AUCTIONED items> for less than $30. DO THE MATH! No WAY this guy is even breaking even,
ON THESE! Where he IS making it is if someone is caught up in an OCD for #s on inserts and is
CRAZY enough to spend MULTIPLES for so-called PERFECT 70s.

Hey, after all ... we ARE talking about 1 Troy Ounce of Silver Bullion, are we not!?

Is the substantial JUMP from "Near Perfect 69" with Fancy Labels to alleged "Perfect 70"
REALLY worth it? And what happens if the notorious SPOTTING PROBLEM manifests itself at
a later date on one of these 70s? HOW MUCH is PCGS going to PAY the owner for a Perfect
spotted, fancy labeled 70?

Boom · January 23, 2009 8:37AM

I just had one in the bag at $25.07 (already made with the Fancy Label)
for just a few seconds as right at the end someone outbid me - Oh, Boo-Hoo.

As I watch these I can see that the ONLY real profit (thus far) is by selling them RAW
OR by being fortunate enough to have someone buy a Perfect 70.

Boom · January 23, 2009 8:40AM

HEY! ANYBODY IN HERE? WHY AM I HAVING DIALOGUE WITH MYSELF?? HELLOOOOO!

FatMan · January 23, 2009 8:46AM

<< HEY! ANYBODY IN HERE? WHY AM I HAVING DIALOGUE WITH MYSELF?? HELLOOOOO!

>>

Hello right back at ya. I'm watching the thread because I have the same questions. It seems like the only ones laughing there way to the bank are the TPGs. Dealers are making slim profits and collectors will be asking why will you only give me 10% back of melt when it is time to sell.

IrishMike · January 23, 2009 8:52AM

Well for one thing Boom you showed up late on this. Its been that way for a few years, btw just a quick reminder not to miss your meds tonignt.

Over the years I become close friends with a few dealers and they told me 2-3 years ago it was a losing proposition unless you made PCGS 70's and big time loser with 69's. Maybe now with seemingly more 70's cranking out you can make some money at it, but its a delicate balance as the supply has to be kept low to insure profits.

Anyone that tells you that its profitable in the long run to sell first strike or whatever labels on less than 70 coins is not being honest. Of course those who sell moderns for their living or those who only collect moderns will chime in with their stories.

This one is mine and am sticking to it.

Boom · January 23, 2009 9:17AM

Thanks Fats & "Mike".

Simple question - simple answer, best summed up by what IM said & lasvegasteddy.

Fats, I respect you for saying this:

<< It seems like the only ones laughing there way to the bank are the TPGs. >>

Which basically was seconded by Irish Mike, VegasTeddy pretty well nailed it as well
but what gets me is there is absolutely NO venom or disrespect aimed at PCGS or NGC here -
yet despite this, NONE of the PCGS Authorized/ Licensed "Dealers" have chimed in.

What is this some hush-hush super confidential inside info or something whereby said
Dealers are SCARED to talk or are they FORBIDDEN TO SPEAK!?

I have a sincere question and have asked it with NO disrespect intended toward anyone -
definitely NONE towards PCGS, what-so-ever!

Meds, Mike? I'm headed for the meds in just a few minutes. I'm going to my Studio and
am going to BEAT the living daylights out of my drumset ( as seen in my avatar). It's a 20
piece, Double Bass Ludwig "Octa-Plus" set, set up exactly like Neil Peart's set from back in
the 80s. That's my Meds, my exercise/ cardiovascular and afterward I am going to hit the
HEAVY BAG till I can't lift my arms anymore. That's when I go for my "cool-down" walk on
the Golf Course right out my backyard gate. Wonderful Therapy, it is!

Lovin' every minute of it.

Follow the aforementioned with a long HOT bath soaking in Epsom Salt, with scented candles
and it's ALL GOOD!

Carry on Gents.

tahoe98 · January 23, 2009 9:19AM

<< HEY! ANYBODY IN HERE? WHY AM I HAVING DIALOGUE WITH MYSELF?? HELLOOOOO!

>>

...............we're being careful............................you may have a GUN!!!

Edscoin · January 23, 2009 9:23AM

<< HEY! ANYBODY IN HERE? WHY AM I HAVING DIALOGUE WITH MYSELF?? HELLOOOOO!

>>

Hey Boom, I'm here. I just don't know what to say.

pakasmom · January 23, 2009 9:26AM

That's me too, Ed. If Boom wants me to join the discussion he needs to pick a really simple subject and use small words.

Boom · January 23, 2009 9:40AM

<< ...............we're being careful............................you may have a GUN!!! >>

Well, of course I DO. I have several, as a matter of fact, along with Rifles & shotguns
but they are all locked in the Gun cabinet < loaded of course > except for the one here
at my desk. If would- be "Bad Boys" somehow get past my B_itch (female Pit), which I
seriously doubt, shame on them cause I'm not going to be victimized by ANYONE!

Guns are not Toys, boys. I'm going to buy a few more hand guns, most likley tomorrow.

Boom · January 23, 2009 9:47AM

All are registered to me and I have a permit to carry handguns at all times.

Boom · January 23, 2009 10:12AM

I'll be back ASAP. Meanwhile if anyone else wants to chime in - feel free.

The more perspectives shared - the better.

It's BOOM-Time.

Boom · January 23, 2009 1:44PM

Get back in there!

jsf · January 23, 2009 2:52PM

this is what I've been trying to make people realize for quite some time, shills appear in the strangest of places, and forms.

PCcoins · January 23, 2009 3:05PM

Hey Pitt, I have been wondering the same thing for some time now. There's no point in paying the expenses to slab modern coins in hope of actually getting back all 70s. Especially with ebay fees and now mandatory paypal fees. To much headache just to lose money. But just my 2c

pheh · January 23, 2009 3:27PM

Consider the following...

Many dealers try this submission often. Many of the 69s that dealers make out of their 70s go wholesale to other dealers. Some of those other dealers collect those 69s at rates which can, in bulk, make a profit as 69s. They sell them individually. They crack them out and sell them at market price. They sell them in sets of 69s.

Yes, we are talking about 100s, for many years. But if you have the customer base you certainly make out in the end. $1 here, $2 there, etc... it all adds up. eBay is just another venue.

Type2 · January 23, 2009 3:58PM

Can I play.

lonelyp · January 23, 2009 4:30PM

Hey Boom,

Another non-dealer, not even a wannabe giving you his .02 on this subject.

All I can say is that by selling me an MS-69 at or below cost you build up a happy customer base.

And E R, or F S, is BS anyway right?

Not much help I know.

Paul

PS
I'm also not really into certified coins anyway. I like my albums.

BlindedByEgo · January 23, 2009 4:34PM

Two words: tulip bulbs

RedTiger · January 23, 2009 5:19PM

Folks seem to be focusing too much on the small picture, the coins being sold at a loss, and not the big picture, that the submitter is likely making an overall profit. Those that are losing money time after time, will be gone soon enough. The big picture might include other venues where the coins are being sold at higher markups and Ebay serves as a vent for excess inventory. The big picture may include other mint issues where the profit is/was much greater and that covers any losses. Several have already mentioned that the PCGS 70s make money. On the later issues, the percentage of 70s has been relatively high (as compared to older issues), so the overall bulk submission is likely a money maker.

direwolf1972 · January 24, 2009 12:46AM

I know nothing of the First Strike game but I think it pretty much could be summed up by my thoughts on all numismatics in general.

Its a numbers game.

Some fools will throw their money away (its their money let em do as they like) at pure chance.

Some will break even based on some work and knowledge.

Some will get ahead due to lots of knowledge and work.

Sprinkle in a little luck to off-set any of the above and you have your answer.

Gemineye · January 24, 2009 1:12AM

Gee Boom I would venture to offer my thoughts on the subject of First Strike coins and 70 grade but it seems that these are very touchy feely subject matters.I think we all know the outcome after all is said .....

AUandAG · January 24, 2009 1:21AM

Hey Boom,
have you considered that 99% of the members on this board (might be a tad high there) have no interest
in bulk silver/gold? We're coin collectors and collect coins that are generally used in commerce. A lot of the
modern bulk stuff just does not interest us at all. So, there are actually a lot of subjects that don't get much
attention on the forum, and that's probably the reason.
bob

boyhowdy · January 24, 2009 5:29AM

Wrong forum. Sounds like you are a merchant, not a collector.

BigSteve

YaHa · January 24, 2009 6:12AM

I love pickles.

Get in there Boom and give them hell my boy!

Dill pickles are my favorite with chocolate milk.

The mixture of the two is call a quicker picker upper.

TUM d tum, tum, tums!!!!!!!!!!!!

Boom · January 24, 2009 6:28AM

Who? Me!?

I'm a collector enjoying my hobby that enjoys sharing coins, knowledge
and insight with other collectors, including many Dealers.

The thirst for Knowledge is insatiable & unquenchable.

I have always been the type that wants to know what, why & how,
not at all afraid to ask questions or to say "I don't know" while
intending to TRY to find out.

For several years I have wondered, given the going rates -
and expenses ... seeing the results, HOW it is that one can do
this and make out, justifying the expense & effort, without
getting burned.

Consistently it always returns to the same ends. There MUST BE
a marked discount in having such "made" AND there must be a 70
every "x" amount of coins submitted that INSURES against "LOSS"!

There have been many very good, honest answers & opinions given here.

Thanks to all who offered their insight and opinions.

InTheRaw · January 24, 2009 2:05PM

Make no mistake, PCGS and NGC have their loyalties to DEALERS within the US, once they know they deciet them into consiracy of junk and semi junk coins due to their perception of so-called semi-precious junk, then lets move on to the consumner at home... They knew if they could /can get enough stupid people to pay their stupid fee's. (especially at the beginning)...to grade their coins, it would be a conglomerate.....

InTheRaw · January 24, 2009 2:08PM

There ONLY gain of money would only come from dealers..........which it did.....in masses, but at a SERIOUS discount that NO poor, sdoul would know.

InTheRaw · January 24, 2009 2:13PM

Once they realized that once in their slabs, prices brought more, it was a frenzy to a scammed filed market.....

nicetoning42107 · January 25, 2009 1:04AM

Of course the submitter will lose money on the 69s. But the number of 70s they get is enough to offset those losses plus go into the green area.

Boom · January 25, 2009 5:57AM

Two quick points addressed to "Intheraw"

1- Seeing you've been a member here since 2006, yet have a post count only in the 20s,
I'm SURE you had some point to make HOWEVER, I am having a difficult time discerning exactly
what that might be! THREE RARE CONSECUTIVE POSTS!?

Try using spell check - PLEASE use correct vocabulary and punctuation or at LEAST some
sort of recognizable slang or jargon.

2- Though I am somewhat "honored" that this thread evoked RARE posts from you, I would
ask that you NOT insult anyone - MOST OF ALL - OUR HOST - as this was posted sincerely -
with no negativity intended and has been carrying on quite well without such comments.

The question has been asked - and to a large degree ... answered, without malice or insult.
Please refrain from insulting accusations and or inuendoes. This thread was NOT started with
intent to commence name calling or to make accusations.

If you're going to post here, please keep it polite - with meaningful comments and or sincere
questions, without personal "Agenda"!

Thank you.

I appreciate it.

Someone kindly explain, just how is it that .....

Comments

Leave a Comment