Your thoughts on which countries Krause is overpriced and/or underpriced.

bidask · January 3, 2009 12:08PM

I really don't know.

newsman · January 3, 2009 2:11PM

East Germany -- overpriced. Try selling one at anywhere near the Krause values.

thelawnet · January 3, 2009 9:09PM

The coins of Riau and Irian Barat are both underpriced relative to what collectors will pay on ebay.

coinkat · January 3, 2009 10:06PM

China

Poland

Russia

Pre- 1815 French coinage... especially the 100 Days 5 Francs

However, all of that could change

I don't think it is fair or right to say across the board that one contry is overvalued or undervalued. I think on a series by series and date by date review, that would tell a fascinating story... as an example, I still believe the 1903 GB Half Crown is is undervalued...

satootoko · January 4, 2009 12:36AM

<< I don't think it is fair or right to say across the board that one contry is overvalued or undervalued. >>

Right on!

For example just try selling a Japanese post WWII coin, or buying a Japanese Occupied Territories item, at Krause prices.

thelawnet · January 4, 2009 12:57AM

<< 

<< I don't think it is fair or right to say across the board that one contry is overvalued or undervalued. >>

Right on!

For example just try selling a Japanese post WWII coin, or buying a Japanese Occupied Territories item, at Krause prices. >>

Do you mean the Japanese Occupied Territories coins are too cheap in Krause?

I saw some of those weird sen coins they never managed to ship to Indonesia recently at the Krause prices.

satootoko · January 4, 2009 12:06PM

<< Do you mean the Japanese Occupied Territories coins are too cheap in Krause? >>

That's been my experience.

<< I saw some of those weird sen coins they never managed to ship to Indonesia recently at the Krause prices. >>

Where, where?????

gecko109 · January 4, 2009 12:31PM

Just try to buy ANY silver proof panda at even double Krause!

7Jaguars · January 4, 2009 12:39PM

Well, I suggest that those that criticize contribute their documented value updates.

coinkat · January 4, 2009 12:49PM

And the editors at Krause would listen to suggestions from the little people such as myself that their valuations on some coins were not as I value them?

I think I see the glass as have empty on that prospect...

thelawnet · January 4, 2009 1:23PM

<< 

<< Do you mean the Japanese Occupied Territories coins are too cheap in Krause? >>

That's been my experience.

<< I saw some of those weird sen coins they never managed to ship to Indonesia recently at the Krause prices. >>

Where, where????? >>

Had a look, couldn't remember.

A 1943 10 sen on ebay for $370 though

ebay

Perhaps you could make an offer.

cladking · January 4, 2009 1:58PM

A lot of the prices are simply ridiculous. Some even appear
to be PC. Some of the markets are in a formative phase but
that's no excuse to list unavailable coins for next to nothing.

They raised a lot of the silver prices in 1980 to reflect bullion
increases but never lowered them. Now with silver going up
again this is probably minor. They cut South Africa about that
time.

There is no rule of thumb though with the pricing since it tends
to be all over the board.

7Jaguars · January 4, 2009 2:15PM

I think the British are not too bad pricewise.

One funny one is an unloved Franklin Mint issue: the Belize mule 1982 10 dollar coin has a mintage of 3 (!) listed at 25.00 in unc.!

Overall I think they have to be conservative and let crazy auction prices settle where they may, Milennia, etc. be damned. A funny note on the Brit coins is the pound / dollar ratio (and euros for that matter too) is extremely volatile with a range of over 2.00:1 to about 1.47:1.

satootoko · January 4, 2009 3:30PM

<< ebay

Perhaps you could make an offer. >>

The day I buy something "rare" from China hasn't come around yet. I may be missing some good buys, but I know I'm skipping some horrible ones!

coinkat · January 4, 2009 8:46PM

As a sweeping generalization, Britain is not bad. There are specific dates that are just off and I think people do not appreciate the rarity of the coin... besides the 1903 half crown, the 1697 Crown is probably the greatest under appreciated rarity in milled British coinage

BCNumismatics · January 6, 2009 7:48PM

The coins of both Kiribati & Tuvalu are extremely underpriced.The same thing goes for the 50 Francs from the New Hebrides,& the coins of the Principality of Hutt River (Hutt River Province Principality) from the 5c. to the $1.

Aidan.

7Jaguars · January 6, 2009 8:24PM

CK - I think the 17th C. bits have not been updated too recently. As far as the 1903 halfcrown, these are not as uncommon as people think (IMO) as I have had a number that would grade 45 and above, up to and through the MS63. One problem for Krause is that in the world coins they do not list values by mint state number, and not according to our 1-70 system which means that an excetpionally high mint state example would definately NOT be the average for "uncirculated"(I think this might be too unwieldy though). Another huge issue I would imagine is what value should be listed for the scarcer bits - auction prices can only be a part of this, as just as with American coins, these do not reflect the average values for coins necessarily.

As I am very familiar with the 19th and 20th C. bits, I would like to know what your opinion on values for the '03 halfcrown are by grade. I would venture to guess that the next year (2010) will show rises in the British series; also the original question was opinio

n on Krause prices, so the sweeping generalization is in character with the original post.

Another problem is that of necessity there is likely to be a lag time of close to 18 months between when catalogue values are derived and when the catalogue reaches the hands of the collector - can you imagine what the value of these coins will be 18 months from now? If so, you ought to be betting on stocks, and I would personally hate to do that.

Basically, IMO, the people over there at Krause would likely take input from those qualified that can buttress their opinions as to values. I think it likely that many on this board might be able to help; quite naturally I could see them having resistance to dealers who might have vested interests in value. As I said in an earlier post, I think it much easier to criticize and a much better idea to at least attempt to be part of the solution.

coinkat · January 6, 2009 8:51PM

please sell me one of the 1903 half crowns

7Jaguars · January 6, 2009 9:33PM

Retain only one slabbed and possibly one around 45, but traded two last year as part of a multi-deal for a "special" piece. If you are serious I will take a look on the second of those; I do wish I had not traded the other 63 but that was the only way I could get the bit I got, if you know what I mean.

Silvereagle82 · January 6, 2009 9:38PM

Gold coin prices are low across the board .. in most cases extremely low, particuliarly for UNC+.
When using the books I always adjust the price accounting for the bullion price difference.

thelawnet · January 6, 2009 10:00PM

<< Gold coin prices are low across the board .. in most cases extremely low, particuliarly for UNC+.
When using the books I always adjust the price accounting for the bullion price difference. >>

Yes that is true. For super rarities (in five figures plus), prices can be double. On less rare stuff you just need to add in extra bullion value - a $400 coin with $200 worth of bullion at the old price is probably a $600 coin with BV of $400.

lordmarcovan · January 7, 2009 5:48PM

Modern West German and reunified Germany seems grossly inflated.

Vichy French aluminum coins and WW2 German-occupied Belgian zinc coins are likewise a bit overvalued. A lot of WW2 German coins issued for occupied countries seem overpriced, though I am sure some are legitimately scarce issues. A lot aren't, though- and zinc is such a crappy metal for coinage.

17th and 18th century minors across the board, whether base metal or silver, seem undervalued, particularly given the prices on a lot of modern stuff. There are lots of British, Spanish, French, and other coppers that have catalog values of five bucks or less in FINE, even though the coins are seldom seen better than G-VG in many cases.

Hypothetical situation (but an all too common one). Let's say you have five bucks to spend and you're going through a dealer's pick bin. Everything is correctly graded and priced strictly according to Krause. Would you rather have a typical UNC aluminum Vichy French coin, or a VG French copper of Louis XVI from the late 1700s, or its counterpart, a British halfpenny of George III? Seems a no-brainer to me.

Heck, there are a lot of much more modern minor coins that have catalog values of $3-5 in circulated grades like XF, while once again, a better-than-average VG to Fine 1700s copper is worth the same... or less. Not long ago, the smaller Spanish Colonial silver denominations (half-reales to 2-reales) were similarly undervalued... and grossly so. Of course you cannot buy them for Krause price, usually, unless you are lucky. Their time as "sleepers" might be over with, though, largely thanks to their being promoted as "US colonial" coins.

7Jaguars · January 8, 2009 12:53PM

Tk - you can get an "EF/GEF" 1903 halfcrown at www.colincooke.com for 2995 pounds sterling.

coinkat · January 9, 2009 11:53AM

What is the new price in Krause in EF and Unc in Krause?

7Jaguars · January 10, 2009 2:15AM

Hmmm, will have to check on that or maybe someone else can help. '03 Uncs are not 6k USD though. I think Uncs on the -05 are 10k+ in the book however, and as I look at my Cooke list it is a 1905 and NOT an '03 for January.

An interesting point is what should be the value for EF pieces of either; one big problem is the Brit EF and ours are VERY different as you all probably know. I have bought EF coins from Spink that have gotten PCGS 62 even conservatively graded by the latter and bought an GEF 1926 mod penny from them some years ago that "P" has graded MS65RB.

Obviously there is a gap and I think Krausy uses more the system for US graded coins, and so values lower than we might expect....

coinkat · January 10, 2009 2:32AM

There is alittle distinction between US and UK granding standards and on the surface it is easy to understand but very difficult to explain...

I have the 2006 edition and the EF price for a 1903 1/2 crown is 800 and unc is 2500. The 1905 is 1200 in EF AND 4000 UNC

7Jaguars · January 10, 2009 3:27AM

These have gone up considerably however in the last two to three years....

coinkat · January 18, 2009 11:03AM

I was at Borders today and picked up a new Krause edition. the 1903 GB 1/2 Crown was listed in Krause at $850... that sounds alittle cheap in the Coinkat book

Doogy · January 18, 2009 11:21AM

<< I was at Borders today and picked up a new Krause edition. the 1903 GB 1/2 Crown was listed in Krause at $850... that sounds alittle cheap in the Coinkat book >>

agree 100%

I will say that what Krause neglects to "value" are coins that widely exist in BU, but they only list the prices in UNC. Take the Victorian British coins for instance; NGC and PCGS has graded a ton of BU/GEM British material from this era, with another ton

still extant that doesn't reside in plastic. However, much of the values show only an UNC and leaves the BU to navel gazing and speculation (or the keen collector with an appetite for analyzing auction results

)

BCNumismatics · January 18, 2009 11:44AM

I agree that some of the pricing in Krause is over the place.What really annoys me is that for some countries,they list prices in B.U.,but not in Unc.,considering that B.U. is not used as a grade on the 7 point scale that we use over here in New Zealand.

In England,they use the 7 point scale as well,even though a British slabber has taken the confusing 70 point scale of the Sheldon system to the extreme,& come up with an even more confusing 100 point scale.Slabbing's ridiculous,in my view.

Aidan.

IloiloKano · January 18, 2009 2:20PM

Aidan, the 70 point scale representation for BU is supposed to be MS-65, Choice UNC is (again, supposed to be) MS-63 with UNC being MS-60.

Of course, with many coppers being MS-65BN, it would be a little difficult for them to be "Brilliant" Uncirculated.

BCNumismatics · January 18, 2009 2:48PM

Steve,
That may be the case,but what is wrong with the simple 7 point grading system?

One country whose coins are surprisingly underpriced is,surprisingly,Zimbabwe.I can guess that the 2003 $10 & $25 coins (which disappeared from circulation within a month after their release as part of the futile 'Currency Reform' of the 1st. of August 2008) will be listed at stupidly cheap prices.

Aidan.

7Jaguars · January 19, 2009 1:49AM

Interesting, I wonder if there was an explanatory bit as a preamble to the Victorian bits giving a split and explanation of the Unc. and BU and more or less defining them as 60 and 63. I do not think there would be room for much else.

I do challenge the notion that there are plenty of gem Unc. Vicky pieces out there though, and would extend the argument to red color with regards to the bronze bits.

Sometimes I think a 7 point grading system would be nice, or its equivalent as I just don't see the big price jumps with micrograding differences such as between 66 and 67.

TK - I do believe the next round of Krauzy will have an upturn in the better bits - hey, maybe that will be just in time for a market residence and then prices will be high.

cladking · January 19, 2009 8:27AM

<< I agree that some of the pricing in Krause is over the place.What really annoys me is that for some countries,they list prices in B.U.,but not in Unc.,considering that B.U. is not used as a grade on the 7 point scale that we use over here in New Zealand.

In England,they use the 7 point scale as well,even though a British slabber has taken the confusing 70 point scale of the Sheldon system to the extreme,& come up with an even more confusing 100 point scale.Slabbing's ridiculous,in my view.
>>

My big problem with grading over here is that it's too inflexible. It
can't distinguish between a worn well made coin and a nice poorly
made coin. Even the uncirculated grades tell you almost nothing
about the appearance of a coin.

The main value of slabbing is the expert verification and protection
in many cases.

It seems the New Zealand is one of the countries that is underpriced
for the main part. They lowered prices years ago and have been ve-
ry slow to bring them back up and this goes especially for nice silver
in circulated grades.

BCNumismatics · January 19, 2009 8:54AM

<< 

<< I agree that some of the pricing in Krause is over the place.What really annoys me is that for some countries,they list prices in B.U.,but not in Unc.,considering that B.U. is not used as a grade on the 7 point scale that we use over here in New Zealand.

In England,they use the 7 point scale as well,even though a British slabber has taken the confusing 70 point scale of the Sheldon system to the extreme,& come up with an even more confusing 100 point scale.Slabbing's ridiculous,in my view.
>>

My big problem with grading over here is that it's too inflexible. It
can't distinguish between a worn well made coin and a nice poorly
made coin. Even the uncirculated grades tell you almost nothing
about the appearance of a coin.

The main value of slabbing is the expert verification and protection
in many cases.

It seems the New Zealand is one of the countries that is underpriced
for the main part. They lowered prices years ago and have been ve-
ry slow to bring them back up and this goes especially for nice silver
in circulated grades. >>

Sam,
You are right.Krause is way off the mark as far as pricing New Zealand coins goes.This also includes the prices for the decimal coins as well.

In 2007,the 2006 'Old Coins' from New Zealand (5c. to 50c.) were priced in Krause in grades below Unc.,even though the coins were only issued in sets,due to the withdrawal of the old coins from late 2006.

Fiji & New Guinea are also extremely underpriced as well.This should change in 2010 or 2011,as Fiji is also withdrawing its old coins this year,as part of the exercise to drive the 1c. & 2c. coins from circulation.

Aidan.

Stork · January 19, 2009 9:16AM

If I want to buy it, the catalog value is too high. If I want to sell it, the value is too low. Other than that, I don't know.

Cathy

cladking · January 20, 2009 2:00AM

<< 

Fiji & New Guinea are also extremely underpriced as well.This should change in 2010 or 2011,as Fiji is also withdrawing its old coins this year,as part of the exercise to drive the 1c. & 2c. coins from circulation.
>>

Fiji is terrible especially for the moderns. Dates from the '80's just aren't
seen in unc and even the earlier issues are rarely seen.

BCNumismatics · January 20, 2009 2:06AM

Sam,
Do you agree with me that the coins of the New Hebrides are also underpriced? I reckon that they are,especially for the 50 Francs & the 1982 1 Franc,2 & 5 Francs.

Aidan.

7Jaguars · January 20, 2009 3:39AM

Aidan,

I would seriously recommend that you tender to Krause your recommendations for revision to the values of New Hebrides et al.

Overall, I think it must be kept in consideration that there are different values in different places for the same bit (coin). Also, grading standards vary a good deal from place to place. I think also that there are variances in price based on retail and wholesale - I believe that Krausy is primarily based on retail, but as an example try taking a New Hebrides 50 franc of any date to a dealer in this country and see what they will offer (and what they would be willing to sell it for); they would not care about date at all.

I will take another series, and that would be the Falklands, where some of the minor bits are much more rare by date than others....

cladking · January 20, 2009 4:36AM

<< 
Do you agree with me that the coins of the New Hebrides are also underpriced? I reckon that they are,especially for the 50 Francs & the 1982 1 Franc,2 & 5 Francs.

>>

Probably, but it's a very tough call with these for me and I
don't feel competent to comment.

My observation on these is that they were available in this
area back in the mid-'70's to a limited extent. But I haven't
seen any in many years and don't pay much attention to this
country on fixed price lists.

I'm sure I don't own any of the 1982 dated coins or I'd rem-
ember that. I believe I have a 50F or two put away.

So many of the moderns are underpriced that it's probably
safe to say they are. A good rule of thumb I've found from
decades of looking is "what you see is what you get". If you
find any modern unc it's probably common or nearly common.
Just about everything else is scarce or rare. I've put a lot of
work into trying to find 50c and $1 coins and often never find
one at all. People who expect coins like the New Hebrides
coins to be common in New Hebrides are going to be wrong
most of the time. The home market seems to be the worst
place to look usually.

cladking · January 20, 2009 4:50AM

<< 

I would seriously recommend that you tender to Krause your recommendations for revision to the values of New Hebrides et al.

Overall, I think it must be kept in consideration that there are different values in different places for the same bit (coin). Also, grading standards vary a good deal from place to place. I think also that there are variances in price based on retail and wholesale - I believe that Krausy is primarily based on retail, but as an example try taking a New Hebrides 50 franc of any date to a dealer in this country and see what they will offer (and what they would be willing to sell it for); they would not care about date at all.

I will take another series, and that would be the Falklands, where some of the minor bits are much more rare by date than others.... >>

I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from contributing to Krause and
this goes double for someone as knowledgeable as BCNumismatics, but
there seems to be more at work in the prices than a simple lack of know-
ledge of the markets. Krause's World Coin News used to alert collectors
quite frequently to the unavailability of many modern coins. Many of these
articles were written by Paul Green but there were some guest writers, one
of whom mentioned the 1990 Fijian 50c. Of course, he also said most of the
modern Fiji was tough in unc.

I think there are numerous reasons that they haven't done a better job of
reflecting true prices and true scarcity. In their defence in many cases the
markets are just so thin that you can't find a buyer for a rare coin at a high-
er price anyway. It would be highly misleading to value a coin at a high lev-
el merely because it's rare.

More likely is that it's primarily inertia. They got in the habit of updating on-
ly a few countries each year and it would be a burden to raise the price of
moderns on a wodespread basis. They don't have extremely good price
discovery and refuse to even consider fixed price lists for input. This creates
the odd situation of the 1982 Irish 50P listing for $3 in Krause and appearing
for as much as $200 on fixed price lists (if you can find it).

Last year they didn't change much of anything giving the impression of quiet
in one of the most explosive markets anywhere.

bidask · May 22, 2011 11:51AM

Any new thoughts?

icsoccer · May 22, 2011 1:51PM

Chinese 1890's to 1930's undervalued...sometimes by multiples.
GB Trade dollars...low...low...low
South American.....some low
Mexican 8 Reales (higher grade)...low
I agree with prior opinions that prices, high or low, still vary within each country...some more than others.

Australia proofs...from the 50's...high

IMHO

OzzyAndy · May 22, 2011 8:22PM

German Empire prices in Krause usually around double what you pay.

Bjorn · May 23, 2011 6:27AM

<< 

<< 

<< I agree that some of the pricing in Krause is over the place.What really annoys me is that for some countries,they list prices in B.U.,but not in Unc.,considering that B.U. is not used as a grade on the 7 point scale that we use over here in New Zealand.

In England,they use the 7 point scale as well,even though a British slabber has taken the confusing 70 point scale of the Sheldon system to the extreme,& come up with an even more confusing 100 point scale.Slabbing's ridiculous,in my view.
>>

My big problem with grading over here is that it's too inflexible. It
can't distinguish between a worn well made coin and a nice poorly
made coin. Even the uncirculated grades tell you almost nothing
about the appearance of a coin.

The main value of slabbing is the expert verification and protection
in many cases.

It seems the New Zealand is one of the countries that is underpriced
for the main part. They lowered prices years ago and have been ve-
ry slow to bring them back up and this goes especially for nice silver
in circulated grades. >>

Sam,
You are right.Krause is way off the mark as far as pricing New Zealand coins goes.This also includes the prices for the decimal coins as well.

In 2007,the 2006 'Old Coins' from New Zealand (5c. to 50c.) were priced in Krause in grades below Unc.,even though the coins were only issued in sets,due to the withdrawal of the old coins from late 2006.

Fiji & New Guinea are also extremely underpriced as well.This should change in 2010 or 2011,as Fiji is also withdrawing its old coins this year,as part of the exercise to drive the 1c. & 2c. coins from circulation.

Aidan. >>

Can't actually agree on the New Zealand coins, at least for the 50% silver issues from 1933 to 1946 - I have never been able to sell the threepence, sixpence and shilling coins anywhere near Krause values...

--Bjorn

Bjorn · May 23, 2011 6:28AM

<< German Empire prices in Krause usually around double what you pay. >>

I agree on this, particularly for circulated issues...

--Bjorn

CollectorBob · May 23, 2011 7:39AM

India, especially higher grade EIC 1/2 Rupees - typically go for an order of magnitude above Krause!

marcmoish · May 23, 2011 11:40AM

17th and 18th century minors across the board, whether base metal or silver, seem undervalued, particularly given the prices on a lot of modern stuff. There are lots of British, Spanish, French, and other coppers that have catalog values of five bucks or less in FINE, even though the coins are seldom seen better than G-VG in many cases.

Still true today - even more so, and across the board - especially in AU-UNC grades - most are multiples over Krause.

Palestine Mandate (1927-1946) all dates - entire series (all denoms) in UNC is way under-priced and typically selling for 3-4 times Krause.

coinkat · May 24, 2011 11:32AM

German Empire-

For the common material Krause is steep. For rare dates, I am not so sure.

MrOrganic · May 24, 2011 12:21PM

thanx

was wondering about india

Bjorn · May 27, 2011 2:11AM

<< German Empire-

For the common material Krause is steep. For rare dates, I am not so sure. >>

You are right for any common and/or lower grade stuff - in the very best grades, perhaps they approach or even exceed KM prices.

Your thoughts on which countries Krause is overpriced and/or underpriced.

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