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1928 Saint - copper spots - opinions
twister2
Posts: 52 ✭✭
What do you all make of these copper spots? Do you feel they hinder or add to this coins appearance? Feel free to guess the grade also.
( photo skills, as always, a work in progress)
Mike
( photo skills, as always, a work in progress)
Mike
0
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A couple years ago I got a 1907 High Relief $20 gold on consignment. It was a really attractive PCGS MS-64, and I really liked it. When I showed it to a couple of other dealers, they immediately zeroed into a couple of copper stains that were on the reverse in the area of the sun. To these dealers the minor copper staining was a BIG problem.
Unfortunately your photo is a bit out of focus. But from what I can see, the copper spots on the obverse above Ms. Liberty's left arm, on the ray and on the her skirt and leg are the type of thing that makes it harder to sell the coin.
On the positive side one dealer I know claims that he has never seen copper stains on a counterfeit gold coin. If that's really true, the marks could be something positive.
In fact, I often LIKE them because it's a sign of originality.
Looks like a dirty 65.
K*I*L*L*E*R
I can't remember ever seeing a Saint posted here that was a POP1 and had never seen!!
edited to add: the OP coin looks like a 65 to me.
my early American coins & currency: -- http://yankeedoodlecoins.com/
<< <i>KILLER 09-S!!!
K*I*L*L*E*R >>
Awesome in the extreme.
<< <i>Speaking of adjustment marks, what is your reaction to the adjustment marks on this 1795 Flowing Hair dollar? >>
Knowing what they are, one looks past them. They are invisible to me.
In fact, I bought the coin below, because it was adjusted several times, on both sides. It must have started out as a very overweight planchet, and I can imagine the frustration of the person (a woman, from what I've read) who weighed it, filed it, weighed it again, filed it again, over and over.
my early American coins & currency: -- http://yankeedoodlecoins.com/
As for the adjustment marks discussed above, they are okay with me.
Tonelover - What can I say, that coin puts mine in its place!
My 28 is in NGC MS66 plastic.
I UNDERSTAND the "adjustment" lines on old dilver and accept it 'as made". Why is copper not so accepted? It's far more "as made"?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Ever Onward
1927-S MS67!! One of the rarest dates, top pop ONE!
WOOOO HOOOO!
<< <i>is that detail (knee area) supposed to be there for all Saints? Seems even gem coins have strike issues that that one does not! >>
Yes, but this is a superb coin!
It was definately one of the first strikes and definately hand picked by a mint executive for the Goddard/Connecticut State Library collection.
This coin is owned by Dr. Steve Duckor. It's among the finest Saints in existence IMO.
Crazy nice.
I wish I had more for show and tell but the one I posted is the best one I have.
Back to my lurking.....
All of mine are original surface specimens. Nice specimens on this thread, too.
How do copper spots show originality? They don't dip out, they don't get wiped out by whizzing a coin, so how do they show originality?
Some copper spots are worse than others..some bother me some don't.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
<< <i>Trying to learn here.
How do copper spots show originality? They don't dip out, they don't get wiped out by whizzing a coin, so how do they show originality?
>>
I was wondering that too...
Interesting about copper on gold...it shows up within the first year or two as the unmixed copper on the surface tries to oxidize but is inhibited by the gold to a degree. After that no more new copper emerges so it's an early-stage occurrnce. Many of the most prominent copper-Saint coins are also some of the highest grades!! This would lead one to conclude that they were first strikes. The finest 1908-S, the pictured 1909-S, 1921, 1922-S, 1924-S, 1925-S, 1927-S all have copper spots. It seems too prevalent that the best all have copper. Conclusions can drawn.
Also the fact that San Francisco gold has this attribute more has caused some speculation that perhaps they weren't heating the gold quite hot enough to assimilate the copper 100%. It makes sense. Also SF gold has trace copper in it as opposed to Southern gold which contains traces of silver and explains the green-gold color of many of those coins. All in all, I find this aspect of the gold coinage fascinating and I'm not one to allow the dealers who have been dipping coins to remove stuff, copper included, to convine me to drink the "no copper" KoolAde!!. I know what the best and brightest own and they love copper on gold.
There's no such thing as copper that's distracting or not IMO. It simply is THERE. Learn to love it again. Less coins would be stripped of their originall surfaces. As buyers our mission should be to reject coins that hxve had this done if it's noticeable.
ASK fir copper spotted gold and Viva la Revolucion!
<< <i>Interesting how people don't mind the "adjustment" marks on old dollars but were "taught" to not like copper on gold!
I UNDERSTAND the "adjustment" lines on old dilver and accept it 'as made". Why is copper not so accepted? It's far more "as made"? >>
People often confuse "fads" with "originality."
Maybe S mint coins are more prone to them. *shrug*
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set
<< <i>1924 MS68 pcgs pop1
Maybe S mint coins are more prone to them. *shrug* >>
Sorry to the OP.....saintguru's 1909-S assessment was awe inspiring!!!
Placid's 1924 is plain sick!!!!!
GREAT THREAD!!!!
I love copper on gold!
<< <i>Unfortunately in the generic coin market copper spots are "persona non grata".....They demand a discount and in some cases cannot be sold for published prices.....Rare dates are a hit and miss and depends on the whim of the collector I suppose and the specific coin. I certainly wouldn't mind a 1927-s in MS67! >>
GENERIC!! How middle-class.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
GoldBully - No need for apologies on the course of the thread (but thanks) - educational and I like it. I was actually hoping to get responses from some particular members and they did not disappoint.
I know that the pics of exceptional coins are there to discuss the issue I brought up. All good.
Thanks to those who guessed a grade - you guys are good!
I hope to post more spotted Saints in the future.
Mike
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Years ago I had an otherwise very 1926 Indian quarter eagle that had a large blueish copper stain at the base of the Indian's bust. I could not sell that coin for decent money even though the market prices had gone up sharply. For the first and only time I've used them I sent the coin to NCS. They dipped off the spot and I sold the coin at a discounted price.
them on ordinary coins. extra special coins would take more consideration.
<< <i>Please don't take this personally, but the copper stains on that 1895 double eagle are over the limit. I would not purchase that coin because of them. >>
And yet I find them amazing!!
That's why there are horse races and wars.
<< <i>
<< <i>Please don't take this personally, but the copper stains on that 1895 double eagle are over the limit. I would not purchase that coin because of them. >>
And yet I find them amazing!! >>
SG so you like the 1895 as you have a Racoon Fetish
<< <i>Just don't you start speculating on what fetishes I may or may not have, pal.
Sorry my bad... that could be a lengthy couch trip!
That 1895 has very very strong spots in very very unfortunate locations in my opinion. Liberty has Ebola and is bleeding from her orifices. I cannot watch. It is painful to see.
Physically, I have no problem with what they represent. But psychologically, I would say that there are better and worse locations for those spots and that does affect what I am willing to pay. I would not be into this 1895 double eagle because of the bleeding eye thing.
I have no problem with the 1928 in the OP. The 1909 that shortly follows it is a stunning example.
I would refuse to dip the 1895. Just because I don't like where the spots are does not mean that someone else has the same opinion. Finding the right buyer can be done. Dipping, however, is lasting damage. I suppose you could find the right buyer for a dipped coin. But that ends up screwing over every buyer who wants an original undipped surface.