How do you dip properly - I apparently know how to do it improperly
adamlaneus
Posts: 6,969 ✭✭✭
This is *OBVIOUSLY* going to be offensive to some, but I do not care. I seek knowledge. I may break a few cheap eggs in the process.
I tried to dip a few spots off of a 2007 bronze "Martha Washington" medal last night.
I followed the instructions; 2 seconds in the dip. Then I sloshed it around in a mild soap solution. Then I put it under running tap water for a few minutes. A final wash in distilled water. Then I dried it with a lint free cloth, blotting only.
Well, that didn't go well. The next day, I see a discoloration on the metal, indicative of improper rinsing. Oops! Fortunately, this medal costs all of $2.75. But it is not ruined yet.
So, today...one second in dip. Rinse in acetone. Rinse in mild soap. Long time under running water. Rinse in distilled water.
What did I do wrong?
I should post a 'before' pic. Why did I dip this medal? I wanted to cure Martha of the 'pox' on the obverse; the 'amoebas' on the reverse. This is how it came from the mint!
I tried to dip a few spots off of a 2007 bronze "Martha Washington" medal last night.
I followed the instructions; 2 seconds in the dip. Then I sloshed it around in a mild soap solution. Then I put it under running tap water for a few minutes. A final wash in distilled water. Then I dried it with a lint free cloth, blotting only.
Well, that didn't go well. The next day, I see a discoloration on the metal, indicative of improper rinsing. Oops! Fortunately, this medal costs all of $2.75. But it is not ruined yet.
So, today...one second in dip. Rinse in acetone. Rinse in mild soap. Long time under running water. Rinse in distilled water.
What did I do wrong?
I should post a 'before' pic. Why did I dip this medal? I wanted to cure Martha of the 'pox' on the obverse; the 'amoebas' on the reverse. This is how it came from the mint!
0
Comments
careful not to get any on you
Silver WAR Nickels are OK to dip.
GrandAm
On the other hand, following the instructions on the jar has not gone well so far. Which is why I come here. I'm sure Russ knows! He knows everything.
I may be better off simply purchasing more "Marthas" if I want an uninfected one. But my other motive is to see what happens so that I can identify other folks failed dip attempts.
I sure as heck do not want to ruin anything of value. Nor do I want to purchase anything that has been ruined! I tend to love coins as they are; and attempt to avoid ones that are 'gone'.
<< <i>The page you were accessing requires variables to be passed to it.
Error Code: 100 >>
Could you get the link right, please.
That one is not good.
And an 'attitude icon' to boot. Hm. The icon would have gone better with a working link.
I ran a few searches and found nothing about properly rinsing copper.
This particular medal is new and already in that weird 'washed out pink' stage. Dipping it did not alter the base color. The pox came off readily. The amoebas, not so readily.
<< <i>
<< <i>The page you were accessing requires variables to be passed to it.
Error Code: 100 >>
Could you get the link right, please.
That one is not good.
And an 'attitude icon' to boot. Hm. The icon would have gone better with a working link.
I ran a few searches and found nothing about properly rinsing copper.
This particular medal is new and already in that weird 'washed out pink' stage. Dipping it did not alter the base color. The pox came off readily. The amoebas, not so readily. >>
Hit search, type in the word dip, hit search again.
Combining "dip" with "Russ" doesn't give me much.
Combining "dip" with "copper" gives me something. But it is not good. Mostly "don't do it".
Searching for "dip". Worthless. It's like googling for "britney". Thanks, though.
<< <i>Yeah, gee. Thanks for the useful information. That is just so awesome. >>
Anyone that is a member here should know to do a search by now. And, 99.99% of the people know damn well that you don't dip copper or bronze.
Your replies suck. I'm done with you.
A forum for exchanging information and ideas goes better when nasty-sounding attitudes not present.
Back to the topic...
I gave the coin a little soak in a 'basic' solution, figuring that the acidity of the dip is what was causing the reaction.
The 'pox' are not completely gone, but i'm not going to dip this coin to death. A reduction in the pox is nice.
The 'amoebas' were not touched by the dip! Apparently they are made of something horrible.
Also, my tap water is the hardest water ever. Full of carbonates. That's why a final distilled water rinse is important, because I can sure make more 'amoeba' spots if I want to.
I think this medal is cursed.
<< <i>For folks that are learning...and willing to ask questions...and even willing to look stupid while asking those questions, as there may be some good information gleaned by asking...
Your replies suck. I'm done with you.
A forum for exchanging information and ideas goes better when nasty-sounding attitudes not present. >>
I told you how to do a search. Maybe you need some reading comprehension classes. It must be tough to go through life without the ability to do a little simple research. You don't get extra credit in the real world.
Before anyone goes pointing the Witch Finger and shrieking Coin Doctor, let's just call it like it is ... most collectors will eventually mess around with a coin or two, if only to get a sense of what kinds of mistreatments lead to what sorts of appearances.
Things I have done:
dipped every metal but gold
blowtorched modern nickels (neat! purple! orange!)
whizzed already-cleaned circ Morgans with the dremel (ooh! shiny!)
retoned said Morgans with sulfur in various media
Things I have never done, and will not do:
Pass any of the above off, or try to, as original unmolested coins
BTW Russ used to use acetone only to take the haze off of Kennedy Special Mint Set and proofs from what I remember from his old posts. His primary interest was the earlier date silver coins.
Primarily because of this forum, I agonize over anything I dip in anything. (thanks! really!) I've only put four coins total into the 'hard stuff' with no plans for more. Three worthless morgans and this medal.
I have two coins that would probably benefit from a olive/mineral oil soak. I have yet to do that.
Experimentation can be good:
One of the reasons I tried lots of bad photography on good coins is to attempt to learn for myself how to 'see past' bad photos.
Chemistry is bad though. It is a one way trip.
Knowing which coins will benefit and which ones will not seems to be a good thing.
It is remarkable how reactive this fresh bronze metal surface is.
<< <i>In my experience dipped copper always looks like hell. Even if you don't get discoloration, the base color of the metal turns to a very unnatural washed-out unhealthy pink, and it does not take much time for this to happen. >>
At least for certain dipping processes.
It makes me cringe, that icky pink tinge!
Having a "SENIOR MOMENT" can't recall the name.
Never used it, but a few people say it works pretty good.
DANG------Should have tried a search!!!!!!!!!
Ooooh properly, improperly... tomayto, tomotto.
Ideally, this bronze medal will get a patina with age. I'm realizing that the age-patina may have been the best thing for covering up these spots.
I am finding that the key to using the 'hard stuff' is the rinse process. And a reactive copper coin seems to be a good indicator of how good a rinse you have.
Fact is, the Mint uses very strong chemicals during the production process. Heated acids and the like. So like it or not, "dipping" and "rinsing" is part of how a coin is made...in a sense...I believe this is done to remove scale after annealing. I wish we had a mint employee member on this forum who would share information.
I do believe there have been issues with that manufacturing process. Spotty sacs. Spotty cents. A clean surface on a reactive metal is hard, even for the experts.
I'll be darned if I am going to play with hot acid.
A related question that may not have been covered...
How do you dispose of dip? I am sure not going to pour it down the drain full strength! Fractional strength dip seems iffy.
Dilute the stuff to ridiculous proportions, neutralize with baking soda, then pour down the drain?
<< <i>What did I do wrong? >>
Tried to dip it in the first place.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>Under the black I believe I can see some crescentic old rainbow bag toning. Is it likely that these could be dipped successfully? What are the chances that I would wind up with a Mottled Horror such as Adam posted on another thread? >>
Any dip that will take off the black will take off the crescent as well. The products you'd want are Jewel-luster or E-Z-Est, which are basically sulfuric acid and some stabilizers. If you do it right you'll get basically a white or gray coin. It is not going to make a sow's ear a silk purse, but it can be a way to hit 'reset' on a badly toned coin.
If you are really determined to play with dip, start with some truly low-value coins, as in, no matter how badly you screw it up, they weren't worth more than melt to begin with, so who cares. If underneath the black on these silver dollars you think you've got decent mint state coins, don't use them for your first try.
I'd suggest using about half strength dip to begin with. There are those deep-set tone/tarnish situations where nothing short of a minute or so in full-strength will get rid of them, but it is not as though the coin you get out is a healthy looking thing.
Mostly what I like dip for is badly hazed or toned proofs, from the 50's-60's era on up, and it is not something I use very often since I try not to get coins that need it in the first place. Once in a while, though, you can rescue something pretty nice from under there.
What I have found is that the soap solution is absolutely key to preventing a reaction following a dip.
I've tried to approach this scientifically, dropping certain steps and seeing what happens. Yes, that meant dipping her over and over again. And doing it incorrectly. Ouch. About eight dips at one second each.
It appears that something in EZ-Est is not very water soluble, but needs the surfactants (or whatever) in soap to be removed. You can soak it in water as long as you want after a dip and it will react within minutes!
But a good long swishing in a mild soap solution. Long...meaning three minutes of constant agitation...that does seem to prevent further reaction. My first attempt did use a soap solution, but I dipped it into the soap only for a few seconds. It requires much more than that! Any dipping process that left out the mild soap step...almost instant reaction!
The mild soap is removing something that simple water, acetone, nor a baking soda neutralizer will affect. And you have to do the soap step for a long time. I will post 'after' pictures tomorrow. I want to wait at least 12 more hours to convince myself that it is fairly stable. Most of my 'mistakes' turned a color within minutes.
It will be interesting to see how stable it is, but so far so good. All of my other attempts resulted in some spot somewhere. This final attempt; it looks clean. No residual spots. Brown spots gone.
Where there was a brown spot, now there is a faint white spot. It went into the metal a little bit and the surface is crystallized differently underneath those spots. I suspect, with time, the whole thing will patina and look pretty neutral. It will be interesting to photograph this medal over time to see how it compares with the other three.
Poor Martha.
I promise i'll never dip an actual coin. I'll never dip copper again. And I doubt i'll use EZ-Est again, as I do not feel the need to do so on any coin that I have and don't expect to buy one that will tempt me to do so. But, through this process, I do see that exactly how you do the rinse step is critical.
Hopefully, this thread will dissuade other folks from doing this. And hopefully will encourage folks that dip silver/gold to spend lots of time swishing it around in that mild soap solution before the final rinse.
Me, i'm done. That is nasty stuff.
I wonder if I have made a huge mistake even writing this information to such a forum. Should I delete it all? No. If I do, then someone else might attempt this. If I had found a thread like this, I may have simply opted to buy a new medal instead.
I won't be making a series of chemically oriented coin doctoring threads. I do hope to focus on photography.
<< <i>easy....nix the mild soap stuff and dilute your dip. and when you dilute, use distilled water. >>
I'm in complete agreement with this statement and have no idea where the "mild soap" reference came from.
Eliminate that and you may eliminate your problem.
I'm a little confused on your photos. Are those the "after" photos or the "before" photos?
As for your education on dipping and how to do it properly........blow off the "doctor" comments. You are obviously aware that dipping to conserve or remove ugly spotting or toning is a wdiely acceptable practice in the coin industry but only those that know what they are doing or are ready to accept the results of a dip should attempt it.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with what you are doing.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>The amoebas, not so readily. >>
I've seen those "ameobas" on 1971-S Business Strike IKEs so what ever causes them has been around for a long time and dipping will not get rid of them.
The name is LEE!
"wash immediately with mild soap, then rinse thoroughly under water".
My first trial was an immediate, but quick dip in mild soap followed by a thorough rinse under water. That caused some improperly rinsed areas to show up within hours as deep red spots. Sorry I have no photos of this; I sort of panicked actually. I thought I had ruined the coin.
What I found works is an immediate, but longer wash in mild soap followed by a thorough rinse under water. It seems good now.
The photos you see are the 'before' photos.
I guess I can answer my own question in the original post. What was wrong with the process? I didn't really quite follow the instructions well. I took 'immediately' to mean 'quickly' as far as how long in the soap.
It doesn't sound like time heals 'amoebas' either.
Here are the after photos. Any color difference you see from the original pictures is probably an inaccuracy in my color management, as I did not take all of these photos with identical color balance in mind. I'll be taking pics of this one over time to see 'where it goes'. The camera picks up on those white spots; they are not so apparent in hand. Conversely, the reverse looks improved in the photos. In-hand, the reverse looks little improved. It is disconcerting to see such differences in-hand and in the photos.
The lighting is a little different; I was trying to exacerbate the spots.
I agree that full strength EZ-Est is awfully strong for this application and I could get away with a weak dilution of it. If I were to dip anymore, which I don't, really.
<< <i>
A related question that may not have been covered...
How do you dispose of dip? I am sure not going to pour it down the drain full strength! Fractional strength dip seems iffy.
Dilute the stuff to ridiculous proportions, neutralize with baking soda, then pour down the drain? >>
Lime-away and even vomit are a lot stronger acids than coin dip.
Also, the e-Z-est will tend to change the color of copper and bronze pieces (native, not sealed) odd colors, such as pink. While the bottle does indicate that you can clean copper, it works best for gold and silver. A trick is to start with a 1:1 dilution with distilled water, then immerse the coin in a weak baking soda (not baking powder) solution (e.g. 1 tablespoonful in a cup of distilled water) to neutralize the acids in the e-Z-est, then do a final rinse in distilled water (then optionally followed by a rinse in ultra-pure acetone).
e-A-est is a weak acid so there really is no worry about pouring into a drain and flushing with water. If it were a "dangerous" acid, no coin dealers would have their fingertips left!
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>The reference to the mild soap comes from the directions on the side of the jar of EZ-Est.
"wash immediately with mild soap, then rinse thoroughly under water". >>
Your reply makes me realize that I have never, ever read the "directions" on a jar of E-Z-Est!
However, I do disagree with those directions in that some mild soaps (since none appear to be specificed) do contain additives and perfumes which may or may not adversely affect the surface of a coin. Those additives do not rinse off regardless of how much rinsing is done. For example, how often do you step you of the shower without being able to "smell" the soap you used?
Even though its recommended, I don;t think I'd ever used a mild soap solution as a rinse after dipping.
As for your MW, it appears that there are some things which seem to be unaffected by dips which is all I can offer.
The name is LEE!
I'm 5 for 8 on spot free medals. 3 for 8 on diseased ones.
"New scent". Mmmm.
And it's interesting, some of the tidbits of wisdom in this thread. Don't vomit on coins. Now you tell me.
Let me show you another one of these fine medals...straight from mint packaging. Just a touch of glare is evident in the upper-left; this is in a capsule.
Dolley oughta get that spot on her neck looked at.
<< <i>Even though its recommended, I don;t think I'd ever used a mild soap solution as a rinse after dipping. >>
Water isn't that good for your coins either. The same sulphur laden gases that create toning also produce acid rain, which in turn makes wonderful water spots, especially on reactive metals like copper.
I go to great lengths to eliminate water from the equation.
Before:
After an acetone rinse:
The edge:
For a fair comparison, both shots are in the capsule. Thus you see some of the out of focus marks.
1) It is realtively uncommon for a planchet before or a coin after to leave the mint completely free of surface contaminants. Search any pile of like year mint or proof sets, and you'll see just how hard it is to find perfect coins without discoloration from contaminants of any sort.
2) It is realtively uncommon for any planchet to be formed of perfectly mixed alloy. This is the nature of metallurgy.
3) It is realtively uncommon for packaging materials to be completely free of contaminants which will then transfer to the coin, eventually turning it inside the packaging.
4) Most of what we see on the surface of a coin, such as a spot or the aforementioned amoebas (likely hard water stains) has become part of the composition of the metal itself. Even surface contaminants on a coin when removed will often alter the metal underneath them.
Knowing a little about statistics, it's easy to see how even a common coin can be rare with nearly flawless surfaces.
This is what makes the objects of our affection RARE, people.
Empty Nest Collection