Congrats Mike on the NGC review... Sounds like the customer service there was great. Hope you will be satisfied with those results, and looking forward to seeing that coin again.
Got the call from NGC today... NCS "conserved" the coin, was sent to NGC for regrade and they gave it MS64!
The NGC rep said it looks much better and that the graders felt that MS64 was the appropriate grade and that they are hoping I like the look of the coin (will post pics this weekend) as I'm supposed to get it by Friday. I asked what happens if I don't like the results of the conservation??? I was told that NGC would then work with me and find a buyer who was willing to purchase the coin for MS64 money. Didn't get into it much more than that as I'm willing to see what the conservation did first before I take any next steps. >>
Well done, but I would like to point out a few comments about this.
1. The coin has been conserved. Having said this, to me, the coin is no longer original. 2. I generally prefer the PCGS Appearance Review much more than I do the NGC review. PCGS will always either pay you the money, buy the coin back from you, or send you a replacement coin. They will not try to conserve the coin. In my opinion, NGC will try its best not to send you the money. 3. On a related note, NGC will probably not give you money on a grading disagreement. Ever try sending a failed crossover back to NGC for appearance review? I've tried it three times with no success. But at least the service from NGC is free (I believe).
Got the call from NGC today... NCS "conserved" the coin, was sent to NGC for regrade and they gave it MS64!
The NGC rep said it looks much better and that the graders felt that MS64 was the appropriate grade and that they are hoping I like the look of the coin (will post pics this weekend) as I'm supposed to get it by Friday. I asked what happens if I don't like the results of the conservation??? I was told that NGC would then work with me and find a buyer who was willing to purchase the coin for MS64 money. Didn't get into it much more than that as I'm willing to see what the conservation did first before I take any next steps. >>
Well done, but I would like to point out a few comments about this.
1. The coin has been conserved. Having said this, to me, the coin is no longer original. 2. I generally prefer the PCGS Appearance Review much more than I do the NGC review. PCGS will always either pay you the money, buy the coin back from you, or send you a replacement coin. They will not try to conserve the coin. In my opinion, NGC will try its best not to send you the money. 3. On a related note, NGC will probably not give you money on a grading disagreement. Ever try sending a failed crossover back to NGC for appearance review? I've tried it three times with no success. But at least the service from NGC is free (I believe).
That's all.
Mike >>
note: PCGS has and will try to 'conserve' coins by dipping them, sometimes without the owner's permission. This has been discussed at length here in the past. I've had it happen to me once; the coin turned nasty in the holder, and they dipped it, re-slabbed it and sent it back.
wow, I would not have been happy if the coin was "conserved" w/o my permission. not cool of any company to mess w/ someone else's property w/o permission. although the NGC rep really pushed the NCS conservation process, I did have the option to not go that route. I own several silver coins in holders that I know have been dipped, but I still like them. Figured it wouldn't hurt to see how they do at dipping this copper one. I guess we'll all see this weekend. If I don't like their "conservation," they will hear about it...
didn't you imply that you did not like the coin for the grade they said it was
and you want them to reimburse you? >>
I just wrote on the form that I didn't think the spotting was nearly as bad when I purchased the coin and that I thought the problem was getting worse. I indicated that I had attempted to sell/trade the coin at one of the major coin shows (Long Beach) and that most dealers wouldn't take the coin and advised me to send it in for Appearance Review. I also said that of the dealers that were willing to take the coin, their offers were less than MS63 money with the highest cash offer being $500. I ended by saying that the coin in its current condition is unacceptable as an MS64 on the market and seems to be unacceptable as an MS63.
I wasn't specific on what I wanted them to do with the coin (reimburse, replace, conserve) as I wanted to hear what they thought first. That said, without the spots out of the picture, the coin probably is right in an MS64 holder, just has a weak strike. I'm not expecting a miracle regarding the spooting though, but if NCS did a decent job w/ them and the overall eye appeal of the coin at least makes it acceptable on the market, I'll be happy. I just want it in a condition to where I'll be able to find someone to pay me Greysheet bid for it when I'm ready to sell/trade. In its current state it didn't generate offers of half of Greysheet, that's what I considered unacceptable.
<< <i>Go down and pick up your mail! I'm anxious to see the results... >>
Haha, sorry, was delivered by FedEx and they guarantee delivery by noon (on west coast here). Just arrived with about an hour to spare.
Still sort of my first impressions as I haven't really looked at every spot under a loupe yet, but in any event I am VERY IMPRESSED with the job NCS did. I have little doubt that I could now get MS64 money for this coin. Maybe not PCGS Guide money, but surely Greysheet...
Here's a few close ups of the obverse under different angles of light, images not messed with at all:
Here's one of the obverse by messing with the color to make the slab white:
And here's one of the reverse which they didn't "conserve." Looks much better w/o all them scratches in the slab and I knew it was a little off center, but now that its in the edgeview holder it's very easy to see that!!! Loving the edgeview holder for sure!
Again, very happy with the job they did on this coin. Sure, it's still not a perfect coin, can see a little evidence that spots were removed and the obverse has an overall brighter look to it, but it's 1000% better looking than it was in my opinion. Still haven't though much about it though, but something like this belongs on the NCS website w/ before and after pics.
I don't like the strike for a MS-64. It's a good thing to have NCS get the cancer off the obverse. The spots probably formed when someone dipped the coin some 15 years ago.
They did a nice job removing the spots, but in doing so the patch of hairlines below the eagle's neck really stand out. I would think that should limit the grade to a 63.
JJ
Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
They did a good job. Before, I think the coin imo was just unacceptable. It may be a low end 64. It has a good strike for a Flyer, the color is much better than before. These coins typically have a small spot or two, even in MS 65, and uneven color is not unusual for Uncs. I like the reverse. The only grade limiting factor I see are the hairlines below the front of the Eagle's head & body, which might make it a 63. If NGC would work with the OP to find a seller for 4 money, that's speaks volumes about their customer service.
Depending on what was paid for the coin, in light of the super job done by NCS, I might keep it. Question; in light of NCS's work on the coin, what are the chances it will look this this in six months or two years? I've never had them conserve a coin before.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
Thanks for the comments so far... and thanks Mr. Snow for posting the before and after like you did
While I would love to have a nice PhotoSeal example that is in a PCGS MS64 holder that is just screaming out loud for an upgrade... I bought this coin off eBay with a horribly blurry pic (I had a eBay gamble guess the grade post with that) for a total price of $1000.
Of course I thought I was getting a super bargain as other MS64s at the time were going for at least 1200 and the nice PCGS ones were 1500+. Of course, when I got it and saw a few spots (which were not able to be seen in the seller's pics) I learned why the seller was eager to take my $1000 offer.
At the time, I was still ok with the purchase, but to me it seemed as if they got worse in the few months I owned the coin. When I decided to get rid of it and buy another example, I quickly learned that I couldn't find any dealers willing to give me even half of what I paid. That's pretty much why I went the NCS route. I'm much much happier with the coin now and am somewhat confident that when I decide to get a new Flyer for my type set, I at least wont be buried in this one (assuming the look doesn't change).
Of course, NCS didn't give me a perfect coin either... where a couple of the major spots were under the eagle, there are now a couple of very faint lighter spots, much improved though. Also, cleaning up the coin did expose many of the marks/hairlines that were muted/hidden by the coins previous color.
Overall, I think it's a keeper for now, but will likely have it handy when I go to shows in case I spot another example that I'd like to trade for
I think they did a pretty nice job on that coin, but every time I looked at it I don't think I could stop myself from tilting it in the light and checking all the areas where the spots used to be, looking for faint traces of them, trying to see if they are getting darker, etc. I think it would slowly drive me mad.
<< <i>it would be interesting (but DO NOT DO IT) to crack it out send it in and see what it would grade now. >>
I agree, I wonder if NGC really would give it a MS64 if they didn't have their "grade guarantee" on the line...
I guess it would be interesting to send it to PCGS for crossover and request grader comments (if they still have that service). Would be happy to try that, just not sure what that would cost after shipping both ways and not sure I want to spend $$ on that when I could be buying more coins...
WOOF! WOOF! Since ngc offered to make you "whole" , I would damn sure let them. I don't think I could live with that coin at that price. BB for cleaning at either of the top two. Time to dump the dog. Sorry... no happy happy talk here.
The post-conservation result is a little too overdipped for me. Still, considering what it was before I'd say it is a net gain overall, because those spots were bad and only going to get worse. The spots are subdued for the most part for now. Would be interesting to see how the coin looks about 5 years down the road. Thank you for posting this process and for having the pictures.
A lie told often enough becomes the truth. ~Vladimir Lenin
Thanks again for the comments. All are appreciated.
I still think the coin is way way way better than it was. But many of you are correct in that the obverse does look messed with now. Like I mentioned before, I plan to trade this one up for another example someday... but perhaps I should start thinking about that sooner than later.
When I get in touch with the NGC rep this week (he said he'd get ahold of me to see how I liked it), I'm of course going to tell them they did good work on making the eye appeal of the coin better. But might end up telling them that I'm still not sure I'm 100% pleased with the coin now that it's been messed with. If I were pleased with it, I wouldn't be thinking about trading it up at all. Still not 100% sure what the plan for this one is...
Comments
Sounds like the customer service there was great. Hope you will be satisfied with those results, and looking forward to seeing that coin again.
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
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<< <i>UPDATE
Got the call from NGC today... NCS "conserved" the coin, was sent to NGC for regrade and they gave it MS64!
The NGC rep said it looks much better and that the graders felt that MS64 was the appropriate grade and that they are hoping I like the look of the coin (will post pics this weekend) as I'm supposed to get it by Friday. I asked what happens if I don't like the results of the conservation??? I was told that NGC would then work with me and find a buyer who was willing to purchase the coin for MS64 money. Didn't get into it much more than that as I'm willing to see what the conservation did first before I take any next steps. >>
Well done, but I would like to point out a few comments about this.
1. The coin has been conserved. Having said this, to me, the coin is no longer original.
2. I generally prefer the PCGS Appearance Review much more than I do the NGC review. PCGS will always either pay you the money, buy the coin back from you, or send you a replacement coin. They will not try to conserve the coin. In my opinion, NGC will try its best not to send you the money.
3. On a related note, NGC will probably not give you money on a grading disagreement. Ever try sending a failed crossover back to NGC for appearance review? I've tried it three times with no success. But at least the service from NGC is free (I believe).
That's all.
Mike
<< <i>
<< <i>UPDATE
Got the call from NGC today... NCS "conserved" the coin, was sent to NGC for regrade and they gave it MS64!
The NGC rep said it looks much better and that the graders felt that MS64 was the appropriate grade and that they are hoping I like the look of the coin (will post pics this weekend) as I'm supposed to get it by Friday. I asked what happens if I don't like the results of the conservation??? I was told that NGC would then work with me and find a buyer who was willing to purchase the coin for MS64 money. Didn't get into it much more than that as I'm willing to see what the conservation did first before I take any next steps. >>
Well done, but I would like to point out a few comments about this.
1. The coin has been conserved. Having said this, to me, the coin is no longer original.
2. I generally prefer the PCGS Appearance Review much more than I do the NGC review. PCGS will always either pay you the money, buy the coin back from you, or send you a replacement coin. They will not try to conserve the coin. In my opinion, NGC will try its best not to send you the money.
3. On a related note, NGC will probably not give you money on a grading disagreement. Ever try sending a failed crossover back to NGC for appearance review? I've tried it three times with no success. But at least the service from NGC is free (I believe).
That's all.
Mike >>
note: PCGS has and will try to 'conserve' coins by dipping them, sometimes without the owner's permission. This has been discussed at length here in the past. I've had it happen to me once; the coin turned nasty in the holder, and they dipped it, re-slabbed it and sent it back.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
didn't you imply that you did not like the coin for the grade they said it was
and you want them to reimburse you?
<< <i>when you sent the coin back for review,
didn't you imply that you did not like the coin for the grade they said it was
and you want them to reimburse you? >>
I just wrote on the form that I didn't think the spotting was nearly as bad when I purchased the coin and that I thought the problem was getting worse. I indicated that I had attempted to sell/trade the coin at one of the major coin shows (Long Beach) and that most dealers wouldn't take the coin and advised me to send it in for Appearance Review. I also said that of the dealers that were willing to take the coin, their offers were less than MS63 money with the highest cash offer being $500. I ended by saying that the coin in its current condition is unacceptable as an MS64 on the market and seems to be unacceptable as an MS63.
I wasn't specific on what I wanted them to do with the coin (reimburse, replace, conserve) as I wanted to hear what they thought first. That said, without the spots out of the picture, the coin probably is right in an MS64 holder, just has a weak strike. I'm not expecting a miracle regarding the spooting though, but if NCS did a decent job w/ them and the overall eye appeal of the coin at least makes it acceptable on the market, I'll be happy. I just want it in a condition to where I'll be able to find someone to pay me Greysheet bid for it when I'm ready to sell/trade. In its current state it didn't generate offers of half of Greysheet, that's what I considered unacceptable.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>Go down and pick up your mail! I'm anxious to see the results... >>
Haha, sorry, was delivered by FedEx and they guarantee delivery by noon (on west coast here). Just arrived with about an hour to spare.
Still sort of my first impressions as I haven't really looked at every spot under a loupe yet, but in any event I am VERY IMPRESSED with the job NCS did. I have little doubt that I could now get MS64 money for this coin. Maybe not PCGS Guide money, but surely Greysheet...
Here's a few close ups of the obverse under different angles of light, images not messed with at all:
Here's one of the obverse by messing with the color to make the slab white:
And here's one of the reverse which they didn't "conserve." Looks much better w/o all them scratches in the slab and I knew it was a little off center, but now that its in the edgeview holder it's very easy to see that!!! Loving the edgeview holder for sure!
Again, very happy with the job they did on this coin. Sure, it's still not a perfect coin, can see a little evidence that spots were removed and the obverse has an overall brighter look to it, but it's 1000% better looking than it was in my opinion. Still haven't though much about it though, but something like this belongs on the NCS website w/ before and after pics.
Look forward to everyone's comments...
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
After:
I don't like the strike for a MS-64. It's a good thing to have NCS get the cancer off the obverse. The spots probably formed when someone dipped the coin some 15 years ago.
Thanks for sharing, not often we get to see the results on NCS.
JJ
Depending on what was paid for the coin, in light of the super job done by NCS, I might keep it. Question; in light of NCS's work on the coin, what are the chances it will look this this in six months or two years? I've never had them conserve a coin before.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
While I would love to have a nice PhotoSeal example that is in a PCGS MS64 holder that is just screaming out loud for an upgrade... I bought this coin off eBay with a horribly blurry pic (I had a eBay gamble guess the grade post with that) for a total price of $1000.
Of course I thought I was getting a super bargain as other MS64s at the time were going for at least 1200 and the nice PCGS ones were 1500+. Of course, when I got it and saw a few spots (which were not able to be seen in the seller's pics) I learned why the seller was eager to take my $1000 offer.
At the time, I was still ok with the purchase, but to me it seemed as if they got worse in the few months I owned the coin. When I decided to get rid of it and buy another example, I quickly learned that I couldn't find any dealers willing to give me even half of what I paid. That's pretty much why I went the NCS route. I'm much much happier with the coin now and am somewhat confident that when I decide to get a new Flyer for my type set, I at least wont be buried in this one (assuming the look doesn't change).
Of course, NCS didn't give me a perfect coin either... where a couple of the major spots were under the eagle, there are now a couple of very faint lighter spots, much improved though. Also, cleaning up the coin did expose many of the marks/hairlines that were muted/hidden by the coins previous color.
Overall, I think it's a keeper for now, but will likely have it handy when I go to shows in case I spot another example that I'd like to trade for
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
but would not be surprised if in 15 years it looks like the original with the spots
I would put it in my nice for now, but need to sell or trade pile
send it in and see what it would grade now.
<< <i>it would be interesting (but DO NOT DO IT) to crack it out
send it in and see what it would grade now. >>
I agree, I wonder if NGC really would give it a MS64 if they didn't have their "grade guarantee" on the line...
I guess it would be interesting to send it to PCGS for crossover and request grader comments (if they still have that service). Would be happy to try that, just not sure what that would cost after shipping both ways and not sure I want to spend $$ on that when I could be buying more coins...
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>it would be interesting (but DO NOT DO IT) to crack it out
send it in and see what it would grade now. >>
Wouldn't it be funny if they bagged it for improper cleaning. I'd say there's a 50/50 chance, if they haven't seen this thread anyways.
<< <i>
<< <i>it would be interesting (but DO NOT DO IT) to crack it out
send it in and see what it would grade now. >>
Wouldn't it be funny if they bagged it for improper cleaning. I'd say there's a 50/50 chance, if they haven't seen this thread anyways. >>
That would be hilarious.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Since ngc offered to make you "whole" , I would damn sure let them.
I don't think I could live with that coin at that price.
BB for cleaning at either of the top two.
Time to dump the dog.
Sorry... no happy happy talk here.
I still think the coin is way way way better than it was. But many of you are correct in that the obverse does look messed with now. Like I mentioned before, I plan to trade this one up for another example someday... but perhaps I should start thinking about that sooner than later.
When I get in touch with the NGC rep this week (he said he'd get ahold of me to see how I liked it), I'm of course going to tell them they did good work on making the eye appeal of the coin better. But might end up telling them that I'm still not sure I'm 100% pleased with the coin now that it's been messed with. If I were pleased with it, I wouldn't be thinking about trading it up at all. Still not 100% sure what the plan for this one is...
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448