Question about hairlines being called 'Cleaning'

DoubleEagle59 · November 25, 2008 2:29AM

My question is this:

If a coin has faint hairlines that are present on only one quarter the area of only one side of the coin; the other side having no hairlines at all...

Would you grade the coin as 'cleaned'.

and if you do, then please explain to me how one can go about physically cleaning a coin by only cleaning one quadrant of only one side?

metalmeister · November 25, 2008 2:31AM

I have had Silver Dollars B.B. for exactly what you are describing.
Fantstic coins otherwise.

WithArrows · November 25, 2008 2:35AM

A previous owner cleaned off a dirt spot or some sort of spec in just one quadrant of a coin. Perhaps it was cleaned with a solution or just wiped with a cloth; either way, it left marks on just one area of the coin. I've seen quite a few coins with this characteristic.

RWB · November 25, 2008 2:35AM

An eraser, cloth, cotton swab, finger, potato chip, folded slice of bologna, etc. Anything used in an attempt to remove (clean) a spot or bit of dirt will scratch the coin.

DoubleEagle59 · November 25, 2008 2:35AM

me too,

and this is why I've asked the question.

Personally, I think the grading companies (in this scenario) are completely wrong and doing an injustice to the hobby as a whole and specifically to the 'small guy' who submits coins and gets discouraged with all the BB's.

DoubleEagle59 · November 25, 2008 2:36AM

<< A previous owner cleaned off a dirt spot or some sort of spec in just one quadrant of a coin. Perhaps it was cleaned with a solution or just wiped with a cloth; either way, it left marks on just one area of the coin. I've seen quite a few coins with this characteristic. >>

I thought of that too.

But does that justify a bodybag?

WithArrows · November 25, 2008 2:38AM

<< But does that justify a bodybag? >>

I suppose that depends on the size and degree of the cleaned/wiped area as well as the grader looking at the coin. It's surface damage just like a scratch or rim rump...

19Lyds · November 25, 2008 3:03AM

<< 

<< A previous owner cleaned off a dirt spot or some sort of spec in just one quadrant of a coin. Perhaps it was cleaned with a solution or just wiped with a cloth; either way, it left marks on just one area of the coin. I've seen quite a few coins with this characteristic. >>

I thought of that too.

But does that justify a bodybag? >>

Yes.

Its never been a question of "fully" cleaned vs "partially" cleaned or even "A little bit" cleaned.

If its been cleaned, then its been cleaned.

Connecticoin · November 25, 2008 3:36AM

From my experience with large silver coins (i.e. Morgans and Walkers) there is tolerance for a few hairlines if they are not distracting overall, and are scattered about the coin (i.e. 2 in one area, one in another) rather than concentrated in one spot. However, if an entire field has been wiped, it will more likely than not bodybag. And, if the coin does not bodybag, the grade will be reduced for the hairlines.

Frankcoins · November 25, 2008 3:39AM

<< 

<< A previous owner cleaned off a dirt spot or some sort of spec in just one quadrant of a coin. Perhaps it was cleaned with a solution or just wiped with a cloth; either way, it left marks on just one area of the coin. I've seen quite a few coins with this characteristic. >>

I thought of that too.

But does that justify a bodybag? >>

Yes, like "a little" pregnant.

Frankcoins · November 25, 2008 3:43AM

<< A previous owner cleaned off a dirt spot or some sort of spec in just one quadrant of a coin. Perhaps it was cleaned with a solution or just wiped with a cloth; either way, it left marks on just one area of the coin. I've seen quite a few coins with this characteristic. >>

If a coin NEEDS to be cleaned, do the whole thing where at least the entire coin has a uniform appearance.

notwilight · November 25, 2008 3:44AM

coin may have had a spot on it so someone carefully took a polishing cloth to it.

those who like to talk about brillo pads are either joking, exaggerating, or don't understand that one needs only a soft cloth to put the hairlines on a coin. that is why grandmothers are so often inclined to clean coins. they think their soft cloths they polish silver with will do no harm. --Jerry

Doogy · November 25, 2008 3:51AM

<< 

<< 

<< A previous owner cleaned off a dirt spot or some sort of spec in just one quadrant of a coin. Perhaps it was cleaned with a solution or just wiped with a cloth; either way, it left marks on just one area of the coin. I've seen quite a few coins with this characteristic. >>

I thought of that too.

But does that justify a bodybag? >>

Yes.

Its never been a question of "fully" cleaned vs "partially" cleaned or even "A little bit" cleaned.

If its been cleaned, then its been cleaned. >>

I agree, thus it rates a bodybag. However, the two top services don't see it this way with pre-1850 coinage. I'm still surprised by the amount of bust era material that have obviously been scrubbed, showing far too many hairlines, that both services will silently net grade. The fact is that they "need" these coins in their population reports to show their credibility, but it is a bad thing for the collector looking for an original piece buying sight unseen (which is one of the motives for the TPGs in the first place).

dorkkarl · November 25, 2008 4:53AM

the word "cleaned" is being used to the point of inducing wild paranoia, which i think the tpg's love. a coin can very easily have hairlines, even parallel hairlines, yet never have been cleaned

K S

GrumpyEd · November 25, 2008 5:12AM

A few hairlines can come from a particle on a flip or in a poly bag.
In most cases I've seen a "few" lowers the grade but if there's a pattern even in one area it bags it.

DoubleEagle59 · November 25, 2008 5:23AM

<< the word "cleaned" is being used to the point of inducing wild paranoia, which i think the tpg's love. a coin can very easily have hairlines, even parallel hairlines, yet never have been cleaned

K S >>

This is my main point.

If only the hairlines are located at one isolated area, I feel the term 'cleaned' is inappropriate.

Cleaning may not have created this 'isolated' area.

Perhaps a term of 'uneven wear' could be more useful.

jimmymac · November 25, 2008 6:02AM

IMHO, I feel this whole business of BB coins because they've been cleaned is a farce - most coins of the 18th century were cleaned as an acceptable practice - I dont believe there are too many of these coins that exist in their original condition - if they did they all would be black by now - I believe TPG's have perpetuated the negativity surrouding "cleaned" coins - everyone each to their own - whether cleaned or not, all coins still have a story to tell and are beautiful to behold!!

fc · November 25, 2008 6:46AM

what witharrows and rwb said. take a pristine newly minted coin. locate a tiny spot.
try to get that spot off. bingo... a cleaned coin with only one quadrant with hairlines.

simple as that.

fc · November 25, 2008 6:49AM

<< the word "cleaned" is being used to the point of inducing wild paranoia, which i think the tpg's love. a coin can very easily have hairlines, even parallel hairlines, yet never have been cleaned

K S >>

this is too vague a statement. a circ coin that was slid over a counter to buy a whiskey in 1888
is one thing.. but to see parallel hairlines on high and low surfaces shows that someone
really did mess with it... thus cleaned.

i have looked at enough circulated coins to know that normal usage usually does not impart
what we are calling hairlines.

it always seems to be collector coins that were treated like this. not 1964-1984 lincoln cents.
odd that? not at all. collectors mess with coins. it is well known. a tendency they always draw
to like a moth to a flame. to improve the coin is what is going on in their head.

tahoe98 · November 25, 2008 6:53AM

............it pays to examine a coin fully BEFORE submitting. might prevent the sting of rejection.

astrorat · November 25, 2008 6:53AM

One possibility could be that the small area is due to marks from a counting wheel. I have seen a few examples of counting wheel damage on MS coins that looks like spot cleaning.

Lane

ricko · November 25, 2008 6:57AM

Cleaning, once an acceptable practice, has become the 'nightmare on elm street' in numismatics.... Justified? Probably not, but collectors drive these issues - just like with slabbing and stickering. People cannot grade - and heaven forbid one would have an 'undocumented' high grade coin... "something must be wrong with it". We allow this madness.. gradeflation, certification etc.... no doubt some value can be ascribed to the whole sad scenario, but as a whole, the hobby has suffered. Cheers, RickO

Barndog · November 25, 2008 7:35AM

"hairlined" does not always equal "cleaned"

LindeDad · November 25, 2008 8:33AM

Call it cleaning or altered surfaces what's the difference. Somebody tried to make the coin better than what it was.

mnmcoin · November 25, 2008 9:55AM

Could just be a wheel mark.

morris

coolest · November 25, 2008 9:57AM

<< An eraser, cloth, cotton swab, finger, potato chip, folded slice of bologna, etc. Anything used in an attempt to remove (clean) a spot or bit of dirt will scratch the coin. >>

Is bologna good for cleaning coins?

golfer72 · November 25, 2008 11:01AM

What about the Gold Shipwreck coins that PCGS cleaned and then slabbed? Oh thats right I forgot. They were "conserved". My mistake.

Fairlaneman · November 25, 2008 11:07AM

<< If a coin has faint hairlines that are present on only one quarter the area of only one side of the coin; the other side having no hairlines at all...

Would you grade the coin as 'cleaned'. >>

Yes and it really makes you feel like a idiot when you get home from a shop or show and find this. The obscure little patch of fine closely bunch lines that you missed.....

Ken

Hyperion · November 25, 2008 11:09AM

<< "hairlined" does not always equal "cleaned" >>

correct. we're talking natural wear vs an overt cleaning attempt.

hard and fast rule?

nope, gotta go case by case and trust your experience and instinct.

Unknown · November 25, 2008 12:42PM

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pocketpiececommems · November 25, 2008 1:19PM

If you carry silver coins for a pocketpiece they will have hairlines on them.

ajia · November 25, 2008 1:37PM

What about the Gold Shipwreck coins that PCGS cleaned and then slabbed? Oh thats right I forgot. They were "conserved". My mistake.

PerryHall · November 25, 2008 8:49PM

PCGS and NGC have always allowed cleaned coins in their holders provided they aren't harshly or excessively cleaned. If a coin is properly cleaned, it will not be possible to detect any evidence of the cleaning.

Question about hairlines being called 'Cleaning'

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