Believe it or not, there are actual COINS inside those plastic tombs! If you like the COIN, maybe you should buy it! If you only want the PLASTIC, PCGS coins definately sell for more. Why? Because they want to remain esoteric, and will not allow NGC coins on their Registry! If they gave NGC the same respect (Registry wise) that NGC gives them, prices would be equal. It's not really about the coins, it's all about the Registry. Personnally, I would buy a coin in either slab, IF I LIKED THE COIN! As far as the sevices go, I do like NGC better, simply because they recognize that their graders are NOT the only professionals out there! As for all the talk of PCGS being so flawless, seems like the CAC is stickering about the same amount from each sevice!
For small coins PCGS has a better slab. Pennies kind of get lost down in that white insert in the NGC slab. Nickles and bigger are ok in NGC. There is junk from both services. ANACS slabs are flimsy but if I see a good coin I will take it. I think NGC compares very well if not better than PCGS with Proof Franklins. Pretty close with Morgans also.
<< <i>That's probably a signal of a market downturn. When downturns have occurred during the last few decades (in my experience), buyers (collectors and dealers looking for inventory material) get MUCH pickier. For some types of coins, NGC grading is less reliable that PCGS grading. Dealer refusal to consider NGC coins for purchase could also be a reflection of anticipated cash-flow problems. >>
In the last year or so I have tried crossing over more than 50 NGC-slabbed coins. Mostly early Lincolns, my specialty, and a dozen Peace dollars, another love. I have not seen a single upgrade. More than 70% were down-graded (grade or color). 20% crossed. The rest were BB'd.
I know these coins well enough. I've been collecting and learning grading for more than 40 years. My conclusions are:
1) PCGS is much tougher on copper. Perhaps it's their lifetime guarantee, not 8-10 years, as with NGC. On non-copper they are also stricter than NGC. But maybe that's a recent tightening trend both companies are following. 2) Dealers are reluctant to entertain NGC offers. They'll look at PCGS coins but brush aside NGC. 3) PCGS can't deal with color. They'd sooner BB a coin than risk a bad call. 4) Without exception, every dealer I talked to at shows encouraged me to take the hit and move to PCGS.
I agree that coins speak for themselves, regardless of dumb plastic slabs. But let's face it: coins are valuable and their market value depends on plastic. If you intend to keep your coins forever, who cares? But if you're like a lot of us who buy and sell, upgrade and move on, then the plastic matter big time.
Heck is going to freeze over before I buy NGC gold sight unseen
I've bought a lot of PCGS generic gold sight unseen over the past few years and believe me, there's not a whole heck of a lot of difference on the commonly shuffled around stuff. It's definitely easier to sell PCGS gold but I find that the 2 services are probably closer in MS gold than they are in silver type.
<< <i>I brought two boxes of coins for sale... PCGS, NGC, a few old green&white label PCI and some Blue ANACS slabs... all sorts of coins from a few widgets to Morgans to Commems to Trade Dollars and type coins... showed to a number of dealers, mainly trying out folks I do not usually deal with...
NO interest at all with ANACS or the old PCI...they did not (except one dealer) even look at the coins in those holders. A few looked at the NGC's quickly BUT they all took time with the PCGS coins and those are what ended up selling. For the record, my prices on all the coins, was 10% back of bid.
Larry - Now that we've established that we're talking about your experience at Baltimore, let's analyze what happened to you.
First question: Before your potential buyers went through your boxes, did you tell them that everything was priced at 10% below Graysheet? If the answer is "yes", that would explain their behavior. >>
No... I only said that if they saw anything they liked the prices would be attractive... perhaps that equates to the same thing...
Look...there are those dealers who are "known" to have a good eye...they also have a "following" of collectors who trust that eye...and they are also eclectic in their offerings and/or highly specialized... for these dealers there are no generalizations about holder types to be made... they select only "certain" coins based on the coins qualities with the holder as a secondary feature...BUT... BIG BUT... this is not indicative of the general market...
For the most part... among dealers who "know" how to look up Heritage auction prices but never look at the coins... and look at labels and plastic BUT rarely, if ever, really look at the coin... and that equates to ALOT of tables at a big show such as Baltimore... and for these dealers, PCGS= bigger bucks.
I have a hunch that the dealers who complained about Coinfest are the ones who fit this model. A show such as Coinfest is geared towards the collector...people who look for NICE coins...they look through the plastic...not at it...
Even at Coinfest I noticed this prevalent trend...I did a very fair share of business there... maybe 60% to dealers and 40% to collectors... most of my business was in RAW coins (probably 80%)... with some slabs... in the Dealer to Dealer sales involving slabs, they were only interested in PCGS coins... only one dealer there even considered any NGC coins in my cases... or any other holder... and he is one of those RARE dealers who deals in coins and could care less about the plastic... (oh yeah...there was one coin in NGC and with a CAC sticker...I had to sell that one at a loss just to move it for cash flow).
For those who need and/or prefer the plastic... there are 100's of dealers out there... I never have been one to go along with the crowd...
As I have said many a time... I collect and buy/sell coins ... some of them just happen to be in plastic... and I carry a tool at all shows that can cure that "problem" whenever some collector prefers the coin raw... and believe it or not, that happens more often than some here would ever think...
Amazing but true... there are actually a large number of coin collectors who prefer their collections "naked"... shocking but true...
Anyway... I drift off the topic here... For the most part... PCGS IS THE HOLDER OF CHOICE FOR THE GENERAL MARKET... and right now there is a trend to shy away from any other holder or heavily discount those coins not in this preferred plastic...
Seems that even the counterfeiters are getting to know that as well...
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
Ok I have the new numbers and some surprisingly great news for NGC! Back in 2006 when I crashed the numbers 17,859 MS66 and 15,071 MS67 total certified war nickels for those two MS grades. Adding those numbers we get 32,930. The % of MS66 graded coins is 54% while for the MS67 it's 46%. Today we have 20,843 MS66 coins graded by NGC and 16,929 MS67's. That's 3784 more MS66's and 1858 more MS67's!
PCGS has graded 14,677 MS66 war nickels coins while grading only 935 MS67's.
So what's the great news for NGC? They are now grading 67% MS66's and 33% MS67's, which means they are now grading 13% strictor since my first tally. I'd say, that is good news for the NGC faithful!
Leo
It's really interesting pondering the large gap between the two companies with the MS66 and MS67 grades. NGC must know that they could be doing better than that. They have chosen the higher road, so to speak but what about PCGS? They have 60% less submissions. And who's sending all those coins to NGC?
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
At the Baltimore Show many dealers refused to even consider NGC coins, it seemed to be PCGS only. Whats going on here? Not that i am complaining, i am a PCGS man, just curious
Part of it is that many dealers don't know how to grade and that many buyers want only PCGS coins because they can't grade, either. Part of it also is that in the past, NGC overgraded quite a bit of material in specific coin series. Capped Bust Halves come to mind. I avoid NGC CBHs, because imo, the overwhelming majority of the nice ones have long since been crossed to PC holders. Most of them I've seen in NGC holders are about a 1/2 point lower than their PC counterparts. Ditto re RD IHCs.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
I've had a big time dealer tell me personally that an "N4" (that is, a NGC 64) is equal to a "P3" regarding CBH's. And the mantra on the bourse floor when contemplating an NGC slab is always"...will this cross (to PCGS)"?
My own experience, however, does not bear this out. The reality is much worse. Yeah, I've had some cross grade for grade, but I've had an 1825 NGC 65 not even cross to 64! Worse, I had an 1831 64PL CBH come back with a sticker on the slab essentially body bagging the coin for altered surfaces!! Yet this has been the big lie: "NGC and PCGS are equal." How many times have we seen NGC coins go for a "bargain" at 10% less that PCGS prices? Over and over again. This practice is so common that thousands upon thousands of dollars have been made on this rouse. In fact, entire business models have be founded on this fallacy.
In truth we are dealing with dual realities. If a collector goes to buy, then NGC=PCGS, if he goes to sell, then NGC x =PCGS x-1. However, if the dealer is buying and selling, then the opposite is true.
I feel that I've been very civil in my commentary, but I've seen several responses to similar ideas including the criticism that the writer has "...(drunk) the (PCGS) kool aid..." In anticipation of this type of retort, I offer the following: if you've drunk the NGC kool aid, then fine--go sell you NGC slabs and see if PCGS=NGC.
"Discipline is never an end in itself, only a means to an end."
On the silver nickels 1942-P to 1945-S, MS only, NGC has graded 35,240 nickels. 17,859 were graded MS66, 15,071 were graded MS67! Add the MS66, MS67 numbers plus the MS68 and the star designated coins we add another 398 certified coins and we have a grand total of 33,328 out of 35,240 that were graded MS66 and higher! Anyone want to take a gander on how many MS65 coins NGC has graded over the years it has been in business????? It's only 766!
Pcgs has only graded 784 MS67's war nickels to NGC's 15,071 !
Yes, I would definately question if NGC is or will ever get it right!
Recently, NGC has decided to make folks to pay to see their population report.
Take the above info seriously and keep your money. Or send me $25 for saving you hundreds!
Leo >>
There was a huge hoard of about 100,000 high quality war nickels that were discovered in the mid 1990s. The owners cut a deal with NGC to have them graded for about $8 each when PCGS wanted $15. Plus NGC agreed to look at them and charge only $1 each (and return unslabbed) any that did not grade at least MS66. So again, NO JUDGEMENTS can be made about the strictness of a grading service based on population reports. unless you know how many are submitted to each service (unknown) AND that each service receives the same random distribution of coins (impossible.)
I bought 3 double row slab boxes of 1932-64 Washington quarters, Franklins, Mercury dimes and Morgans at the Grapevine TX show from Jack Copeland. About 2/3 NGC, 1/3 PCGS. Sight seen, they all cost me the same, the dealer pays the same unless the coin is a dog, they all look about the same with the normal plus-or-minus one point differences of opinion.
Both NGC and PCGS offer fine services. I sell both, and am an authorized dealer for both. PCGS is overly strict on modern 70s. NGC offers a dipping service, so naturally there will be more dipped coins in NGC slabs, which a few collectors dislike. But the only CONSISTENT factor I see that PCGS coins are "better" is is the snob factor. That's nice work if you can get it..ask Sony, or Rolex, or Neiman Marcus.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
In very ecoonomically uncertain times, dealers have to think about stagnant inventories and low cash flow. PCGS is just easier to move. In a downturn, they might lose a little on a PCGS slab, in a sight-unseen trade, but at least they'll get cash back in their wallet.
Dealers, to variable degrees, might like to "buy the coin, not the holder" but have to face the daily reality of making money trading one sort of widget or another -- using "widget" here as it is classically used to describe some unspecified product in the illustration of a business model not the popularized term for generic and easily replaceable coins. Whatever their widgets are, they need to focus on making the sales happen with their target customer base. PCGS is more reliably acceptable.
Today, with all of the TPGs being more finicky, nobody seems to be able to confidently and reliably predict their verdicts on a raw grade or a crossover. Who needs to get stuck with nice coins tha simply won't make the better (for te market) plastic?
<< <i>At the Baltimore Show many dealers refused to even consider NGC coins, it seemed to be PCGS only. Whats going on here? Not that i am complaining, i am a PCGS man, just curious
Part of it is that many dealers don't know how to grade and that many buyers want only PCGS coins because they can't grade, either. Part of it also is that in the past, NGC overgraded quite a bit of material in specific coin series. Capped Bust Halves come to mind. I avoid NGC CBHs, because imo, the overwhelming majority of the nice ones have long since been crossed to PC holders. Most of them I've seen in NGC holders are about a 1/2 point lower than their PC counterparts. Ditto re RD IHCs. >>
While I can not argue with this... I find it quite amusing...
After all is said and done, if these dealers and collectors can not grade...how is it that they can determine that PCGS (or any other TPG) properly graded a particular coin or not?
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
<< <i>But the only CONSISTENT factor I see that PCGS coins are "better" is is the snob factor. That's nice work if you can get it..ask Sony, or Rolex, or Neiman Marcus. >>
Interesting analogy. At one time (increasingly less so), SONY products WERE generally better than any of the competition. Rolexes, on the other hand, apparently keep lousy time.
Anyway, for what it's worth, I think PCGS IS tighter OVERALL than NGC. This tends to be reflected in the Bluesheet, where separate dealer buy prices are quoted for the major grading services. On some coins, there's virtually no difference. On others, it is substantial.
Funny how in an economic downtown, dealers will choose the TPG that is least likely to survive the downtown. This whole thread assumes that CLCT/PCGS survives and impending bankruptcy, which looks questionable considering the plummeting submissions, diving stock price and fact that they are laying off graders to stay afloat.
what happens to all of these coins then? will they retain their value fully if there isn't a company to back them up (or a company struggling in reorganization with very little capital?) Seems like these dealers are sailing on the Titanic and bragging about how unsinkable it is.
<< <i>Funny how in an economic downtown, dealers will choose the TPG that is least likely to survive the downtown. This whole thread assumes that CLCT/PCGS survives and impending bankruptcy, which looks questionable considering the plummeting submissions, diving stock price and fact that they are laying off graders to stay afloat.
what happens to all of these coins then? will they retain their value fully if there isn't a company to back them up (or a company struggling in reorganization with very little capital?) Seems like these dealers are sailing on the Titanic and bragging about how unsinkable it is. >>
Ultimately, the dealer or collector is buying a coin at a certain price. Even if PCGS ceases to exist, which I think is very unlikely in the short run, the coin will be judged on its own merits, and the grade of the coin will be viewed in consideration of what the graders felt the coin should grade at the time of submission. Most will not care about the grade guarantee as in 99.9% of cases this is already a moot point.
<< <i>Funny how in an economic downtown, dealers will choose the TPG that is least likely to survive the downtown. This whole thread assumes that CLCT/PCGS survives and impending bankruptcy, which looks questionable considering the plummeting submissions, diving stock price and fact that they are laying off graders to stay afloat.
what happens to all of these coins then? will they retain their value fully if there isn't a company to back them up (or a company struggling in reorganization with very little capital?) Seems like these dealers are sailing on the Titanic and bragging about how unsinkable it is. >>
Ultimately, the dealer or collector is buying a coin at a certain price. Even if PCGS ceases to exist, which I think is very unlikely in the short run, the coin will be judged on its own merits, and the grade of the coin will be viewed in consideration of what the graders felt the coin should grade at the time of submission. Most will not care about the grade guarantee as in 99.9% of cases this is already a moot point. >>
yeah okay, good logic. So the very early and correctly graded ANACS/ANA, Hallmark and David Hall graded coins usually fetch as much as their PCGS counterparts? Plus, I take it you've never had a coin turn in the holder or develop milk spots after it was graded? try getting your money back from a bankrupt company or even one in reorgnization.
There has become so much talk of plastic holders here on this forum, not the coins themselves, almost so that the company slabbing is held in higher esteem than the coin itself. You can't seriously tell me that there wouldn't be an impact were this to change dramatically by the company going under.
The dealer and "flipper" type collector may not immediately care too much in the short term, but that long-term collector may think twice about buying some AT ticking time bomb of a coin that is likely to turn in the holder in the coming years, and have no financial recourse whatsoever.
I would just like to take a moment to observe that the OP, Halfhunter06 has put in a nice amount of quality posts on this forum in the short time he has been here... and now has even started a 100+ post thread... not too shabby for a newbie...
Congrats, Chris... glad you came on board...
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
...that long-term collector may think twice about buying some AT ticking time bomb of a coin that is likely to turn in the holder in the coming years, and have no financial recourse whatsoever.
The long term collector should already be concerned about this.
Plus, I take it you've never had a coin turn in the holder or develop milk spots after it was graded? try getting your money back from a bankrupt company or even one in reorgnization.
I do not buy graded coins in which milk-spotting is an issue. Anyone paying a premium for a "70" bullion coin should already be very concerned. As for coins turning in their holders, this is more complex. Some people may get stuck with them. Often these coins can be rescued and a professional service like NCS might get more business as a result.
You can't seriously tell me that there wouldn't be an impact were this to change dramatically by the company going under.
I did not say that there would be no impact. I just said that the coins would continue to trade at an appropriate grade. Perhaps some might consider them as raw. Many would probably get slabbed at NGC. The coin market would not come to a standstill. There would be a period of adjustment, and then business as usual. Coins were bought and sold before PCGS and will be bought and sold after PCGS.
<< <i>...that long-term collector may think twice about buying some AT ticking time bomb of a coin that is likely to turn in the holder in the coming years, and have no financial recourse whatsoever.
The long term collector should already be concerned about this.
I agree completely. however, when a company is still in business and can fully compensate the collector/victim, it allows the collector of these types of coins such added assurance.
Plus, I take it you've never had a coin turn in the holder or develop milk spots after it was graded? try getting your money back from a bankrupt company or even one in reorgnization.
I do not buy graded coins in which milk-spotting is an issue. Anyone paying a premium for a "70" bullion coin should already be very concerned. As for coins turning in their holders, this is more complex. Some people may get stuck with them. Often these coins can be rescued and a professional service like NCS might get more business as a result.
I too only collect bullion for their silver value, and won't buy slabbed bullion. I personally think the MS/PF 70 market will be the first to crash and burn, at least to the relative values they have enjoyed of late. A conserved coin is a possibility, but one must pay NCS to do it after the fact and that may or may not work (in the case of bullion milk spotting, it won't work). Regardless, the collector will receive nothing back from the company that guaranteed the grade, another big negative for new or seasonsed collectors alike.
You can't seriously tell me that there wouldn't be an impact were this to change dramatically by the company going under.
I did not say that there would be no impact. I just said that the coins would continue to trade at an appropriate grade. Perhaps some might consider them as raw. Many would probably get slabbed at NGC. The coin market would not come to a standstill. There would be a period of adjustment, and then business as usual. Coins were bought and sold before PCGS and will be bought and sold after PCGS. >>
I agree that the coin market would not come to a standstill, but some coins may not trade for an appropriate grade depending on the type of coin. Whatever TPG is left standing may not want to 'cross' bullion for fear of milkspotting, the same goes for toners . If some go from putting a high and deserved premium on them, to considering them raw, then a whole segment of collector is screwed out of that premium from holder of the now defunct company.
I fully believe that we "need" two major TPGs. Right now as it stands, some coins sell for huge premiums in PCGS holders, while others sell for huge premiums in NGC holders. Having one company as top dog for a little while will throw the market off. Eventually, another TPG would emerge to challenge the other, which will act as the balance we see today. This is a good thread, and these type of things need to be discussed I think.
<< <i>...that long-term collector may think twice about buying some AT ticking time bomb of a coin that is likely to turn in the holder in the coming years, and have no financial recourse whatsoever.
The long term collector should already be concerned about this.
Plus, I take it you've never had a coin turn in the holder or develop milk spots after it was graded? try getting your money back from a bankrupt company or even one in reorgnization.
I do not buy graded coins in which milk-spotting is an issue. Anyone paying a premium for a "70" bullion coin should already be very concerned. As for coins turning in their holders, this is more complex. Some people may get stuck with them. Often these coins can be rescued and a professional service like NCS might get more business as a result.
You can't seriously tell me that there wouldn't be an impact were this to change dramatically by the company going under.
I did not say that there would be no impact. I just said that the coins would continue to trade at an appropriate grade. Perhaps some might consider them as raw. Many would probably get slabbed at NGC. The coin market would not come to a standstill. There would be a period of adjustment, and then business as usual. Coins were bought and sold before PCGS and will be bought and sold after PCGS. >>
And we always have CAC.....or we still do. Even if PCGS was not around, their overhead is lower. Seriously though, I don't see PCGS going away. Their business might change. That only concerns a shareholder and that whole game is outside this forum and the hobby. If they would weaken in the future with the reputation they have today, you don't think our friend who recently bought ANACS, or someone similar, wouldn't be considering buying them?
Right now, it is a matter of scale. They met a challenge before, when submissions were presumably declining, and began grading moderns. That was a big departure from what we heard only the year prior to that starting. They embraced a market that others were making $$$ on. Perhaps, they are just going to eventually face the situation that they cannot reasonably grow anymore and might even have to contract. If there is not sportscard frenzy, currency is out of favor, movie posters are just too damned big to do, and there are few new angles in coins to get the older ones back through the machine and Mint stuff isn't making it anymore. Actually, I think they will get older coins through again. The easiest is to change the holder with a very well considered and designed one that is extremely difficult to counterfeit or compromise and perhaps can show the coin's edge. Second, which requires more staff and expense, is to radically increase their variety service in all series. This is a vibrant part of the hobby that they neglected altogether for too long and have only begun to enter so far. It is also a service that aligns perfectly with third party grading. We saw the genuine service enhance and this would marry nicely in pulling marketshare form their two main peers. I know people don't like net grading. I don;t too. It is, in effect, valuation grading. I do, however, like details grading. See absolutely nothing wrong with it. Still is genuine with problems but assesses the appropriate grade which is in line with what third party grading should do in general anyway. So, adding details grading to the genuine service and working on enhancing the variety service responsibly but expeditiously could really improve things for some time. But it is their business and they have very smart folks who consider lots of things.
<< <i> After all is said and done, if these dealers and collectors can not grade...how is it that they can determine that PCGS (or any other TPG) properly graded a particular coin or not? >>
That's what happens when you have people dealing in a product that they do not fundamentally understand. Like the drug companies that have TV ads for prescription drugs showing all the happy people singing "Celebrate! Celebrate!" (side effects may include sexual disfunction and suicide). People run to their doctors and say "I don't know what that is, but I want some of it!"
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
some shockingly idiotic statements made in this thread. either some people are incomprehensibly stupid, or are lying to answer some twisted pathetic agenda.
if there's anyone on these boards that can speak to these issues w/out bias, it's me. every coin i get in a slab get cracked out. i have NO BIAS WHATSOEVER as to any brand of pla$tic, but it is PLAINLY OBVIOUS that ngc's pla$tic dominates pcgs in the mkt. by a huge margin.
no way in he11 are there more pcgs slabs then ngc at any typical large show, no way. gotta be AT LEAST THREE TO ONE in favor of ngc from what i see in inventories, probably quite a bit higher.
as for liquidity, you gotta be kidding me, if pcgs slabs are more liquid, its by a thin margin. if you truly believe that pcgs pla$tic sells for more, then you better believe that ngc pla$tic is gonna move fast, cause it's gonna be cheaper, too. so liquidity is a wash as far as i can tell.
anyone who believes there are more pcgs slabs then ngc at a show can't possibly be sober, or has incredibly bad eyesight.
<< <i>Funny how in an economic downtown, dealers will choose the TPG that is least likely to survive the downtown. This whole thread assumes that CLCT/PCGS survives and impending bankruptcy, which looks questionable considering the plummeting submissions, diving stock price and fact that they are laying off graders to stay afloat.
what happens to all of these coins then? will they retain their value fully if there isn't a company to back them up (or a company struggling in reorganization with very little capital?) Seems like these dealers are sailing on the Titanic and bragging about how unsinkable it is. >>
Considering Lehman Brothers, Panam, Montgomery Ward and Bethlehem Steel are out of business, any type of "investment" where most of the "value" depends of the continuing existence of a particular company is foolish. The builder of my house went bankrupt, but that didn't affect the value of my house, because "it is what it is." Can you say the same about your slabbed coins?
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>That's probably a signal of a market downturn. When downturns have occurred during the last few decades (in my experience), buyers (collectors and dealers looking for inventory material) get MUCH pickier. For some types of coins, NGC grading is less reliable that PCGS grading. Dealer refusal to consider NGC coins for purchase could also be a reflection of anticipated cash-flow problems. >>
Stock market down 47% this year, wholesale diamonds now down 20-25 % , antique cars down 10-30 %. houses down 15-30%, fancy art turning down...coins are not staying here for long
<< <i>some shockingly idiotic statements made in this thread. either some people are incomprehensibly stupid, or are lying to answer some twisted pathetic agenda.
if there's anyone on these boards that can speak to these issues w/out bias, it's me. every coin i get in a slab get cracked out. i have NO BIAS WHATSOEVER as to any brand of pla$tic, but it is PLAINLY OBVIOUS that ngc's pla$tic dominates pcgs in the mkt. by a huge margin.
no way in he11 are there more pcgs slabs then ngc at any typical large show, no way. gotta be AT LEAST THREE TO ONE in favor of ngc from what i see in inventories, probably quite a bit higher.
as for liquidity, you gotta be kidding me, if pcgs slabs are more liquid, its by a thin margin. if you truly believe that pcgs pla$tic sells for more, then you better believe that ngc pla$tic is gonna move fast, cause it's gonna be cheaper, too. so liquidity is a wash as far as i can tell.
anyone who believes there are more pcgs slabs then ngc at a show can't possibly be sober, or has incredibly bad eyesight.
get real
K S >>
Karl ... in all honesty... I have 20/20 vision and I haven't had a drink (or any other substance) in many years...
I know what I saw and experienced at the recent Baltimore show... and I know what I have seen and experienced at many other shows here on the eastern seaboard...
Maybe things are different in your neck of the woods...
As for liquidity... I do not consider being able to sell at an extreme discount (and/or loss) liquid. I had 40 slabs I wanted to sell and was willing to take a hit if I had to. As it turned out, I was able to sell around 10 slabbed coins and even turn a small profit...BUT only the PCGS coins... there was next to zero interest in the NGC coins at any price... and absolutely no interest in ANACS. (The 2 NGC/GSA Morgans I sold were sold at cost...no loss/no gain...some may call that liquid while I call it a waste of time and energy).
Again...I prefer my coins raw but have not completely "bucked" the market... I do keep some slabbed coins in my cases. Yet, whenever I purchase "fresh" coins in PCGS they tend to move rather quickly...the NGC coins move much slower and ANACS is, for the most part, DOA.
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
<< <i>I know what I saw and experienced at the recent Baltimore show... and I know what I have seen and experienced at many other shows here on the eastern seaboard...
Maybe things are different in your neck of the woods... >>
well you got a good point there, maybe it is different out east. guess i should say that in the midwest through the south, ngc absolutely dominates in terms of sheer #s of slabs on the mkt. it has gotta be like i said earlier at least 3 to 1 dominance, but i would guess its more then that.
based on the shows i have gotten to out west, it's a huge dominace by ngc that direction also.
to some of the quack jobs, notice i did'nt state a preference for either slab, cuz frankly i don't care 1 twit about the pla$tic. a coin looks like a coin once it's cracked out. but experience don't lie. i look at my 55 gallon drum of cracked slabs, no doubt about it, ngc rules market share, by a huge margin.
if anything, i would say ngc's share of the marketplace is increasing
i am also including ncs in this observation to some extent, but maybe pcgs's recent change in direction will help in that regard.
oh yeah, the market share by icg & anacs is laughable & shrinking practically by the month. again, take that from someone who has absolutely no pla$tic preference at all. just a matter of time before 1 or both are outta business.
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Why? Because they want to remain esoteric, and will not allow NGC coins on their Registry! If they gave NGC the same respect (Registry wise) that NGC gives them, prices would be equal. It's not really about the coins, it's all about the Registry. Personnally, I would buy a coin in either slab, IF I LIKED THE COIN! As far as the sevices go, I do like NGC better, simply because they recognize that their graders are NOT the only professionals out there! As for all the talk of PCGS being so flawless, seems like the CAC is stickering about the same amount from each sevice!
<< <i>That's probably a signal of a market downturn. When downturns have occurred during the last few decades (in my experience), buyers (collectors and dealers looking for inventory material) get MUCH pickier. For some types of coins, NGC grading is less reliable that PCGS grading. Dealer refusal to consider NGC coins for purchase could also be a reflection of anticipated cash-flow problems. >>
Good insight
I know these coins well enough. I've been collecting and learning grading for more than 40 years. My conclusions are:
1) PCGS is much tougher on copper. Perhaps it's their lifetime guarantee, not 8-10 years, as with NGC. On non-copper they are also stricter than NGC. But maybe that's a recent tightening trend both companies are following.
2) Dealers are reluctant to entertain NGC offers. They'll look at PCGS coins but brush aside NGC.
3) PCGS can't deal with color. They'd sooner BB a coin than risk a bad call.
4) Without exception, every dealer I talked to at shows encouraged me to take the hit and move to PCGS.
I agree that coins speak for themselves, regardless of dumb plastic slabs. But let's face it: coins are valuable and their market value depends on plastic. If you intend to keep your coins forever, who cares? But if you're like a lot of us who buy and sell, upgrade and move on, then the plastic matter big time.
Lance.
I've bought a lot of PCGS generic gold sight unseen over the past few years and believe me, there's not a whole heck of a lot of difference on the commonly shuffled around stuff. It's definitely easier to sell PCGS gold but I find that the 2 services are probably closer in MS gold than they are in silver type.
roadrunner
<< <i>I brought two boxes of coins for sale... PCGS, NGC, a few old green&white label PCI and some Blue ANACS slabs... all sorts of coins from a few widgets to Morgans to Commems to Trade Dollars and type coins... showed to a number of dealers, mainly trying out folks I do not usually deal with...
NO interest at all with ANACS or the old PCI...they did not (except one dealer) even look at the coins in those holders. A few looked at the NGC's quickly BUT they all took time with the PCGS coins and those are what ended up selling. For the record, my prices on all the coins, was 10% back of bid.
Larry - Now that we've established that we're talking about your experience at Baltimore, let's analyze what happened to you.
First question: Before your potential buyers went through your boxes, did you tell them that everything was priced at 10% below Graysheet? If the answer is "yes", that would explain their behavior. >>
No... I only said that if they saw anything they liked the prices would be attractive... perhaps that equates to the same thing...
Look...there are those dealers who are "known" to have a good eye...they also have a "following" of collectors who trust that eye...and they are also eclectic in their offerings and/or highly specialized... for these dealers there are no generalizations about holder types to be made... they select only "certain" coins based on the coins qualities with the holder as a secondary feature...BUT... BIG BUT... this is not indicative of the general market...
For the most part... among dealers who "know" how to look up Heritage auction prices but never look at the coins... and look at labels and plastic BUT rarely, if ever, really look at the coin... and that equates to ALOT of tables at a big show such as Baltimore... and for these dealers, PCGS= bigger bucks.
I have a hunch that the dealers who complained about Coinfest are the ones who fit this model. A show such as Coinfest is geared towards the collector...people who look for NICE coins...they look through the plastic...not at it...
Even at Coinfest I noticed this prevalent trend...I did a very fair share of business there... maybe 60% to dealers and 40% to collectors... most of my business was in RAW coins (probably 80%)... with some slabs... in the Dealer to Dealer sales involving slabs, they were only interested in PCGS coins... only one dealer there even considered any NGC coins in my cases... or any other holder... and he is one of those RARE dealers who deals in coins and could care less about the plastic... (oh yeah...there was one coin in NGC and with a CAC sticker...I had to sell that one at a loss just to move it for cash flow).
For those who need and/or prefer the plastic... there are 100's of dealers out there... I never have been one to go along with the crowd...
As I have said many a time... I collect and buy/sell coins ... some of them just happen to be in plastic... and I carry a tool at all shows that can cure that "problem" whenever some collector prefers the coin raw... and believe it or not, that happens more often than some here would ever think...
Amazing but true... there are actually a large number of coin collectors who prefer their collections "naked"... shocking but true...
Anyway... I drift off the topic here... For the most part... PCGS IS THE HOLDER OF CHOICE FOR THE GENERAL MARKET... and right now there is a trend to shy away from any other holder or heavily discount those coins not in this preferred plastic...
Seems that even the counterfeiters are getting to know that as well...
I will say that there seems to be some inconsistancies with NGC as well.
Example - Morgans - NGC seems to have found a default grade of NGC 62.
Sometimes this submitting of real nice coins only to have
them return with insulting grades - well, it's insulting!
Sometimes I wonder!
It's going to take REAL special, uniquely identifiable coins
for me to send orders in to EITHER company.
Back in 2006 when I crashed the numbers 17,859 MS66 and 15,071 MS67 total certified war nickels for those two MS grades. Adding those numbers we get 32,930. The % of MS66 graded coins is 54% while for the MS67 it's 46%.
Today we have 20,843 MS66 coins graded by NGC and 16,929 MS67's.
That's 3784 more MS66's and 1858 more MS67's!
PCGS has graded 14,677 MS66 war nickels coins while grading only 935 MS67's.
So what's the great news for NGC? They are now grading 67% MS66's and 33% MS67's, which means they are now grading 13% strictor since my first tally. I'd say, that is good news for the NGC faithful!
Leo
It's really interesting pondering the large gap between the two companies with the MS66 and MS67 grades. NGC must know that they could be doing better than that. They have chosen the higher road, so to speak but what about PCGS? They have 60% less submissions. And who's sending all those coins to NGC?
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
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2- No, not if the COINS are of equal Quality!
We buy coins - NOT Plastic!
Part of it is that many dealers don't know how to grade and that many buyers want only PCGS coins because they can't grade, either. Part of it also is that in the past, NGC overgraded quite a bit of material in specific coin series. Capped Bust Halves come to mind. I avoid NGC CBHs, because imo, the overwhelming majority of the nice ones have long since been crossed to PC holders. Most of them I've seen in NGC holders are about a 1/2 point lower than their PC counterparts. Ditto re RD IHCs.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I've had a big time dealer tell me personally that an "N4" (that is, a NGC 64) is equal to a "P3" regarding CBH's. And the mantra on the bourse floor when contemplating an NGC slab is always"...will this cross (to PCGS)"?
My own experience, however, does not bear this out. The reality is much worse. Yeah, I've had some cross grade for grade, but I've had an 1825 NGC 65 not even cross to 64! Worse, I had an 1831 64PL CBH come back with a sticker on the slab essentially body bagging the coin for altered surfaces!! Yet this has been the big lie: "NGC and PCGS are equal." How many times have we seen NGC coins go for a "bargain" at 10% less that PCGS prices? Over and over again. This practice is so common that thousands upon thousands of dollars have been made on this rouse. In fact, entire business models have be founded on this fallacy.
In truth we are dealing with dual realities. If a collector goes to buy, then NGC=PCGS, if he goes to sell, then NGC x =PCGS x-1. However, if the dealer is buying and selling, then the opposite is true.
I feel that I've been very civil in my commentary, but I've seen several responses to similar ideas including the criticism that the writer has "...(drunk) the (PCGS) kool aid..." In anticipation of this type of retort, I offer the following: if you've drunk the NGC kool aid, then fine--go sell you NGC slabs and see if PCGS=NGC.
<< <i>
And here's another total for the NgC faithful;
On the silver nickels 1942-P to 1945-S, MS only, NGC has graded 35,240 nickels. 17,859 were graded MS66,
15,071 were graded MS67! Add the MS66, MS67 numbers plus the MS68 and the star designated coins we add another 398 certified coins and we have a grand total of 33,328 out of 35,240 that were graded MS66 and higher! Anyone want to take a gander on how many MS65 coins NGC has graded over the years it has been in business?????
It's only 766!
Pcgs has only graded 784 MS67's war nickels to NGC's 15,071 !
Yes, I would definately question if NGC is or will ever get it right!
Recently, NGC has decided to make folks to pay to see their population report.
Take the above info seriously and keep your money. Or send me $25 for saving you hundreds!
Leo >>
There was a huge hoard of about 100,000 high quality war nickels that were discovered in the mid 1990s. The owners cut a deal with NGC
to have them graded for about $8 each when PCGS wanted $15. Plus NGC agreed to look at them and charge only $1 each (and return unslabbed)
any that did not grade at least MS66. So again, NO JUDGEMENTS can be made about the strictness of a grading service based on population reports. unless
you know how many are submitted to each service (unknown) AND that each service receives the same random distribution of coins (impossible.)
I bought 3 double row slab boxes of 1932-64 Washington quarters, Franklins, Mercury dimes and Morgans at the Grapevine TX show from Jack Copeland.
About 2/3 NGC, 1/3 PCGS. Sight seen, they all cost me the same, the dealer pays the same unless the coin is a dog, they all look about the same with the
normal plus-or-minus one point differences of opinion.
Both NGC and PCGS offer fine services. I sell both, and am an authorized dealer for both. PCGS is overly strict on modern 70s. NGC offers a dipping service,
so naturally there will be more dipped coins in NGC slabs, which a few collectors dislike. But the only CONSISTENT factor I see that PCGS coins are "better" is
is the snob factor. That's nice work if you can get it..ask Sony, or Rolex, or Neiman Marcus.
A few things.
In very ecoonomically uncertain times, dealers have to think about stagnant inventories and low cash flow. PCGS is just easier to move. In a downturn, they might lose a little on a PCGS slab, in a sight-unseen trade, but at least they'll get cash back in their wallet.
Dealers, to variable degrees, might like to "buy the coin, not the holder" but have to face the daily reality of making money trading one sort of widget or another -- using "widget" here as it is classically used to describe some unspecified product in the illustration of a business model not the popularized term for generic and easily replaceable coins. Whatever their widgets are, they need to focus on making the sales happen with their target customer base. PCGS is more reliably acceptable.
Today, with all of the TPGs being more finicky, nobody seems to be able to confidently and reliably predict their verdicts on a raw grade or a crossover. Who needs to get stuck with nice coins tha simply won't make the better (for te market) plastic?
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<< <i>At the Baltimore Show many dealers refused to even consider NGC coins, it seemed to be PCGS only. Whats going on here? Not that i am complaining, i am a PCGS man, just curious
Part of it is that many dealers don't know how to grade and that many buyers want only PCGS coins because they can't grade, either. Part of it also is that in the past, NGC overgraded quite a bit of material in specific coin series. Capped Bust Halves come to mind. I avoid NGC CBHs, because imo, the overwhelming majority of the nice ones have long since been crossed to PC holders. Most of them I've seen in NGC holders are about a 1/2 point lower than their PC counterparts. Ditto re RD IHCs. >>
While I can not argue with this... I find it quite amusing...
After all is said and done, if these dealers and collectors can not grade...how is it that they can determine that PCGS (or any other TPG) properly graded a particular coin or not?
<< <i>But the only CONSISTENT factor I see that PCGS coins are "better" is
is the snob factor. That's nice work if you can get it..ask Sony, or Rolex, or Neiman Marcus. >>
Interesting analogy. At one time (increasingly less so), SONY products WERE generally better
than any of the competition. Rolexes, on the other hand, apparently keep lousy time.
Anyway, for what it's worth, I think PCGS IS tighter OVERALL than NGC. This tends to
be reflected in the Bluesheet, where separate dealer buy prices are quoted for the major
grading services. On some coins, there's virtually no difference. On others, it is substantial.
<< <i>Can't believe I read through all this crap.
I'm with you!!!
Funny how in an economic downtown, dealers will choose the TPG that is least likely to survive the downtown. This whole thread assumes that CLCT/PCGS survives and impending bankruptcy, which looks questionable considering the plummeting submissions, diving stock price and fact that they are laying off graders to stay afloat.
what happens to all of these coins then? will they retain their value fully if there isn't a company to back them up (or a company struggling in reorganization with very little capital?) Seems like these dealers are sailing on the Titanic and bragging about how unsinkable it is.
<< <i>Funny how in an economic downtown, dealers will choose the TPG that is least likely to survive the downtown. This whole thread assumes that CLCT/PCGS survives and impending bankruptcy, which looks questionable considering the plummeting submissions, diving stock price and fact that they are laying off graders to stay afloat.
what happens to all of these coins then? will they retain their value fully if there isn't a company to back them up (or a company struggling in reorganization with very little capital?) Seems like these dealers are sailing on the Titanic and bragging about how unsinkable it is. >>
Ultimately, the dealer or collector is buying a coin at a certain price. Even if PCGS ceases to exist, which I think is very unlikely in the short run, the coin will be judged on its own merits, and the grade of the coin will be viewed in consideration of what the graders felt the coin should grade at the time of submission. Most will not care about the grade guarantee as in 99.9% of cases this is already a moot point.
<< <i>
<< <i>Funny how in an economic downtown, dealers will choose the TPG that is least likely to survive the downtown. This whole thread assumes that CLCT/PCGS survives and impending bankruptcy, which looks questionable considering the plummeting submissions, diving stock price and fact that they are laying off graders to stay afloat.
what happens to all of these coins then? will they retain their value fully if there isn't a company to back them up (or a company struggling in reorganization with very little capital?) Seems like these dealers are sailing on the Titanic and bragging about how unsinkable it is. >>
Ultimately, the dealer or collector is buying a coin at a certain price. Even if PCGS ceases to exist, which I think is very unlikely in the short run, the coin will be judged on its own merits, and the grade of the coin will be viewed in consideration of what the graders felt the coin should grade at the time of submission. Most will not care about the grade guarantee as in 99.9% of cases this is already a moot point. >>
yeah okay, good logic. So the very early and correctly graded ANACS/ANA, Hallmark and David Hall graded coins usually fetch as much as their PCGS counterparts? Plus, I take it you've never had a coin turn in the holder or develop milk spots after it was graded? try getting your money back from a bankrupt company or even one in reorgnization.
There has become so much talk of plastic holders here on this forum, not the coins themselves, almost so that the company slabbing is held in higher esteem than the coin itself. You can't seriously tell me that there wouldn't be an impact were this to change dramatically by the company going under.
The dealer and "flipper" type collector may not immediately care too much in the short term, but that long-term collector may think twice about buying some AT ticking time bomb of a coin that is likely to turn in the holder in the coming years, and have no financial recourse whatsoever.
Congrats, Chris... glad you came on board...
my early American coins & currency: -- http://yankeedoodlecoins.com/
The long term collector should already be concerned about this.
Plus, I take it you've never had a coin turn in the holder or develop milk spots after it was graded? try getting your money back from a bankrupt company or even one in reorgnization.
I do not buy graded coins in which milk-spotting is an issue. Anyone paying a premium for a "70" bullion coin should already be very concerned. As for coins turning in their holders, this is more complex. Some people may get stuck with them. Often these coins can be rescued and a professional service like NCS might get more business as a result.
You can't seriously tell me that there wouldn't be an impact were this to change dramatically by the company going under.
I did not say that there would be no impact. I just said that the coins would continue to trade at an appropriate grade. Perhaps some might consider them as raw. Many would probably get slabbed at NGC. The coin market would not come to a standstill. There would be a period of adjustment, and then business as usual. Coins were bought and sold before PCGS and will be bought and sold after PCGS.
<< <i>...that long-term collector may think twice about buying some AT ticking time bomb of a coin that is likely to turn in the holder in the coming years, and have no financial recourse whatsoever.
The long term collector should already be concerned about this.
I agree completely. however, when a company is still in business and can fully compensate the collector/victim, it allows the collector of these types of coins such added assurance.
Plus, I take it you've never had a coin turn in the holder or develop milk spots after it was graded? try getting your money back from a bankrupt company or even one in reorgnization.
I do not buy graded coins in which milk-spotting is an issue. Anyone paying a premium for a "70" bullion coin should already be very concerned. As for coins turning in their holders, this is more complex. Some people may get stuck with them. Often these coins can be rescued and a professional service like NCS might get more business as a result.
I too only collect bullion for their silver value, and won't buy slabbed bullion. I personally think the MS/PF 70 market will be the first to crash and burn, at least to the relative values they have enjoyed of late. A conserved coin is a possibility, but one must pay NCS to do it after the fact and that may or may not work (in the case of bullion milk spotting, it won't work). Regardless, the collector will receive nothing back from the company that guaranteed the grade, another big negative for new or seasonsed collectors alike.
You can't seriously tell me that there wouldn't be an impact were this to change dramatically by the company going under.
I did not say that there would be no impact. I just said that the coins would continue to trade at an appropriate grade. Perhaps some might consider them as raw. Many would probably get slabbed at NGC. The coin market would not come to a standstill. There would be a period of adjustment, and then business as usual. Coins were bought and sold before PCGS and will be bought and sold after PCGS. >>
I agree that the coin market would not come to a standstill, but some coins may not trade for an appropriate grade depending on the type of coin. Whatever TPG is left standing may not want to 'cross' bullion for fear of milkspotting, the same goes for toners . If some go from putting a high and deserved premium on them, to considering them raw, then a whole segment of collector is screwed out of that premium from holder of the now defunct company.
I fully believe that we "need" two major TPGs. Right now as it stands, some coins sell for huge premiums in PCGS holders, while others sell for huge premiums in NGC holders. Having one company as top dog for a little while will throw the market off. Eventually, another TPG would emerge to challenge the other, which will act as the balance we see today. This is a good thread, and these type of things need to be discussed I think.
<< <i>...that long-term collector may think twice about buying some AT ticking time bomb of a coin that is likely to turn in the holder in the coming years, and have no financial recourse whatsoever.
The long term collector should already be concerned about this.
Plus, I take it you've never had a coin turn in the holder or develop milk spots after it was graded? try getting your money back from a bankrupt company or even one in reorgnization.
I do not buy graded coins in which milk-spotting is an issue. Anyone paying a premium for a "70" bullion coin should already be very concerned. As for coins turning in their holders, this is more complex. Some people may get stuck with them. Often these coins can be rescued and a professional service like NCS might get more business as a result.
You can't seriously tell me that there wouldn't be an impact were this to change dramatically by the company going under.
I did not say that there would be no impact. I just said that the coins would continue to trade at an appropriate grade. Perhaps some might consider them as raw. Many would probably get slabbed at NGC. The coin market would not come to a standstill. There would be a period of adjustment, and then business as usual. Coins were bought and sold before PCGS and will be bought and sold after PCGS. >>
And we always have CAC.....or we still do. Even if PCGS was not around, their overhead is lower. Seriously though, I don't see PCGS going away. Their business might change. That only concerns a shareholder and that whole game is outside this forum and the hobby. If they would weaken in the future with the reputation they have today, you don't think our friend who recently bought ANACS, or someone similar, wouldn't be considering buying them?
Right now, it is a matter of scale. They met a challenge before, when submissions were presumably declining, and began grading moderns. That was a big departure from what we heard only the year prior to that starting. They embraced a market that others were making $$$ on. Perhaps, they are just going to eventually face the situation that they cannot reasonably grow anymore and might even have to contract. If there is not sportscard frenzy, currency is out of favor, movie posters are just too damned big to do, and there are few new angles in coins to get the older ones back through the machine and Mint stuff isn't making it anymore. Actually, I think they will get older coins through again. The easiest is to change the holder with a very well considered and designed one that is extremely difficult to counterfeit or compromise and perhaps can show the coin's edge. Second, which requires more staff and expense, is to radically increase their variety service in all series. This is a vibrant part of the hobby that they neglected altogether for too long and have only begun to enter so far. It is also a service that aligns perfectly with third party grading. We saw the genuine service enhance and this would marry nicely in pulling marketshare form their two main peers. I know people don't like net grading. I don;t too. It is, in effect, valuation grading. I do, however, like details grading. See absolutely nothing wrong with it. Still is genuine with problems but assesses the appropriate grade which is in line with what third party grading should do in general anyway. So, adding details grading to the genuine service and working on enhancing the variety service responsibly but expeditiously could really improve things for some time. But it is their business and they have very smart folks who consider lots of things.
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<< <i> After all is said and done, if these dealers and collectors can not grade...how is it that they can determine that PCGS (or any other TPG) properly graded a particular coin or not?
That's what happens when you have people dealing in a product that they do not fundamentally understand. Like the drug companies that have TV ads for prescription drugs showing all the happy people singing "Celebrate! Celebrate!" (side effects may include sexual disfunction and suicide). People run to their doctors and say "I don't know what that is, but I want some of it!"
if there's anyone on these boards that can speak to these issues w/out bias, it's me. every coin i get in a slab get cracked out. i have NO BIAS WHATSOEVER as to any brand of pla$tic, but it is PLAINLY OBVIOUS that ngc's pla$tic dominates pcgs in the mkt. by a huge margin.
no way in he11 are there more pcgs slabs then ngc at any typical large show, no way. gotta be AT LEAST THREE TO ONE in favor of ngc from what i see in inventories, probably quite a bit higher.
as for liquidity, you gotta be kidding me, if pcgs slabs are more liquid, its by a thin margin. if you truly believe that pcgs pla$tic sells for more, then you better believe that ngc pla$tic is gonna move fast, cause it's gonna be cheaper, too. so liquidity is a wash as far as i can tell.
anyone who believes there are more pcgs slabs then ngc at a show can't possibly be sober, or has incredibly bad eyesight.
get real
K S
<< <i>Funny how in an economic downtown, dealers will choose the TPG that is least likely to survive the downtown. This whole thread assumes that CLCT/PCGS survives and impending bankruptcy, which looks questionable considering the plummeting submissions, diving stock price and fact that they are laying off graders to stay afloat.
what happens to all of these coins then? will they retain their value fully if there isn't a company to back them up (or a company struggling in reorganization with very little capital?) Seems like these dealers are sailing on the Titanic and bragging about how unsinkable it is. >>
Considering Lehman Brothers, Panam, Montgomery Ward and Bethlehem Steel are out of business, any type of "investment" where most of the "value" depends of the continuing existence of a particular company is foolish. The builder of my house went bankrupt, but that didn't affect the value of my house, because "it is what it is." Can you say the same about your slabbed coins?
<< <i>That's probably a signal of a market downturn. When downturns have occurred during the last few decades (in my experience), buyers (collectors and dealers looking for inventory material) get MUCH pickier. For some types of coins, NGC grading is less reliable that PCGS grading. Dealer refusal to consider NGC coins for purchase could also be a reflection of anticipated cash-flow problems. >>
Stock market down 47% this year, wholesale diamonds now down 20-25 % , antique cars down 10-30 %. houses down 15-30%, fancy art turning down...coins are not staying here for long
<< <i>some shockingly idiotic statements made in this thread. either some people are incomprehensibly stupid, or are lying to answer some twisted pathetic agenda.
if there's anyone on these boards that can speak to these issues w/out bias, it's me. every coin i get in a slab get cracked out. i have NO BIAS WHATSOEVER as to any brand of pla$tic, but it is PLAINLY OBVIOUS that ngc's pla$tic dominates pcgs in the mkt. by a huge margin.
no way in he11 are there more pcgs slabs then ngc at any typical large show, no way. gotta be AT LEAST THREE TO ONE in favor of ngc from what i see in inventories, probably quite a bit higher.
as for liquidity, you gotta be kidding me, if pcgs slabs are more liquid, its by a thin margin. if you truly believe that pcgs pla$tic sells for more, then you better believe that ngc pla$tic is gonna move fast, cause it's gonna be cheaper, too. so liquidity is a wash as far as i can tell.
anyone who believes there are more pcgs slabs then ngc at a show can't possibly be sober, or has incredibly bad eyesight.
get real
K S >>
Karl ... in all honesty... I have 20/20 vision and I haven't had a drink (or any other substance) in many years...
I know what I saw and experienced at the recent Baltimore show... and I know what I have seen and experienced at many other shows here on the eastern seaboard...
Maybe things are different in your neck of the woods...
As for liquidity... I do not consider being able to sell at an extreme discount (and/or loss) liquid. I had 40 slabs I wanted to sell and was willing to take a hit if I had to. As it turned out, I was able to sell around 10 slabbed coins and even turn a small profit...BUT only the PCGS coins... there was next to zero interest in the NGC coins at any price... and absolutely no interest in ANACS. (The 2 NGC/GSA Morgans I sold were sold at cost...no loss/no gain...some may call that liquid while I call it a waste of time and energy).
Again...I prefer my coins raw but have not completely "bucked" the market... I do keep some slabbed coins in my cases. Yet, whenever I purchase "fresh" coins in PCGS they tend to move rather quickly...the NGC coins move much slower and ANACS is, for the most part, DOA.
Yes some coins do bring more in PCGS holders but IMO that is not across the board.
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<< <i>I know what I saw and experienced at the recent Baltimore show... and I know what I have seen and experienced at many other shows here on the eastern seaboard...
Maybe things are different in your neck of the woods... >>
well you got a good point there, maybe it is different out east. guess i should say that in the midwest through the south, ngc absolutely dominates in terms of sheer #s of slabs on the mkt. it has gotta be like i said earlier at least 3 to 1 dominance, but i would guess its more then that.
based on the shows i have gotten to out west, it's a huge dominace by ngc that direction also.
to some of the quack jobs, notice i did'nt state a preference for either slab, cuz frankly i don't care 1 twit about the pla$tic. a coin looks like a coin once it's cracked out. but experience don't lie. i look at my 55 gallon drum of cracked slabs, no doubt about it, ngc rules market share, by a huge margin.
if anything, i would say ngc's share of the marketplace is increasing
i am also including ncs in this observation to some extent, but maybe pcgs's recent change in direction will help in that regard.
K S
K S