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1927 St Gauden, I Found 20 minutes ago
Binkmiester
Posts: 22
Well, found a cache of a few more coins of silver and gold. This one was interesting because it has a MS-64 rating. If I understand what I have read in a very short time, my mother seems to have been collecting coins not just as a gold bullion substitute but for their value as collectables, though she does have some gold bullion sets in there along with about 8 1980 Kruegerrands. Here are a couple of images of the 1927 coin, what do you think? Where does one sell these, on eBay or local coin dealers? How do you really know their value? I know these are all newbie questions, it's just at bit overwhelming. I had seen some of her silver coins at the house, but I thought was 2am TV buying. She bought most of the gold coins in the 80's and 90's long before eBay. I digress, any thoughts on this coin would be interesting to me. Thanks everyone who answered the last post also. Here goes again:
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Comments
and easily worth more then 1300 assuming if the MS64 rating is
a third party grading service like PCGS, NGC, or ANACS.
From the pics, it does seem like an easy MS coin.
Scott
I auctioned a nice 1927 pcgs graded ms64 on eBay in march it sold for $1250.
You might want to join the pcgs collector club and send these coins in for grading.
<< <i>Looks like a uncirculated saint. Trying to grade a ms coin from a scan in pretty difficult.
You might want to join the pcgs collector club and send these coins in for grading. >>
good advice. if that coin grades 64 from PCGS it would easily fetch
more then 1400.
Imagine though it goes 65... now it would be worth 2000...
So before ever think about selling... you may want to get a third
party to grade it so you do not leave money on the table!
Still worth around $1000 IMO. $800-$900 if you take it to a dealer.
A question, does it matter how long a coin has been in a slab? My Mother's records say she bought this in 1985. Do you ever have to have them regraded?
She may not kill you if your hobby includes coming up with beauties like this!
Nice find!
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
Leave it right where it is. Coins in the oldest generation slabs (like yours) have a certain mystique unto themselves, since many collectors believe that grading standards have loosened up over the years. PCGS started in business in 1986, so your mom's coin couldn't have been purchased in 1985.
The only reason I ever have a coin regraded is when I think it is undergraded and I'm willing to spend the money for a new grading to find out.
Getting a coin reholdered is a different matter. I'll do it if the holder becomes cracked, badly chipped, or badly scratched.
Unless a coin goes "bad" in the holder, there is no reason to have it regraded. In your case, the coin is in a first generation holder which may actually bring a small premium if you were to sell it. Additionally, PCGS maintains records on all their slabbed coins, so anyone can confirm the information on the slab. From the PCGS database:
COIN INFORMATION
Cert Verification #: 9052175
PCGS Coin #: 9186
Date, mintmark: 1927
Denomination: $20
Variety:
Minor Variety:
Mint Error:
Pedigree:
Country: The United States of America
Grade: MS64
Mintage: 2,946,750
PCGS Price GuideSM Value: $1,565
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
like i said bink. easy MS coin. i am happy for you.
what is the lesson here? if the coin was raw many people would
take advantage of you when you tried to sell it. attempt to explain
why the coin is only au58 and worth 900.
but all of a sudden, when graded by PCGS... people cannot lie
directly to your face or their poor grading skills are thrown out the
window.
slap that on ebay and you will get the fair value for it.
so the lesson is this: in coin collecting.. there are many sharks out
there. learn to avoid them and understand why a coin has a certain
value for yourself.
nice coin!
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
<< <i>haha. shows the slab and some have to back pedal oh so fast. >>
I stand by my grade appraisal: Based on the photos it doesn't look like a 64 to me.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>
<< <i>haha. shows the slab and some have to back pedal oh so fast. >>
I stand by my grade appraisal: Based on the photos it doesn't look like a 64 to me. >>
I did not mean for you to feel it was a direct attack on you dennis.
But come on.. that is a pretty original looking coin from the pics.
It has a ton of luster and no obvious wear I can see. Luster means
everything and that break should not stop it from being a 64. A 65
sure.. but that would be one heck of a PQ 63 if available at that
grade level.
At the time I just thought it was hilarious the new forum member
surprised us all by telling us the coin was slabbed by PCGS as 64
and now many have to back pedal on their grade guesses.
--
My real point was that if that coin was raw and Bink walked it into
a coin store... i have a hard time thinking a dealer would offer 63
money for it. I highly doubt it unless you just happened to walk into
a store that was manned by one of the many honest dealers who
participate here. Even then they would have to lowball it a bit to make
sure they could profit on it!
I learned a lot about the coin and the history of coin grading. I even figured out how to find the db listing on the PCGS site, now that I know it was a company and that they probably had a site. So I thank everyone for their comments. I just wish I could get the camera to work right to get the real luster!
Okay, so after I read the comments left around 1 pm or so, I decided to go to a dealer and see what they said. The offer made by two different dealer this afternoon as $800 and $850. Both told me that it was an early slab (that word comes so easy so fast...) back when PCGS did not know what they were doing, so it was overgraded. I have to say I decided to go with CoinDeuce et al below. I did not say anything to the dealers because I am not a primetime reporter and they were polite the whole time. I thanked them for their time and thanked my lucky stars that I had run this by a group of knowledgeable people ahead of time. Mind you, I know dealers have to weather up and downs in gold prices and collectable prices to provide a local market, but that was a bit much for me. So I am talking this over with my sister, the other person involved in the estate. I think we will have to sell it, depending on what she wants to do, and if we do, I will use the BST on this board.
The coin is worth more... a lot more... every day of the week.
That makes me laugh, because it is widely believed that PCGS was CONSERVATIVE in this time frame. If you want to know the real value, search completed auctions on ebay, Heritage, and Teletrade.
Which two dealers did you bring the coin to?
They call me "Pack the Ripper"
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
I don't think I've ever seen an early rattler $20 Saint that was overgraded. While at times I'm disappointed that they aren't an upgrade (in this case to MS65), that except for copper spotting, most are solid or PQ compared to present day MS64's. PCGS was indeed very conservative in grading back in 1986-1989 when this was slabbed. When gold was much cheaper ($550-$800) I often could get a 10-50% premium for PQ MS64 rattlers. With any slabbed PCGS MS64 now fetching over $1200 it's a tad harder to recover an additional premium unless the coin is essentially an upgrade MS65.
The sell price on MS64's as of Nov 3rd was around $1250. It will be slightly higher today. That would tell me that the market-maker dealer buy price on these is at least $1150. One must also realize that the premiums on these are just as high as when gold was at $1033 back in March. It is not clear how long these premiums will exist but seem to be related to the overall shortage in 1 oz gold coins. When gold hit $730 for the first time back in April 2006, MS64's flirted with $1000.
If such a coin were plunked down in front of me and I liked it, I'd have no qualms paying $1200 based on today's spot price of $750+.
roadrunner
coin dealers for the most part are out to make money and rip people
who walk into their stores.
they basically offered you melt plus 100.
<< <i>just as i predicted.
coin dealers for the most part are out to make money and rip people
who walk into their stores.
they basically offered you melt plus 100. >>
Agree. I think these dealer's names should be posted as a warning to other forum members.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
<< <i>
<< <i>just as i predicted.
coin dealers for the most part are out to make money and rip people
who walk into their stores.
they basically offered you melt plus 100. >>
Agree. I think these dealer's names should be posted as a warning to other forum members. >>
+1, OUT THE CON ARTISTS!
I am a bit reticent about naming names on a public board. However I can say I live in the Research Triangle Area of North Carolina, and I will send you a private message with their names if you wish, just message me. I do have written offers from each.
You can live and die by the greysheet....literally. You can certainly sell too cheap and hold out for something unrealistic. On top of that the darn thing is often a week old by the time you're quoting on it. I don't think you're going to find very many dealers buying at $1210 when 2 major gold players were selling around $1255 yesterday. Those guys don't work on 3-4% as a rule. Smaller dealers work on a larger spread. Let's also take into account that MS64 saints were $1450 or so just a couple of weeks ago when gold was at $760. They've dropped $200 already on a coin that when gold was much higher, sold for much less than $1200. The last time gold was at $730 a few years ago those sold for $1000. These things can move $50 or more in one day. Poof.....there goes your "profit." And one single carbon spot on the coin and it's worth $50 minimum less...poof...there goes your "profit" again.
I recall a great example of CDN "lies" back in the 1990-91 market. I had raw "MS65" Columbian that I got slabbed. Lo and behold it came back NGC MS65. Bid on the CDN at the time was $3200. I called up a major commem dealer from Illinois who offered me $2800 over the phone. Well, I refused on the grounds that "CDN was $3200" and who was he kidding. He told me that his number was fair and that there was a promotion in these going on (ie one buyer only at that number) and was afraid the price could cave if he had the coin too long. I didn't buy the story.
Well I went shopping that coin for a couple of weeks trying to get the $3200. No one would even offer anything near $3000. Well sure enough the price caved (ie the promotion started winding down just as the dealer had predicted). Now he offered me something like $1800 vs a bid of $2500 and I still passed. Another 6-12 months or so went by and I dumped the coin to that dealer for $1200 as it was apparent that the promotion was dead...and what he told me up front was the truth. So much for the CDN! Today that same coin is worth $450-$600. Live and die by the CDN as they say.
roadrunner
<< <i>MS 64 common date Saints are being bought by dealers for $1210 right now (CDN Bid). I would not take any less than that from a dealer. Arm yourself with the Greysheet for common coins such as Saints (www.greysheet.com) and you will be able to avoid being taken advantage of when it comes to selling to dealers.
You can live and die by the greysheet....literally. You can certainly sell too cheap and hold out for something unrealistic. On top of that the darn thing is often a week old by the time you're quoting on it. I don't think you're going to find very many dealers buying at $1210 when 2 major gold players were selling around $1255 yesterday. Those guys don't work on 3-4% as a rule. Smaller dealers work on a larger spread. Let's also take into account that MS64 saints were $1450 or so just a couple of weeks ago when gold was at $760. They've dropped $200 already on a coin that when gold was much higher, sold for much less than $1200. The last time gold was at $730 a few years ago those sold for $1000. These things can move $50 or more in one day. Poof.....there goes your "profit." And one single carbon spot on the coin and it's worth $50 minimum less...poof...there goes your "profit" again.
I recall a great example of CDN "lies" back in the 1990-91 market. I had raw "MS65" Columbian that I got slabbed. Low and behold it came back NGC MS65. Bid on the CDN at the time was $3200. I called up a major commem dealer from Illinois who offered me $2800 over the phone. Well, I refused on the grounds that "CDN was $3200" and who was he kidding. He told me that his number was fair and that there was a promotion in these going on (ie one buyer only at that number) and was afraid the price could cave if he had the coin too long. Yeah right!
Well I went shopping that coin for a couple of weeks trying to get the $3200. No one would even offer anything near $3000. Well sure enough the price caved (ie the promotion started winding down just as the dealer had predicted). How he offered me something like $1800 vs a bid of $2500 and I still passed. Another 6-12 months or so went by and I dumped the coin to that dealer for $1200 as it was apparent that the promotion was falling apart...and what he told me up front was the truth. So much for the CDN! Today that same coin is worth $450-$600. Live and die by the CDN as they say.
roadrunner >>
So u would sell for what? The last one (1927 PCGS MS 64) on Heritage sold for more than 1600 just before the 10/31 CDN came out. The gold prices have fallen back a bit, but if a dealer is assuming that the prices will fall more, either find another dealer, or hold for the price of gold to come back up, which it will. The market for these is still very strong, and there is a shortage. This dealer or dealers offering 8-900 is just looking to be able to make $3-400 on that coin or more. For common coins, the sheet is what I see dealers, at least reputable ones, using. In fact, the wholesale dealer I buy from (I am not a dealer, just one of his few regular customers) always goes off of sheet levels when selling and buying to me and other dealers. Dealers swear by the sheet when it comes to buying. But when the gold premiums are high, they can BS you big time. BTW, an MS 63 has a bid of $1140.
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
do keep in mind that the PCGS price guide is on the high side. For a true value of what buyers are paying for a particular coin search Ebay's "completed items" listings. If you decide to sell I highly recommend the Buy, Sell and Trade forum here. With it you are connected to a great bunch of collectors. BST is not an auction, so have a price in mind when you list the coin here. Good luck. If it were me, I'd be in no rush to sell. Spend some time determining each coin's true value. I predict you will "suddenly" become a collector and hang on to them.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
I'd sell you all my 64's for $1250 if I didn't intend to keep them for several years longer. Then again, I could have sold them at $1400 as well and did not.
And as far as that $1600 price on Heritage, that was one single coin. And I'd bet dollars to donuts it was a PQ specimen that 2 people were thinking MS65 on. Average 64's don't sell for $1600....except maybe on ebay when the market is 20% lower. It's also possible that some Heritage bidders locked in their bids too early and got caught by the slide in slabbed Saint prices. It happens and they end up paying well over market.
In any Heritage auction you can find MS64's going for many different prices such as $1175 (low end heavily spotted crap), $1200-$1225 (low end), $1250 (average), $1300 (pq), $1350 (possible shot coin), $1400-$1500 (lock MS65), $1600+ lock MS65 and very choice. Heck, I've even seen MS64's sell for near MS66 money which told me 2 people felt it was a lock 66 upgrade. One can't hang their hat on one single price for such a common coin and call it "the market."
roadrunner
<< <i>So u would sell for what? The last one (1927 PCGS MS 64) on Heritage sold for more than 1600 just before the 10/31 CDN came out.
I'd sell you all my 64's for $1250 if I didn't intend to keep them for several years longer. Then again, I could have sold them at $1400 as well and did not.
And as far as that $1600 price on Heritage, that was one single coin. And I'd bet dollars to donuts it was a PQ specimen that 2 people were thinking MS65 on. Average 64's don't sell for $1600....except maybe on ebay when the market is 20% lower. It's also possible that some Heritage bidders locked in their bids too early and got caught by the slide in slabbed Saint prices. It happens and they end up paying well over market.
In any Heritage auction you can find MS64's going for many different prices such as $1175 (low end heavily spotted crap), $1200-$1225 (low end), $1250 (average), $1300 (pq), $1350 (possible shot coin), $1400-$1500 (lock MS65), $1600+ lock MS65 and very choice. Heck, I've even seen MS64's sell for near MS66 money which told me 2 people felt it was a lock 66 upgrade. One can't hang their hat on one single price for such a common coin and call it "the market."
roadrunner >>
Yeah the auction coins tend to vary in price just like the quality of the coin. Point is do your research. You should be able to get right near latest sheet. Even the other 64's were selling for 1250 to 1450 or even more on Heritage. Know what the wholesale level is and negotiate to it and don't take dealer crap. Lotsa slime out there!
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
DerryB, "I predict you will "suddenly" become a collector and hang on to them." My wife is very worried about that. Keeps muttering something about an "addictive personality". She keeps bringing up the three telescopes and the observatory, like that should have anything to do with the pretty pretty coins.
Maybe I can see her on the investment angle... She's pretty smart... I think I might have to pick between her and the coins.
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<< <i>Wow, I am going to have to read this part fo the thread a couple of ties. Lots of good information. Thanks, everyone.
DerryB, "I predict you will "suddenly" become a collector and hang on to them." My wife is very worried about that. Keeps muttering something about an "addictive personality". She keeps bringing up the three telescopes and the observatory, like that should have anything to do with the pretty pretty coins.
Maybe I can see her on the investment angle... She's pretty smart... I think I might have to pick between her and the coins.
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an answer to that problem is to share. learn a bit about selling coins
and offer her the money to go on a spree or start her own hobby.
keep the ones you like the most for yourself. like that saint. pretty coin.