I attended the Vermeulle sale as well and picked up a few seated and bust coins from the sale. I went to buy the amazing original 1869 seated half or dollar and got beat out by Legend who was buying the whole set for a customer. That was clear to me after Laura picked up the first 3 pieces. I could have run her up on the quarter and half but sort of backed off. Those were some of the finest proof quarters, halves and dollars I've ever seen. I did end up with the gem 1818/15 quarter so not all lost.
I spent the most time looking at the 1893-s dollar and was just floored by it. It has the cleanest surfaces of any MS68 or MS67 I've ever looked at, including 80-s and 81-s Morgans. I graded the coin superb MS67 and figured it would sell for around $500K. It was a lock 67 in my mind with great eye appeal and luster. I'd never seen a common date MS67 Morgan this clean or flawless. In the 10 minutes I spent looking for marks I didn't find any that counted. My description was "wow, superb 67! color! luster! wow." Perfect cheek, eagle's breast, etc. Simply incredible. There couldn't be a finer one. The coin sold for $360K + juice or $414K. What a rip. As soon as the auction ended I wished I had gotten members of my family together to buy the coin. But $400K doesn't grow on trees. At that time the CDN bids were $350K for 66 and $550K for MS67. I concluded that several buyers got together and kept the price down a bit. The market did not stink enough imo in November 2001 for this to bring this amount. But then again, this was my first major auction in years and I was somewhat bullish on coins.
With all the hoopla over the coin today at $1MILL plus (ie a once in a lifetime opportunity), I have just have to ask why this wasn't purchased by Legend or other major dollar dealer when the price was incredibly right....and also a "once" in a lifetime opportinity...though only a 7 year lifetime earlier Even a non-Morgan collector like myself (ie a proverbial 5th grader) knew this coin was a bargain. And like Sunnywood, I loved the look of the coin. I also felt that an MS68 grade would not be unfair. There had to be others there as well who felt the same.
roadrunner, you're a better man than I am !! I was too chicken to bid the raw coin up to what were then 67 levels. And while the 2001 price seems cheap now, it not did not seem cheap then. I believe it was, even then, still a record price paid for any Morgan dollar ever.
We quickly lose our price perspective in a bubble, which is where we are now with respect to high end coins. Six- and seven-figure prices have become so routine. The asset bubble is just showing signs of deflating or bursting in the art and antiques markets; it is only a matter of time before it hits the coin market, where it is quite overdue. I remember the first six-figure auction coins ... now six figures is routine and irrelevant. This cannot continue unabated when $20 trillion in equities, and countless more trillions in real estate and fixed income have been erased worldwide.
That having been said, in any market, a coin like the Vermeule '93-S will always be at the top of the mountain, even if the mountain is smaller.
Sunnywood, my comments on the 93-s were based on my 2001 perspective when things were't so obviously rosy for the coin market. Still, to me, the coin seemed cheap at $414K compared against it's MS67 bid value of $550K. If that bid value was out to lunch then I completely understand your view. So what was that coin worth the day it holdered as MS67....the same $414K?
what i find funny is the steaming pile of hypocrisy with these coins. Over the years, if anyone awards more gift grades based on white (dipped) coins, it's PCGS. The fact that the Norweb left their grasp and had this performed, has them butt hurt? funny.......
rr, the coin was probably worth $500K - $550K the day it was holdered. Jack Lee later asked $800K for it, but sold it for $700K. (Actually what happened was that he sold the two 67's together for $1.4 million.) The guy who bought them was a very wealthy investor, who immediately put a price tag of $1 million on each coin. Later, he wanted $1.2 million for each coin. (Yes, we've been in a bubble.) More recently, he ran into trouble of his own and had to sell. Of course I don't know what Legend paid for the coin, but chances are they got it at a good price. I was always one or two steps behind in willingness or ability to pay, but the seller's agent (Chris Napolitano) undoubtedly made a mistake by failing to remember that I wanted the coin.
doogy, you are right. PCGS has favored dipped white coins, although perhaps not as much as NGC has rewarded conservation by upgrading coins that have been NCS'd. At least PCGS isn't running a dipping mill like NCS. However, once PCGS has confirmation that the coin has been removed from their slab, they have every right to remove it from the pop reports. And indeed, I just confirmed that the pop in 67 has been reduced from 2 to 1.
I have an 1884-S PCGS MS62 (not the one I posted in the "Don't judge a coin by its image" thread.) The coin is so undergraded that it's not funny. David Akers grades it a probable 64. PCGS left it at 62, even with Presidential review, with the comment that, "The toning is a little negative." (The coin is not dark, and it is still flashy, so I don't get it.) I actually have the coin back at PCGS again now ... if I dipped it, I'm sure it would go straight into a 63 holder no questions asked. But of course i won't do that.
broadstruck, they're in the other thread, but here are copies: (Vermeule PCGS MS67, Eliasberg PCGS MS65, Norweb NGC MS67). I don't have good images for the Vermeule coin. It is nicer than these images suggest, but it is definitely most attractive in the eyes of those who appreciate originality.
Edited to add: here is the original image of the Vermeule coin from the 2001 auction, downloaded from Stack's website at the time:
You can read more about this coin when it was offered by ANR here (but did not sell):
This is where I got the mistaken $575K figure from - it was the starting bid at this sale. When I saw that, I planned to bid; but when I got to the auction, I found out that it was reserved at $800K (would have been $920K with the juice), which was more than I was willing to pay at the time.
The Vermuele coin's toning is of the type that does not image well. It's a beautiful piece that I personally would love to own.... and I *hate* Morgans!
So hard to compare when images are shot at different times by different photographers.
My own gut reaction based solely on these pics: Norweb piece bores me, looks like it may have been dipped, and I *HATE* the black spot on the cheek... easily the worst of the three. Vermeule piece looks interesting, but the images really are subpar. The top pics of the coin make it seem like the coin was messed with. To me the Eliasberg is the nicest of the 3... drop-dead gorgeous, and I absolutely love the mark-free fields. I'm a bit wary of how the color really looks though, as TrueView pics oversaturate color.
Considering that the Eliasberg piece would probably sell at a considerable discount from the other two, I'd take it in a heartbeat... but who am I foolin', any of these coins are several orders of magnitude more expensive than any coin I've ever bought.
The Vermeule coin is absolutely natural and original, and is better looking than the pics. The top pics are from ANR, whose images are usually overexposed with high brightness; but I enhanced them in Photoshop to try to make them look more like the coin (unsuccessfully though). Still, this is a coin for someone who values originality, and the toning wouldn't be for everyone. It was graded "Superb Gem Brilliant Uncirculated" by Stack's in the 2001 catalog; later PCGS MS67. The coin appeared on the front cover of that catalog.
The Eliasberg coin has attractive light original toning that would still be acceptable (or at least inoffensive) to those who don't like toning. I wouldn't call the True View pics oversaturated, but rather a function of lighting conditions. If you study the coin, you will see that all of the toning shown in the True View is actually there; but at first impression, the pics have more of a rich bronze appearance, while the coin has more of a pale gold appearance. It was graded MS 65/67 in the 1997 Bowers & Merena catalog (i.e. 65 obverse, 67 reverse), and appeared on the front & back covers of that catalog.
The Norweb coin is what it is, an altered former masterpiece, although still technically a marvel with clean surfaces. In the November 1988 Norweb (Part III) catalog by Bowers & Merena, it was described as: "MS-65 or finer. A superb gem coin .... The surfaces maintain nearly full original mint brilliance, overlaid with delicate light brownish gold toning. The striking is excellent, the aesthetic appeal superb ...." The coin is color plated in the catalog, and shows a typical overlay of original light toning, not unlike the Eliasberg coin. Sadly, the coin had already been dipped before I first saw it in the PCGS MS67 holder some time ago, when it had a somewhat milky white appearance, with no trace of gold or russet toning. And now it has been "conserved" again, presumably to brighten it up and remove the milky overlay that resulted from the earlier dip. The coin is shown with full-page black & white images of both obverse and reverse in the Norweb III catalog, and you can clearly see the presence of the original toning, now removed. The black spot that appears on the cheek in the latest photos does NOT appear in any earlier photos, and I do not remember it on the coin when it was in the PCGS holder. It must be a speck of dust on the holder, or debris trapped inside; but it is not a spot on the coin as far as I know.
While we're at it, fourth place on the Census likely goes to the Amon Carter coin (Stack's 1984); earlier from B. Max Mehl's Golden Jubilee Sale (1950). That coin is currently graded PCGS MS65, and is shown in the 1984 catalog as having light peripheral gold and russet toning. I have not seen it for quite some time, so I don't know whether it remains in the original condition.
RWB, it was speculated by Q.D.B. that the Norwerb and Eliasberg coins were among those set aside for the annual Assay Commission trial. The complete absence of marks in the fields makes it unlikely that the coins were dropped into a Mint hopper. The Vermeule coin was speculated to have been obtained from the San Francisco Mint by Cornelius C. Vermeule I at the time of issue. The Norweb and Eliasberg coins were collected on the east coast, shortly after issue, making it quite possible that they were in the Pyx Box, the special padlocked wooden chest which was used to store coins set aside from Mint production, for presentation to the Assay Commission for its annual trial. (Historically, this was to determine that the gold and silver content in coinage was in accordance with specifications, and that there was no cheating going on !!) The Pyx Box coins not destroyed by the Assay Commission in testing may have found their way to local Phildelphia dealers (as did many Mint products in those days). In the case of the Eliasberg coin, dealer J. Corvin Randall sold a group of six Morgans to the elder Clapp, comprising the three branch mint coins of 1892, plus those of 1893. Perhaps they came from the Assay Commission, or were special presentation pieces (which would explain, for example, the extraordinary quality of the Eliasberg '93-CC and '93-O, which were virtually full proofs).
Perhaps they came from the Assay Commission, or were special presentation pieces (which would explain, for example, the extraordinary quality of the Eliasberg '93-CC and '93-O, which were virtually full proofs).
FWIW, I had the Eliasberg 93-O for a while and it was not "virtually full proof". Both TPGs graded it PL, not DMPL, and the strike was less than 100%. Still a great coin, of course.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< is a lifelong collector of Morgan Dollars who is rapidly accumulating a world-class set >>
I agree wholeheartedly. One of the very few exceptions I can think of is Tradedollarnut on his seated dollars where he has said that impeccable timing contributed significantly. And it was fortunate that a limited number of strong hands seemed to have held the majority of the finest known MS seated dollars....and then making them available to the market in a relatively short period.
The ANR photo of the Vermeulle coin does do the coin a disservice. I recall the coin having a much more autumny set of colors (greens, russet, etc) rather than the mottled silvery look ANR expressed. The eye appeal of the piece was nothing less than above average imo. Then again, I prefer average toning over dipped any day.
<< <i>is a lifelong collector of Morgan Dollars who is rapidly accumulating a world-class set >>
I always cringe when I hear of someone "rapidly" accumulating a world class set. >>
I agree ... and this is often a recipe for getting deeply buried by an aggressive dealer. However, in this case, if the collector was already "a lifelong collector of Morgan dollars," presumably he/she already knows enough to avoid becoming a fish on the hook. Perhaps the collector suddenly came into a large sum of money, and can now pursue collecting goals that were not possible before? That would account for the switch from "lifelong collector" to "rapidly accumulating a world-class set."
Comments
Where was this new data found? How does this affect the price of the coin?
One of one suprised it didn't fetch more.
Scott
Edit: never mind someone already mentioned this .
I spent the most time looking at the 1893-s dollar and was just floored by it. It has the cleanest surfaces of any MS68 or MS67 I've ever looked at, including 80-s and 81-s Morgans. I graded the coin superb MS67 and figured it would sell for around $500K. It was a lock 67 in my mind with great eye appeal and luster. I'd never seen a common date MS67 Morgan this clean or flawless. In the 10 minutes I spent looking for marks I didn't find any that counted. My description was "wow, superb 67! color! luster! wow." Perfect cheek, eagle's breast, etc. Simply incredible. There couldn't be a finer one. The coin sold for $360K + juice or $414K. What a rip. As soon as the auction ended I wished I had gotten members of my family together to buy the coin. But $400K doesn't grow on trees. At that time the CDN bids were $350K for 66 and $550K for MS67. I concluded that several buyers got together and kept the price down a bit. The market did not stink enough imo in November 2001 for this to bring this amount. But then again, this was my first major auction in years and I was somewhat bullish on coins.
With all the hoopla over the coin today at $1MILL plus (ie a once in a lifetime opportunity), I have just have to ask why this wasn't purchased by Legend or other major dollar dealer when the price was incredibly right....and also a "once" in a lifetime opportinity...though only a 7 year lifetime earlier Even a non-Morgan collector like myself (ie a proverbial 5th grader) knew this coin was a bargain. And like Sunnywood, I loved the look of the coin. I also felt that an MS68 grade would not be unfair. There had to be others there as well who felt the same.
roadrunner
We quickly lose our price perspective in a bubble, which is where we are now with respect to high end coins. Six- and seven-figure prices have become so routine. The asset bubble is just showing signs of deflating or bursting in the art and antiques markets; it is only a matter of time before it hits the coin market, where it is quite overdue. I remember the first six-figure auction coins ... now six figures is routine and irrelevant. This cannot continue unabated when $20 trillion in equities, and countless more trillions in real estate and fixed income have been erased worldwide.
That having been said, in any market, a coin like the Vermeule '93-S will always be at the top of the mountain, even if the mountain is smaller.
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
roadrunner
what i find funny is the steaming pile of hypocrisy with these coins. Over the years, if anyone awards more gift grades based on white (dipped) coins, it's PCGS. The fact that the Norweb left their grasp and had this performed, has them butt hurt? funny.......
doogy, you are right. PCGS has favored dipped white coins, although perhaps not as much as NGC has rewarded conservation by upgrading coins that have been NCS'd. At least PCGS isn't running a dipping mill like NCS. However, once PCGS has confirmation that the coin has been removed from their slab, they have every right to remove it from the pop reports. And indeed, I just confirmed that the pop in 67 has been reduced from 2 to 1.
I have an 1884-S PCGS MS62 (not the one I posted in the "Don't judge a coin by its image" thread.) The coin is so undergraded that it's not funny. David Akers grades it a probable 64. PCGS left it at 62, even with Presidential review, with the comment that, "The toning is a little negative." (The coin is not dark, and it is still flashy, so I don't get it.) I actually have the coin back at PCGS again now ... if I dipped it, I'm sure it would go straight into a 63 holder no questions asked. But of course i won't do that.
broadstruck, they're in the other thread, but here are copies: (Vermeule PCGS MS67, Eliasberg PCGS MS65, Norweb NGC MS67). I don't have good images for the Vermeule coin. It is nicer than these images suggest, but it is definitely most attractive in the eyes of those who appreciate originality.
Edited to add: here is the original image of the Vermeule coin from the 2001 auction, downloaded from Stack's website at the time:
You can read more about this coin when it was offered by ANR here (but did not sell):
1893-S Morgan offered by Stack's in the Richard Jewell auction, 2003
This is where I got the mistaken $575K figure from - it was the starting bid at this sale. When I saw that, I planned to bid; but when I got to the auction, I found out that it was reserved at $800K (would have been $920K with the juice), which was more than I was willing to pay at the time.
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
Copy and paste this URL into your address bar.
Then change the '*' to an 'a'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTrnLDNF*gQ
Are any of the top specimens form the 2nd reverse die (discovered by John Dannreuther about 10 yrs ago)?
My own gut reaction based solely on these pics: Norweb piece bores me, looks like it may have been dipped, and I *HATE* the black spot on the cheek... easily the worst of the three. Vermeule piece looks interesting, but the images really are subpar. The top pics of the coin make it seem like the coin was messed with. To me the Eliasberg is the nicest of the 3... drop-dead gorgeous, and I absolutely love the mark-free fields. I'm a bit wary of how the color really looks though, as TrueView pics oversaturate color.
Considering that the Eliasberg piece would probably sell at a considerable discount from the other two, I'd take it in a heartbeat... but who am I foolin', any of these coins are several orders of magnitude more expensive than any coin I've ever bought.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
The Eliasberg coin has attractive light original toning that would still be acceptable (or at least inoffensive) to those who don't like toning. I wouldn't call the True View pics oversaturated, but rather a function of lighting conditions. If you study the coin, you will see that all of the toning shown in the True View is actually there; but at first impression, the pics have more of a rich bronze appearance, while the coin has more of a pale gold appearance. It was graded MS 65/67 in the 1997 Bowers & Merena catalog (i.e. 65 obverse, 67 reverse), and appeared on the front & back covers of that catalog.
The Norweb coin is what it is, an altered former masterpiece, although still technically a marvel with clean surfaces. In the November 1988 Norweb (Part III) catalog by Bowers & Merena, it was described as: "MS-65 or finer. A superb gem coin .... The surfaces maintain nearly full original mint brilliance, overlaid with delicate light brownish gold toning. The striking is excellent, the aesthetic appeal superb ...." The coin is color plated in the catalog, and shows a typical overlay of original light toning, not unlike the Eliasberg coin. Sadly, the coin had already been dipped before I first saw it in the PCGS MS67 holder some time ago, when it had a somewhat milky white appearance, with no trace of gold or russet toning. And now it has been "conserved" again, presumably to brighten it up and remove the milky overlay that resulted from the earlier dip. The coin is shown with full-page black & white images of both obverse and reverse in the Norweb III catalog, and you can clearly see the presence of the original toning, now removed. The black spot that appears on the cheek in the latest photos does NOT appear in any earlier photos, and I do not remember it on the coin when it was in the PCGS holder. It must be a speck of dust on the holder, or debris trapped inside; but it is not a spot on the coin as far as I know.
While we're at it, fourth place on the Census likely goes to the Amon Carter coin (Stack's 1984); earlier from B. Max Mehl's Golden Jubilee Sale (1950). That coin is currently graded PCGS MS65, and is shown in the 1984 catalog as having light peripheral gold and russet toning. I have not seen it for quite some time, so I don't know whether it remains in the original condition.
RWB, it was speculated by Q.D.B. that the Norwerb and Eliasberg coins were among those set aside for the annual Assay Commission trial. The complete absence of marks in the fields makes it unlikely that the coins were dropped into a Mint hopper. The Vermeule coin was speculated to have been obtained from the San Francisco Mint by Cornelius C. Vermeule I at the time of issue. The Norweb and Eliasberg coins were collected on the east coast, shortly after issue, making it quite possible that they were in the Pyx Box, the special padlocked wooden chest which was used to store coins set aside from Mint production, for presentation to the Assay Commission for its annual trial. (Historically, this was to determine that the gold and silver content in coinage was in accordance with specifications, and that there was no cheating going on !!) The Pyx Box coins not destroyed by the Assay Commission in testing may have found their way to local Phildelphia dealers (as did many Mint products in those days). In the case of the Eliasberg coin, dealer J. Corvin Randall sold a group of six Morgans to the elder Clapp, comprising the three branch mint coins of 1892, plus those of 1893. Perhaps they came from the Assay Commission, or were special presentation pieces (which would explain, for example, the extraordinary quality of the Eliasberg '93-CC and '93-O, which were virtually full proofs).
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
FWIW, I had the Eliasberg 93-O for a while and it was not "virtually full proof". Both TPGs graded it PL, not DMPL, and the strike was less than 100%. Still a great coin, of course.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>is a lifelong collector of Morgan Dollars who is rapidly accumulating a world-class set >>
I always cringe when I hear of someone "rapidly" accumulating a world class set.
I am sure that the person is astute but rapid usually equates to less than stellar in my mind. There are exceptions of course.
siliconvalleycoins.com
I agree wholeheartedly. One of the very few exceptions I can think of is Tradedollarnut on his seated dollars where he has said that impeccable timing contributed significantly. And it was fortunate that a limited number of strong hands seemed to have held the majority of the finest known MS seated dollars....and then making them available to the market in a relatively short period.
The ANR photo of the Vermeulle coin does do the coin a disservice. I recall the coin having a much more autumny set of colors (greens, russet, etc) rather than the mottled silvery look ANR expressed. The eye appeal of the piece was nothing less than above average imo. Then again, I prefer average toning over dipped any day.
roadrunner
<< <i>
<< <i>is a lifelong collector of Morgan Dollars who is rapidly accumulating a world-class set >>
I always cringe when I hear of someone "rapidly" accumulating a world class set. >>
I agree ... and this is often a recipe for getting deeply buried by an aggressive dealer. However, in this case, if the collector was already "a lifelong collector of Morgan dollars," presumably he/she already knows enough to avoid becoming a fish on the hook. Perhaps the collector suddenly came into a large sum of money, and can now pursue collecting goals that were not possible before? That would account for the switch from "lifelong collector" to "rapidly accumulating a world-class set."
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
siliconvalleycoins.com