eBay "lost item" claim. Need some advise - ** UPDATE 10/22 - PayPal dispute closed - 10/2
jessewvu
Posts: 5,065 ✭✭✭✭✭
I had a buyer purchase a First Spouse gold coin from me and another coin, totaling about $800. I specifically remember packaging the box and know that the coins were put in the box. The buyer sent me an email stating that I forgot to put the coins in the box. I had a question about the shipping on this package and when I shipped it, I asked to speak with the Post Master who rang me up. She verified the weight and this buyer is stating it was missing a lot of things.
So, over several emails, I asked him several questions like was the box tampered with (I pack all my boxes so if they are tampered with, it is almost 100% identifiable). I also asked him exactly what was in the box. He refused to answer any of my questions and the next response I got was to the effect of "do I need to get paypal and eBay involved". So I call him and he will not call me back.
I guess my problem is I am 100% sure the coins were in the box and I think they were in the box when they were delivered. I did have insurance but that is beside the point Should I just give him his money back and be done with it? Should I file a police report and have him provide me the shipping box back to try to determine if the box was opened and resealed? I am a little skeptical because he will not answer any of my reasonable questions.
Another odd point was I gave him some free stuff and accepted an offer on a third item for about half of what I had it listed at because he made a large purchase and I was Ok with it. He said he knew “exactly what type of feedback to give me” because I “cared so much”. It just all sounds fishy to me. If I was the buyer, I would be all over the seller giving him/her as much information as they needed, not hiding behind emails making threats. He has 100% feedback and a decent amount of it so I could be totally wrong about this, i just wish he could help me out a little.
Any ideas?
edited for completness
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Update - 10/22
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Well, my local police department would not allow me to file a police report and the USPS said they would not grant me an insurance claim because he signed for the package. I told the buyer to make a police report (which he did not and apparently will not) and to file a PayPal claim because it was my only legal way to have this documented. So, he filed the claim last week and PayPal took out the funds from my account, which left it negative. Today, I see that the dispute was closed and the money was RETURNED to my account.
Apparently the buyer did not respond to the PayPal request for information or they just decided to not grant his dispute claim. I am guessing that my detailed account of the situation on file and the facts at hand regarding my police report inquires, the Postmaster and Postal Inspector conversations, and the signature confirmation with insurance helped. I was surprised that PayPal sided in my favor even though I knew I was in the right.
So, to all the people out there getting insurance, PayPal doesn't give diddly squat about the signature that comes with that. To be covered, YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR SIGNATURE CONFIRMATION to be covered for items over $250. I am frequently asked by the postal workers why I pay for insurance and signature confirmation because when you buy insurance over $50, a signature is required. It's because PayPal requires the signature to be visible online, and to my knowledge, that is the only sure-fire way to prove it was signed for, when you buy signature confirmation.
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Update - 10/29
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I just checked my paypal account and noticed it is negative again. This guy filed another dispute. I am not sure what he is saying now.
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Update - 1/30/2009
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Well, it's been a long time but I think I finally got somewhere with PayPal. Short story is as follows:
Buyer stated that he shipped the coins back to me in early November, which he did not. I got the post master and postal inspector at my post office to weigh the package prior to me taking possession of it and then both watched as I opened the package to verify the contents. When I saw he had returned an empty westward Journey Two-roll nickel set mint box, that contained two rolls of nickels when I shipped it and now did not, and some bubble wrap, I knew without a doubt he was a liar. Because he said he returned the coins, and I had solid proof he didn't, I was able to file a police report in my county. The District Attorney got involved and subpoenaed the PayPal statements this guy made related to my cases. That was about a month and a half ago. Well, today I called PayPal to get an update from them because I didn't think I should be calling the officer anymore wasting his time as he has more important things to do. I told the first rep that I needed to talk to their supervisor. After repeating my entire situation to the supervisor, the best she could do was escalate the case which would to absolutely nothing for me because it was closed, had been appealed, appeal denied, and closed again. Then I demanded to TALK to someone in the Fraud and Investigation team, not wait for a call or an email. About 10 minutes on hold, a senior rep from the escalation team got on the phone. At first, I totally laid into her and started hashing out my situation again after she started to give me the same old run-around. After summarizing the issue with her over roughly 5 minutes of near breathless anger, I finished my rant. When I finally stopped, she came back with a little snooty response that if I had let her finish, I might be happy with the resolution. She said she (PayPal) was going to ISSUE A FULL REFUND FOR THE $815!!! HOLY COW. I was completely silent for about 10 seconds, which on the phone is a long time. I went on to say that I was really happy about that BUT I still wanted to pursue the legal issue with this jerk and wanted to make sure that by them issuing the refund, he was not going to get off. She stated that they would continue to work with my Police Dept.
For once, I am a little bit less angry with PayPal. I have literally spent about 4 hours on the phone with PayPal on this issue, made about 20 trips to the post office to speak with the Post Master and Postal Inspector about the issue and the status of the Insurance Claim (which was denied), 1 hour driving back and forth to the Police Barracks, and 1 Saturday afternoon with the detective. I am just glad that I got my money back and I will be even more ecstatic if/when this crook gets the hammer.
So, over several emails, I asked him several questions like was the box tampered with (I pack all my boxes so if they are tampered with, it is almost 100% identifiable). I also asked him exactly what was in the box. He refused to answer any of my questions and the next response I got was to the effect of "do I need to get paypal and eBay involved". So I call him and he will not call me back.
I guess my problem is I am 100% sure the coins were in the box and I think they were in the box when they were delivered. I did have insurance but that is beside the point Should I just give him his money back and be done with it? Should I file a police report and have him provide me the shipping box back to try to determine if the box was opened and resealed? I am a little skeptical because he will not answer any of my reasonable questions.
Another odd point was I gave him some free stuff and accepted an offer on a third item for about half of what I had it listed at because he made a large purchase and I was Ok with it. He said he knew “exactly what type of feedback to give me” because I “cared so much”. It just all sounds fishy to me. If I was the buyer, I would be all over the seller giving him/her as much information as they needed, not hiding behind emails making threats. He has 100% feedback and a decent amount of it so I could be totally wrong about this, i just wish he could help me out a little.
Any ideas?
edited for completness
**************************************************
Update - 10/22
**************************************************
Well, my local police department would not allow me to file a police report and the USPS said they would not grant me an insurance claim because he signed for the package. I told the buyer to make a police report (which he did not and apparently will not) and to file a PayPal claim because it was my only legal way to have this documented. So, he filed the claim last week and PayPal took out the funds from my account, which left it negative. Today, I see that the dispute was closed and the money was RETURNED to my account.
Apparently the buyer did not respond to the PayPal request for information or they just decided to not grant his dispute claim. I am guessing that my detailed account of the situation on file and the facts at hand regarding my police report inquires, the Postmaster and Postal Inspector conversations, and the signature confirmation with insurance helped. I was surprised that PayPal sided in my favor even though I knew I was in the right.So, to all the people out there getting insurance, PayPal doesn't give diddly squat about the signature that comes with that. To be covered, YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR SIGNATURE CONFIRMATION to be covered for items over $250. I am frequently asked by the postal workers why I pay for insurance and signature confirmation because when you buy insurance over $50, a signature is required. It's because PayPal requires the signature to be visible online, and to my knowledge, that is the only sure-fire way to prove it was signed for, when you buy signature confirmation.
**************************************************
Update - 10/29
**************************************************
I just checked my paypal account and noticed it is negative again. This guy filed another dispute. I am not sure what he is saying now.
**************************************************
Update - 1/30/2009
**************************************************
Well, it's been a long time but I think I finally got somewhere with PayPal. Short story is as follows:
Buyer stated that he shipped the coins back to me in early November, which he did not. I got the post master and postal inspector at my post office to weigh the package prior to me taking possession of it and then both watched as I opened the package to verify the contents. When I saw he had returned an empty westward Journey Two-roll nickel set mint box, that contained two rolls of nickels when I shipped it and now did not, and some bubble wrap, I knew without a doubt he was a liar. Because he said he returned the coins, and I had solid proof he didn't, I was able to file a police report in my county. The District Attorney got involved and subpoenaed the PayPal statements this guy made related to my cases. That was about a month and a half ago. Well, today I called PayPal to get an update from them because I didn't think I should be calling the officer anymore wasting his time as he has more important things to do. I told the first rep that I needed to talk to their supervisor. After repeating my entire situation to the supervisor, the best she could do was escalate the case which would to absolutely nothing for me because it was closed, had been appealed, appeal denied, and closed again. Then I demanded to TALK to someone in the Fraud and Investigation team, not wait for a call or an email. About 10 minutes on hold, a senior rep from the escalation team got on the phone. At first, I totally laid into her and started hashing out my situation again after she started to give me the same old run-around. After summarizing the issue with her over roughly 5 minutes of near breathless anger, I finished my rant. When I finally stopped, she came back with a little snooty response that if I had let her finish, I might be happy with the resolution. She said she (PayPal) was going to ISSUE A FULL REFUND FOR THE $815!!! HOLY COW. I was completely silent for about 10 seconds, which on the phone is a long time. I went on to say that I was really happy about that BUT I still wanted to pursue the legal issue with this jerk and wanted to make sure that by them issuing the refund, he was not going to get off. She stated that they would continue to work with my Police Dept.
For once, I am a little bit less angry with PayPal. I have literally spent about 4 hours on the phone with PayPal on this issue, made about 20 trips to the post office to speak with the Post Master and Postal Inspector about the issue and the status of the Insurance Claim (which was denied), 1 hour driving back and forth to the Police Barracks, and 1 Saturday afternoon with the detective. I am just glad that I got my money back and I will be even more ecstatic if/when this crook gets the hammer.
0
Comments
<< <i>Should I file a police report and have him provide me the shipping box back to try to determine if the box was opened and resealed? >>
This is what I would do.
If the coins have been stolen, file a police report.
I've never had to do this before, but I suspect that the police and/or the postmaster at the point of delivery need to be involved.
Communicate this transparently to the buyer even if the buyer does not communicate much to you.
I would imagine that the postmaster on the delivery side will want to examine the package. Let the buyer know this, then get those wheels in motion.
Unless you spouse coin is slabbed with a serial number, it might be hard to scan eBay for resale of these items. Some eBayers have separate seller/buyer accounts, so just scanning a single account will not necessarily catch these items on the resale. Scanning eBay for these items in the coming six months or so is a good idea.
If you understand what is coming, then you can duck. If not, then you get sucker-punched. - Martin Armstrong
The last time (and first) this happened, a guy called Seattle Silvers purchased two coins and said the box was opened when he got it. I immediatly sent him two new coins because he was up front and answered all my questions. That package was not insured either.
<< <i>
Unless you spouse coin is slabbed with a serial number, it might be hard to scan eBay for resale of these items. Some eBayers have separate seller/buyer accounts, so just scanning a single account will not necessarily catch these items on the resale. Scanning eBay for these items in the coming six months or so is a good idea. >>
First Spouse coin Cert #: 12515306
American Eagle coin Cert #: 11430446
Times like this would be great when you could post stolen slab numbers to PCGS/NGC and they could post that list so buyers could figure out if that they are buying is stolen...
This guy is...
(no, he is not a pad of butter)
Did you send this registered? If it was not registered, will the insurance pay?
I'd clear your PP account of funds, just so they can't freeze what they don't have should he file a dispute.
Then, as suggested, file a postal report. At this point, his options are:
-Admit he's lying
-Follow through with the PO, where getting caught lying is much worse
If you are sure the coins were packed, then from your vantage point, the postal service is at fault if his claim is correct. If it's not, he, not you, is the one who's going to get in trouble for the claim getting falsely filed.
Jeremy
I've had the same thing happen on ebay BTW.
The solution is to have two people verify the contents and sign/print/date their names to the document. In serious legal cases, it should be notarized.
I skip the notary. Instead, I insert a packing slip printed from the ebay auction page. I've added wording stating that to ensure the correct item is enclosed in the package, and to avoid fraud and the 'empty package problem' which is frequent on ebay, two individuals have signed this document stating that the item is in the box prior to shipping. Thanks for your business and helping me keep ebay a safe place to buy coins.
I think it's just enough deterrant to make a person think twice about fraud. I started this when shipping $2,000 saints. I learned it from my attorney.
Some attorneys are cheesy enough to say they got an empty envelope from other attorneys!!! Jeeze.
<< <i>Make sure you enter those cert numbers in your registry so that if someone tries to enter them again, at least you will be notified. >>
Very good idea.
Also i agree, just file the post office insurance claim and when or if he cooperates with them then reimburse him.
Joe
If he won't cooperate with you maybe he will cooperate with the PO if he wants to get reimbursed.
Keep the money, don't refund, file a claim, and have the insurance payoff sent to the buyer. He must provide the package so the PO can see if it was damaged or tampered with. That way if he doesn't cooperate he doesn't get the payoff and you lose nothing.
Don't let the threat of negative feedback intimidate you, if you get a neg it's not the end of the world.
If you do clear your PP of funds as a preemptive measure beter make sure you clear your bank account too, if it's linked, or they will snatch the $$ from your bank.
Hope this helps.
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Actually, PP cannot access your bank account without your EXPLICIT permission.
PP can - and does - reverse ACH transfers that are "in progress."
PP also holds incoming sales-revenues, until the negative-balance is replenished.
If a claim is found against an account holder, PP requests that the holder deposit
funds to cover the balance due.
Failure to pay a PP bill results in PP using their collection agency to attempt to
recover the money claimed due.
Personally I think the guys trying to get over on ya. But someone could have broken into your package and stole the coins, but there should be some evidence of this on the package you sent. Which should have been a red flag for the buyer when he received the package.
There is one other thing that you might check. If you shipped via USPS, you should have a receipt with the weight of the package with the coins. You should ask your buyer what the weight of the package and its contents. If it matches, there were no coins. If it doesn't match, then they were removed. If you shipped and have the weight, that would be known only to you. Just another thing to check...
Good luck on this.
I just got home from a little vacation and the coins are not here (which is what I expected). I vividly remember packaging this box because it was the first Jackson's liberty first spouse coin I had sold and I was making sure the box was correct. I described to the buyer exactly where I placed each item in the box and how it was all packaged.
As for mixing up the contents, he stated he got a few things I had shipped in the box. I double check every coin I ship for the proper cert number and have never made a mistake.
As for the weight, I have the receipt I printed online with the weight that exactly matches the weight on the receipt from the Post Office since I had to have it weighed to get insurance. And I am glad I had the Post Master wait on me that day, it is the only time I have ever requested specifically to talk to the Post Master during a checkout, that is kind of ironic. I will see if the buyer can weight the contents of the box when he ships the box back to me.
I will probably just file a police report and a postal claim. I am 100% sure I packaged the coins in the box, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind, none. I got insurance for this very reason so if he wants to peruse it if he is lying, it's on him and I'll oblige. It would be great if we find one or both of the coins for sale somewhere.
As stated by another member, maybe I should stop selling. I packed the hell out of that box and specifically remember packing it. There is no way I put the coins in someone else's box or forgot to put them in all together. He stated that the box was sealed when he got it and danced around answering any of my questions for days. He told me his cell phone could only receive calls, not make calls at one point?
Thanks for letting me rant Collectors Universe Message Boards! I'll go away soon.
<< <i>Well, I went to the post office today to see about filing a claim. They stated that since the package was signed for by the buyer, I am out of luck. The postal worker stated that they can not confirm the contents and insurance is mainly for lost and damaged products, not for missing items. I will have the buyer file a PayPal dispute and I guess let PayPal side with the buyer and assume that I didn't put the coins in the box which I am 100% sure I did. I figure at least there will be a record of him filing a claim which PayPal would not let me initiate. I wonder if it would help if I went over to the police station and took a polygraph test.
As stated by another member, maybe I should stop selling. I packed the hell out of that box and specifically remember packing it. There is no way I put the coins in someone else's box or forgot to put them in all together. He stated that the box was sealed when he got it and danced around answering any of my questions for days. He told me his cell phone could only receive calls, not make calls at one point?
Thanks for letting me rant Collectors Universe Message Boards! I'll go away soon. >>
Other people have said it - call the local police. The guy may have some active warrants, may be known to them, may have priors. Let him know you're doing it first and he may see the light.
edit: BTW, in all communication with ebay, paypal, USPS, etc don't say "I think i put the coins in the box". Say, "of course I put the coins in the box and I packaged it very well."
Also look at your receipt and get the same box or package you ship the coins in, go to the post office and have them weigh the empty box for you. Then check the weight of the empty box compared to the weight stated on your receipt and there is any differents file a insurance claim with your post master and then wipe out your pp acct. You and your buyer should get paid either way. thanks.
Failing to respond to claims that he made, I think he was trying pull a fast one, but didn't want to break any major laws by putting a lot in writting.
On the signature confirmation topic, when sending registered packages I buy the $1 return receipt (electronic) instead of the $2+ signature confirmation. They both result in a pdf file from the post office that shows electronic scan of the receiver's signature, printed name and printed address. The return receipt (electronic) works for paypal because with the tracking number they can get it directly off the postal website themselves. Paypal will only accept electronic signature proof that they can access themselves, they will not accept an attachment or file from you in an email. I have spoken with paypal over this issue.
If you understand what is coming, then you can duck. If not, then you get sucker-punched. - Martin Armstrong
Dear jessewvu,
well this is just freakin great you won and im out $816.00 freakin dollars. freakin paypal asks if i recieved the package and i say yes because i did and how else would i know if nothing was missing unless i open your package. i might as well just say freak it but i am going to appeal this whole freakin mess. i already bought another coin because the first one was missing.
Again, it seems fishy. If it were me, as a buyer, I wouldn't even be close to saying "freak it", I would be saying I am going to sue your arse, and have filed a police report and pounded my fist at anyone that would listen. There is so much this guy should be doing that he isn't.
I will still petition the USPS and file a claim on his behalf. If he said he didn't receive it, I (as an unbiased seller) should file a claim.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I have on occasion turned on my QuickCam when I'm packaging big ticket items, it is one way of having video proof of what went in the package. The camera picks up the whole process of packing, sealing and labeling the package. I do the same when opening big ticket items also. The video takes up very little room and I dump the files every few months.
It's a few extra steps but it may save me some $$ in the future.
Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
Now, if I had bought something for that value, and didn't receive it, I certainly would be fighting to get it, or my money back. Yes, I would have been more responsive but it also would depend on how I was treated and replied to.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
Someone mentioned that I might have been giving this guy the run around. I would be more than happy to post my emails to him, I saved every one of them. I think they were very honest, respectfull, considerate, and helpfull. I never once blew this guy off or took the tough luck route.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
<< <i>Paypal should be made aware that you originally offered to present an insurance claim to the U.S.P.S. on behalf of the buyer, but the buyer refused to sign the PS form, which if signed would make that a willful act of fraud if the Post Office proves that the item was delivered. >>
I had a buyer last year who refused to cooperate in filing an insurance claim for a lost item. PayPal said he didn't have to, and took money from me to give back to him.
If the buyer wins, then there is no stopping ANYONE from scamming others.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
I am going to go to the police department tomorrow and file a police report. If they will not let me, I am probably going to make them sign a letter stating that they will not allow me to file the police report.
The buyer had a lot of positive feedback, over 500 and it's 100%. I REALLY want to believe this guy and I think I am doing everything I can to work through this. Some would say I should just give him his money back until it gets cleared up but I did put the coins in the box when it was shipped and I did buy full insurance for the package. I feel as if I did everything I possibly could to avoid this, if it really is a USPS employee that stole it.
But when it’s all said and done, I still really feel bad for this guy if he is 100% right on this and that the coins were taken out of the box by a USPS rep.
On a upbeat side note, I am going metal detecting tomorrow with a few local guys who should be able to teach me a lot about the hobby and I might even find something.
<< <i>Well, I did a little Q/A with a PayPal rep today. The buyer stated that he did not get the package in the first dispute which was dismissed because I had shipped the package with signature confirmation through Paypal. The second dispute, he stated the box was empty (not as described). I specifically asked him what WAS in the box because he said he got everything except the two coins. I asked him to tell me exactly what was in the box because I gave him some free stuff that he wouldn't know was in there unless he actually saw it. He said everything was in the box, even the free stuff, just not the two coins. I asked him to send me everything back that he did receive (and to keep the free stuff) so I could check the box myself for tampering (at my expense) and start with filing the USPS insurance claim. He shipped back the box but it was empty.
I am going to go to the police department tomorrow and file a police report. If they will not let me, I am probably going to make them sign a letter stating that they will not allow me to file the police report.
The buyer had a lot of positive feedback, over 500 and it's 100%. I REALLY want to believe this guy and I think I am doing everything I can to work through this. Some would say I should just give him his money back until it gets cleared up but I did put the coins in the box when it was shipped and I did buy full insurance for the package. I feel as if I did everything I possibly could to avoid this, if it really is a USPS employee that stole it.
But when it’s all said and done, I still really feel bad for this guy if he is 100% right on this and that the coins were taken out of the box by a USPS rep.
On a upbeat side note, I am going metal detecting tomorrow with a few local guys who should be able to teach me a lot about the hobby and I might even find something. >>
What are the odds of a knowledgeable USPS employeee accidentally opening the box and selectively removing the most valuable items?
Update - 1/30/2009
**************************************************
Well, it's been a long time but I think I finally got somewhere with PayPal. Short story is as follows:
Buyer stated that he shipped the coins back to me in early November, which he did not. I got the post master and postal inspector at my post office to weigh the package prior to me taking possession of it and then both watched as I opened the package to verify the contents. When I saw he had returned an empty westward Journey Two-roll nickel set mint box, that contained two rolls of nickels when I shipped it and now did not, and some bubble wrap, I knew without a doubt he was a liar. Because he said he returned the coins, and I had solid proof he didn't, I was able to file a police report in my county. The District Attorney got involved and subpoenaed the PayPal statements this guy made related to my cases. That was about a month and a half ago. Well, today I called PayPal to get an update from them because I didn't think I should be calling the officer anymore wasting his time as he has more important things to do. I told the first rep that I needed to talk to their supervisor. After repeating my entire situation to the supervisor, the best she could do was escalate the case which would to absolutely nothing for me because it was closed, had been appealed, appeal denied, and closed again. Then I demanded to TALK to someone in the Fraud and Investigation team, not wait for a call or an email. About 10 minutes on hold, a senior rep from the escalation team got on the phone. At first, I totally laid into her and started hashing out my situation again after she started to give me the same old run-around. After summarizing the issue with her over roughly 5 minutes of near breathless anger, I finished my rant. When I finally stopped, she came back with a little snooty response that if I had let her finish, I might be happy with the resolution. She said she (PayPal) was going to ISSUE A FULL REFUND FOR THE $815!!! HOLY COW. I was completely silent for about 10 seconds, which on the phone is a long time. I went on to say that I was really happy about that BUT I still wanted to pursue the legal issue with this jerk and wanted to make sure that by them issuing the refund, he was not going to get off. She stated that they would continue to work with my Police Dept.
For once, I am a little bit less angry with PayPal. I have literally spent about 4 hours on the phone with PayPal on this issue, made about 20 trips to the post office to speak with the Post Master and Postal Inspector about the issue and the status of the Insurance Claim (which was denied), 1 hour driving back and forth to the Police Barracks, and 1 Saturday afternoon with the detective. I am just glad that I got my money back and I will be even more ecstatic if/when this crook gets the hammer.