New images of a classic rarity ...

Sunnywood · October 24, 2008 1:36PM

Thanks to PCGS for these beautiful images of the Eliasberg 1893-S Morgan dollar. I sent the coin to PCGS in preparation for their display of The Sunnywood Collection of Toned Morgan Dollars at FUN, for imaging and to get the pedigree (Eliasberg-Stellar-Sunnywood) on the insert. I am thankful for these great images, and I wouldn't trust anyone else to handle or image this coin outside the holder !!! The coin has a truly flawless reverse, and virtually perfect obverse fields, which led Q. David Bowers to speculate that it was a piece reserved for the Assay Commission, and perhaps never saw the inside of a coin hopper. However, some minor ticks on the portrait have limited the grade (in PCGS's opinion) to MS65. As David Hall so wisely said, "Ownership adds a point," and so of course, I personally think it should be an MS66. By consent it is #3 in the condition census, behind the Norweb coin (graded MS67 by both PCGS and NGC), and the Cornelius C. Vermeule - Jack Lee specimen (also graded PCGS MS67). There are no coins graded 66 at either service, and I think this one would be a perfect fit for that 66 slot !!!

It is plated in "The 100 Greatest U.S. Coins" and on the cover of the Eliasberg auction catalog.

Best,
Sunnywood

ColonialCoinUnion · October 24, 2008 1:38PM

Wow.

Unknown · October 24, 2008 1:39PM

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jmj3esq · October 24, 2008 1:39PM

I will second that "Wow"!!!!

SkyMan · October 24, 2008 1:46PM

BEE-U-TIFUL '93-S, SW!

lasvegasteddy · October 24, 2008 1:46PM

huge pretty coin there

DMWJR · October 24, 2008 1:49PM

This is one of those cases where the grade on the holder means very little.

Coinosaurus · October 24, 2008 2:31PM

<< This is one of those cases where the grade on the holder means very little. >>

Yup. And whether it is a 61 or a 69, it will always be on the cover of the Eliasberg catalog.

DMWJR · October 24, 2008 2:50PM

<< 

<< This is one of those cases where the grade on the holder means very little. >>

Yup. And whether it is a 61 or a 69, it will always be on the cover of the Eliasberg catalog. >>

Perxactly! If I owned the coin, you could call it whatever you wanted to and it wouldn't bother me a bit!

GoldenEyeNumismatics · October 24, 2008 3:05PM

Dam. Thats nice.

micmt · October 24, 2008 3:53PM

yes seconds and thirds all the WOW's

lcoopie · October 24, 2008 9:23PM

I wonder what RickO will have to say about it

Thanks for sharing it with us, really.

Broadstruck · October 24, 2008 9:35PM

Nice looking Tru-View image!

dwssws · October 24, 2008 10:53PM

<< I sent the coin to PCGS in preparation for their display of The Sunnywood Collection of Toned Morgan Dollars at FUN >>

and I won't be able to go to FUN so I miss another chance to see Sunnywood's eye candy

pics of his collection are awesome and can only imagine what they look like in hand

Sunnywood · October 24, 2008 10:53PM

Thanks guys!! In hand, under normal lighting conditions, the obverse toning appears somewhat paler and more subtle than the image suggests. So maybe even RickO would like it LOL.

... "and I won't be able to go to FUN so I miss another chance to see Sunnywood's eye candy pics of his collection are awesome and can only imagine what they look like in hand"

dwssws - sorry you will miss this !!!! I was hoping you and all the other Board members who have sent PM's and posted comments about the set would get a chance to see it. The display will include about (160) toned Morgan dollars. Of course, many dates don't come with wild rainbow toning, so there's quite a bit of visual variety.

Nic · October 24, 2008 10:58PM

Beautiful coin! Bringing her back to Florida are you? Can't wait to see your set.

K

UtahCoin · October 24, 2008 11:09PM

Speechless.....

dwssws · October 24, 2008 11:09PM

"dwssws - sorry you will miss this !!!! I was hoping you and all the other Board members who have sent PM's and posted comments about the set would get a chance to see it. The display will include about (160) toned Morgan dollars. Of course, many dates don't come with wild rainbow toning, so there's quite a bit of visual variety. "

now I am even sadder! have always said your set might not be "rated" #1 but it is #1 are far as I am concerned!

let me see what I can do about making it

291fifth · October 24, 2008 11:10PM

Looks better than 65.

Do you have any idea who owned it before Eliasberg? Was it part of the collection he bought from Clapp?

TahoeDale · October 24, 2008 11:12PM

Doug,

Pcgs did a wonderful job on this treasure. Thanks for sharing.

I look forward to seeing all the other Morgans at FUN. and enjoying a night out dining in splendor.

BloodMan · October 24, 2008 11:33PM

That is an amazing coin.

RYK · October 24, 2008 11:35PM

Lovely coin and image (for a Morgan

).

Sunnywood · October 24, 2008 11:36PM

TahoeDale, it will be my pleasure to see you again and have dinner !! Especially on the momentous occasion of the auction of your amazing Barber halves - I can't wait to see Heritage's cataloguing of your wonderful set.

291fifth, this coin was acquired by J.M. Clapp from Philadelphia dealer J. Corvin Randall in March 1894. Bowers speculated that it was one of the pieces sent by the branch mints to Phildelphia for the annual Assay Commission meeting, which would have taken place early in 1894. Randall was known for obtaining such pieces, and also for obtaining hand-selected pieces directly from the Mints. Although the pedigree would normally be abbreviated as Clapp-Eliasberg-Stellar-Sunnywood, the formal pedigree is as follows:

ex J. Corvin Randall to J.M. Clapp (1894); to his son John H. Clapp (1906); to Louis E. Eliasberg, Sr. (as part of his 1942 purchase of the Clapp estate, brokered by the Stack brothers Morton and James B. Stack); to his son Richard A. Eliasberg upon his passing (1976); Bowers & Merena, The Louis E. Eliasberg, Sr. Collection (4/8/1997:2294); purchased at the auction by the Stellar Collection (1997); to Sunnywood (Jan. 2008).

Careful RYK, or I'll post another Morgan !!

RYK · October 24, 2008 11:40PM

<< TahoeDale, it will be my pleasure to see you again and have dinner !! Especially on the momentous occasion of the auction of your amazing Barber halves - I can't wait to see Heritage's cataloguing of your wonderful set.

291fifth, this coin was acquired by J.M. Clapp from Philadelphia dealer J. Corvin Randall in March 1894. Bowers speculated that it was one of the pieces sent by the branch mints to Phildelphia for the annual Assay Commission meeting, which would have taken place early in 1894. Randall was known for obtaining such pieces, and also for obtaining hand-selected pieces directly from the Mints. Although the pedigree would normally be abbreviated as Clapp-Eliasberg-Stellar-Sunnywood, the formal pedigree is as follows:

ex J. Corvin Randall to J.M. Clapp (1894); to his son John H. Clapp (1906); to Louis E. Eliasberg, Sr. (as part of his 1942 purchase of the Clapp estate, brokered by the Stack brothers Morton and James B. Stack); to his son Richard A. Eliasberg upon his passing (1976); Bowers & Merena, The Louis E. Eliasberg, Sr. Collection (4/8/1997:2294); purchased at the auction by the Stellar Collection (1997); to Sunnywood (Jan. 2008).

Careful RYK, or I'll post another Morgan !! >>

No, please don't!

I love the pedigree. The ownership chain is complete from the Mint to you. Extremely cool (even for a Morgan

).

anablep · October 25, 2008 12:00AM

Truly spectacular...

Thank you for sharing it with us...

ecichlid · October 25, 2008 12:07AM

AT for sure.

ecichlid · October 25, 2008 12:07AM

That was a joke.

erroid · October 25, 2008 12:16AM

I've never even owned a 93S; that is one stunning coin!

TwoSides2aCoin · October 25, 2008 12:27AM

Your comrades started this thread off like a typical eBay ad.

Wow, LQQK, RARE BEAUTY... And they got it right, too

19Lyds · October 25, 2008 12:39AM

I really like this coin and truely appreciate its rarity but I need to ask, why did you pedigree it as "Sunnywood" and not your name?

TorinoCobra71 · October 25, 2008 12:45AM

Sweet Morgan!

Sunnywood · October 25, 2008 12:52AM

There are many reasons why I prefer "Sunnywood" to my own name. A few of them are safety and security (especially for my family); anonymity and modesty (although obviously I'm posting here and displaying the coins publicly, so I guess that's only partially valid); and perhaps a sense that the coins are more important than I am. After all, they're a piece of history, while I am only their custodian. It seemed less brazenly materialistic to use "Sunnywood" (an old family term that derived from the name of an estate) rather than stamping my own moniker on everything that I own. I always strive for humility and modesty, even though I often fail miserably !!

Nic · October 25, 2008 12:58AM

I just noticed that you parted with your quarter set Doug. I'll bet that was tough to do. What a superb set!

K

Sunnywood · October 25, 2008 1:06AM

I hated selling the Barber quarters, but we are all subject to a dose of financial reality now and then. Still, it was a privilege to be able to collect them, and to have had the enjoyment of owning the completed set. And sometimes, it's not a bad thing to turn away from a multi-year obsession and focus on other things !! The buyer of the set (who wishes to remain completely anonymous) kept it largely intact, and replaced only a few of the coins with better ones that he already had. I didn't want to see the set broken up, after all the effort to put it together. On the other hand, a prominent auction creates a permanent record of a beautiful set, so I can certainly understand why TahoeDale, for example, would choose the auction route for his Barber halves. I would have loved a glossy auction catalog with color photos of all the quarters, but as i had them all imaged by PCGS, I do have a permanent record of the coins.

When I think of all the earlier sets that I have built and sold over the years, without any photographic record, that gives me much more regret !! And that is why I decided to allow the '93-S to be handled for imaging, even though prudence would seem to dictate that it be left alone and handled as little as possible.

Best,
Sunnywood

TONEDDOLLARS · October 25, 2008 1:15AM

Dougs set is #1 in my mind. It is a whole lot easier to put together a boring white set of high grade Morgans,
than to put together a set like his. Great eye appeal and high grade to boot. Doug has done a great job
of finding and buyiny the tougher coins with nice color, I know, I went head to head with him to many times.
We cost each other quite a few dollars at auctions.

Super job Doug, and I am so looking forward to seeing youand your collection at FUN.

And really, who gives a damm what ricko thinks anway, to each there own.

Sunnywood · October 25, 2008 1:34AM

Thanks TD, your "Toned Dollars" set was one of the primary inspirations for staring my own set !!! And while we may have competed for a few coins along the way, in the end I think you made up for that cost when you sold me some of your great coins

My primary set (link in my sigline) includes the following coins from the "Toned Dollars Collection" - 1880-O, 1881-O, 1885-S, 1892-O, 1894-S, 1899, 1902, 1921, 1921-S

In addition, more of his coins may be found in my duplicates set: 1888-S, 1890, and 1902-S

By the way, while I obviously think toned Morgans are way more challenging and more interesting than their "white" counterparts, I have to give a nod to the extraordinary set that is being auctioned by Heritage at FUN. This is an extremely high-end Morgan set. While most of the coins are essentially white, the quality still makes most of them really amazing. In addition, there are some original coins in the mix, such as the 1889-CC PCGS MS68 ex Eliasberg, the Eliasberg 1894-O, an 1894-S in 67, and an 1888-S in 67. Even if you don't prefer white Morgans, this set is worth a look.

Best,
Sunnywood

CoinJunkie · October 25, 2008 3:42AM

The word that comes to mind is "impeccable"!

cmerlo1 · October 25, 2008 3:48AM

I would love it even if it were a 1881-S.

ricko · October 25, 2008 3:51AM

Beautiful coin Sunnywood...thanks for sharing... Cheers, RickO

tradedollarnut · October 25, 2008 3:57AM

Sunnywood: that truly is a special coin and in fact is one of the few Morgan dollars that I would ever covet to own. You'll be happy to know that the Vermeule specimen of the date [perhaps the only specimen finer than yours] just sold for well in excess of $1M. You'll also be saddened to know that rumor has it that the Norweb specimen has undergone treatment at NCS, thus for all practical purposes elevating your specimen to #2.

Sunnywood · October 25, 2008 4:43AM

Thanks all ...

TDN, yes I was shocked about the Norweb coin. Technically it is the cleanest of the three in terms of strict surfaces. However I personally never liked it, because even in the PCGS MS67 holder previously, I thought it had a dipped milky or slightly filmy look. Evidently someone wrongly thought it would increase the value and marketability of the coin to conserve it, that is, to dip off that milky look. What were they thinking? You don't "conserve" a classic finest known pedigreed rarity !!! And you can't make a coin like that look better by dipping it more. The result was an NGC MS67 with a white widget appearance IMHO, which failed to invite bids at an April 2008 Heritage auction offering. Ref. Heritage, Central States Signature Sale, (4/17/08:2366). Perhaps one of these days, more people will realize that (at least at the high end) originality can be worth more than clean surfaces or a bright shiny appearance.

NGC has done 2 in 65, none in 66, and only the conserved Norweb coin in 67. PCGS has done 5 in 65, none in 66, and 2 in 67 (Norweb and Vermeule). The Eliasberg coin has always been ranked ahead of the other gems, for example as noted by Bowers when cataloguing the Vermeule coin in the 3/8/05 auction catalogue of the Richard Jewell Collection and other properties. (The Vermeule coin did not sell on that occasion, although I wanted it !!) So perhaps now we have:

1) The Vermeule-Jack Lee specimen (PCGS MS67)
2) The Clapp-Eliasberg specimen (PCGS MS65)
3) The Norweb-Bodway-PCGS Tour specimen (NGC MS67 after conservation; formerly PCGS MS67)

I guess I kinda like that re-ordering of things TDN !!!

The Amon Carter specimen, graded PCGS MS65, is probably in the fourth spot. Another nice coin, graded PCGS MS64 but IMHO better than that, appeared some time ago at a Bowers or ANR auction, and was purchased by Michael Casper for a New York City collection. That coin may have been the "missing" specimen catalogued as "finest known" by Wayne Miller in 1982, and listed in the Eliasberg catalog as item (3).

Yet another specimen was foolishly sent back to the U.S. Treasury Department for verification of its authenticity in the 1970's. Incredibly, they dipped the coin in acid to see if the mintmark would fall off (i.e. if it had been soldered on). They destroyed the entire coin in the process. The more these coins are handled, the more they disappear into oblivion. The Norweb coin is a perfect example; too much handling and messing around with it, and it loses its #1 status. At least NCS didn't dip it in acid like the Treasury Department !!!

Tracing pedigrees and exploring a condition census can be fun ...

Best,
Sunnywood

D · October 25, 2008 5:03AM

I see three definate things wrong with the coin.

It doesn't have a president on the obverse.
It's not MS70.
No 'First Strike' designation.

Sunnywood, I thought you had better taste...

.

-D

coinlieutenant · October 25, 2008 5:14AM

I agree that the grade is certainly secondary on this coin. It is clearly special in that it is a 93-S, it is from a famous pedigree, currently in the coolest set of Morgan Dollars I've seen, and that it is toned in a way that makes it acceptable for your set. If I remember, the Lee specimen is blast white right?

19Lyds · October 25, 2008 5:17AM

"I really like this coin and truely appreciate its rarity but I need to ask, why did you pedigree it as "Sunnywood" and not your name?"

<< There are many reasons why I prefer "Sunnywood" to my own name. A few of them are safety and security (especially for my family); anonymity and modesty (although obviously I'm posting here and displaying the coins publicly, so I guess that's only partially valid); and perhaps a sense that the coins are more important than I am. After all, they're a piece of history, while I am only their custodian. It seemed less brazenly materialistic to use "Sunnywood" (an old family term that derived from the name of an estate) rather than stamping my own moniker on everything that I own. I always strive for humility and modesty, even though I often fail miserably !!

>>

So the assumption here is that only those that know who Sunnywood actually is will be the ones to know the true pedigree of this coin or your set?

While I certainly respect your wishes for anonymity I just find it rather odd that a pedigreed set is named after a PCGS userid.

supergem · October 25, 2008 5:29AM

OMG!

THAT's what I call a SUPER GEM!!

When I read about the Vermuele coin trading hands, I saw it was listed as the finest known, and I thought "What about the Norweb coin? Wasn't that supposed to be the finest known and a former Assay coin?" Now to hear that it's been NCS'ed!!!! What were they thinking? Did they really think the Norweb specimen would be worth more if it made its way to being an NGC-MS68 after its NCS bath, versus an original PCGS-MS67. Surely an NCS'ed NGC-MS67 is nothing in comparison valuewise to the original Vermuele and Sunnywood coins.

tradedollarnut · October 25, 2008 5:47AM

<< OMG!

THAT's what I call a SUPER GEM!!

When I read about the Vermuele coin trading hands, I saw it was listed as the finest known, and I thought "What about the Norweb coin? Wasn't that supposed to be the finest known and a former Assay coin?" Now to hear that it's been NCS'ed!!!! What were they thinking? Did they really think the Norweb specimen would be worth more if it made its way to being an NGC-MS68 after its NCS bath, versus an original PCGS-MS67. Surely an NCS'ed NGC-MS67 is nothing in comparison valuewise to the original Vermuele and Sunnywood coins. >>

Absolutely true. Washed out white NCS coins are the equivalent of numismatic trash.

coinlieutenant · October 25, 2008 5:49AM

<< Absolutely true. Washed out white NCS coins are the equivalent of numismatic trash. >>

Numismatic "white" trash.

dizzyfoxx · October 25, 2008 6:16AM

<< Wow. >>

My thoughts exactly!

Sunnywood · October 25, 2008 6:30AM

coinlieutenant, the Vermeule-Lee specimen is an original, colorfully toned coin. For several years I tried to figure how to acquire that coin, but the timing was always wrong. I was too chicken to buy it raw at the Vermeule sale in 2001. There were several subsequent opportunities to buy the coin, but they came up at times when I didn't have the cash available. Later, when I had the means to buy the coin, the price had gone up another 40%, and I just couldn't pull the trigger. When the Eliasberg coin came along, it took me roughly 0.2 seconds to pull the trigger. But that was only possible in the context of having chased the Vermeule coin for so long. Here are some images of the Vermeule-Lee coin:

Lee, the pedigreed set is not named after a user id !! My family's coin collection has been called "The Sunnywood Collection" for more than 40 years. The correct pedigree is "The Sunnywood Collection," an entity which owns the coin. My PCGS user ID was named after the collection, not the other way around. (My family uses the name "Sunnywood" for many purposes.) Many collectors choose to use a collection name rather than a personal name. For example, the collector who bought this '93-S dollar at the Eliasberg sale also bought many other coins there. Quite a few of the coins in "The 100 Greatest U.S. Coins" belong(ed) to him. However, he uses "The Stellar Collection," and not his personal name. Former Houston Oilers linebacker Gregg Bingham (monsterman on these Boards) has been an avid and astute collector for many many years. His Morgans were widely known as "The NFL Set." F.C.C. Boyd's collection was dubbed "The World's Greatest Collection" when it was auctioned off many decades ago; as a pedigree it is still referred to as "WGC." There is nothing new about substituting a collection name for a personal name; it is just a personal preference.

However, if you really want to know more, I think there will be a profile coming up at some point in PCGS's monthly magazine.

Unknown · October 25, 2008 6:43AM

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Sunnywood · October 25, 2008 6:58AM

RealOne, sure you can quote me; I'd be honored.

Here are the best images I could come up with for the conserved Norweb coin, for comparison ...

New images of a classic rarity ...

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