Ethics question
Greeniejr
Posts: 1,321 ✭✭✭
As a PCGS/NGC member dealer, all sorts of people come in and ask about us submitting coins from them. There are instances where the person will be spending more money on sending the coin that the fees will be more than the coin is worth (even best case scenario.) A customer came in last week with a common modern commem and a couple clearly cleaned classic commems (Roanoke and Stone Mountain bought from eBay). We tried to explain the costs, the reason why submitting the coins is a bad idea, why it is a bad idea (explaining cleaning etc.) and that he is throwing money down the drain. After 20+ minutes of insistence and refusal to leave, we took his payment to submit his coins and agreed to do it. How far must a dealer go to protect a customer from themselves?
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<< <i>As a PCGS/NGC member dealer, all sorts of people come in and ask about us submitting coins from them. There are instances where the person will be spending more money on sending the coin that the fees will be more than the coin is worth (even best case scenario.) A customer came in last week with a common modern commem and a couple clearly cleaned classic commems (Roanoke and Stone Mountain bought from eBay). We tried to explain the costs, the reason why submitting the coins is a bad idea, why it is a bad idea (explaining cleaning etc.) and that he is throwing money down the drain. After 20+ minutes of insistence and refusal to leave, we took his payment to submit his coins and agreed to do it. How far must a dealer go to protect a customer from themselves? >>
As far as you did....nothing else could have been done.
You are an ethical dealer.
20+ minutes is beyond the call of duty!!!!
<< <i>You did your best. Sleep well. >>
Agreed!
I've submitted some coins that weren't worth it...did it on purpose. I wanted them slabbed for my own reasons.
However, it is ok, imho, for a dealer to try to educate you on whether it is worth it or not....then it is up to the person to decide to listen or not.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
If you understand what is coming, then you can duck. If not, then you get sucker-punched. - Martin Armstrong
You can give as much information and knowledge to the customer as you want, but ultimately, I'm glad you still submitted them for the customer! They will come to learn about TPG the hard way
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If you are asking if it is ethical to send a coin to pcgs you know is cleaned or fake without saying anything to the customer I think that is wrong.
From pcgs website
"It is the responsibility of submitting dealers to screen coins to determine their suitability for grading."
<< <i>You cant save stupid people from themselves. Sounds like you did your part, now collect your well deserved fee.
One more thought, "You can't save stupid people from themselves but be sure to protect yourself from stupidly crafty people!"
Hopefully you have a plan in place for the inevitable "you switched coins on me" that gets tossed up when the coins don't grade and your customer realizes he/she just threw $60 plus shippping in the toilet despite your efforts?
The name is LEE!
GreenieJr, I think you fulfilled your obligations when you explained to your customer why you thought submission would not be in his best interests.
-Randy Newman
People often don't accept responsibility for their actions and try to place fault elsewhere, with the abscene of trust all the more likely they will seek someone else to blame.
"It is the responsibility of submitting dealers to screen coins to determine their suitability for grading." "
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That is the perfect explantaion that dealers should give
their uninformed/insistent customers.
There is no reason to accommodate ridiculous requests;
even if they are repeated multiple times.
Edit to fix my stupid mistakes in grammar and punctuation.
PM sent to express how I really feel, too
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
A few years ago a man came in the shop, well dressed, obviously a well educated professional of some sort with a raw gold coin he bought off eBay. I forget what it was, but it was a self slabbed coin graded MS65. A coin that was worth $100K in a PCGS 65 slab. He was thrilled that he "ripped" it for only 10K. I remember I told him the mint mark was obviously added and that he should return it withing the 5 day return period. He proceeded to insist it was genuine and wanted us to submit it. We did, it was altered, he was pissed.....
We finally got to the point of not submitting coins except for a very few select customers. The others we just tell them to join the Collectors Club....
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
<< <i>As a PCGS/NGC member dealer, all sorts of people come in and ask about us submitting coins from them. There are instances where the person will be spending more money on sending the coin that the fees will be more than the coin is worth (even best case scenario.) A customer came in last week with a common modern commem and a couple clearly cleaned classic commems (Roanoke and Stone Mountain bought from eBay). We tried to explain the costs, the reason why submitting the coins is a bad idea, why it is a bad idea (explaining cleaning etc.) and that he is throwing money down the drain. After 20+ minutes of insistence and refusal to leave, we took his payment to submit his coins and agreed to do it. How far must a dealer go to protect a customer from themselves? >>
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
People often don't accept responsibility for their actions and try to place fault elsewhere, with the abscene of trust all the more likely they will seek someone else to blame.
My thoughts exactly. I wouldn't have taken the submission.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>you can't fix stupid >>
That's what my wife says and points to me.
<< <i>
<< <i>you can't fix stupid >>
That's what my wife says and points to me. >>
We don't use those words in our marriage, maybe that's why almost 25 years of bliss. When we have a issue we have that stare at each other. We even use the stare when someone else ticks us off or does something abnormally weird.
<< <i>As a PCGS/NGC member dealer, all sorts of people come in and ask about us submitting coins from them. There are instances where the person will be spending more money on sending the coin that the fees will be more than the coin is worth (even best case scenario.) A customer came in last week with a common modern commem and a couple clearly cleaned classic commems (Roanoke and Stone Mountain bought from eBay). We tried to explain the costs, the reason why submitting the coins is a bad idea, why it is a bad idea (explaining cleaning etc.) and that he is throwing money down the drain. After 20+ minutes of insistence and refusal to leave, we took his payment to submit his coins and agreed to do it. How far must a dealer go to protect a customer from themselves? >>
I hope they don't try to say you switched their coins after they get a BB for cleaning. Did you take pictures of the coins, in their presence, before sending them in?
Inside was an 1822 half dollar. The Submission form called it an "1822-O," and valued it at $500,000. Now, there were a few random scratches above the date where the mint mark would appear in 1838, but ovbiously it was not an 1822-O.
I called the submittor, explained what it was and that the New Orleans mint did not even open until 1838, and said that if she would just send us a letter revising the value to, say, $50 we would refund most of her $500 fee (we used a sliding scale back then) and most of her $300 return postage.
She insisted it was an 1822-O and refused to change her submission. I then mailed her photocopies of the listing in Overton, showing the dies without a mint mark, and again asked her to change her declared value. She refused.
We certified it as a genuine 1822, O-whatever, and mailed the coin back Registered with her declared value. A few days later she called, all excited, and said that she had gotten the coin and the certificate. She asked "Does this mean that it is genuine?" and I said yes. She then asked "Does this mean that it is worth the $500,000?" and I said "No, it is a common 1822 half, and worth about $50."
She said "WELL! I'VE BEEN CHEATED AGAIN!" and hung up.
As somebody said, you can't fix stupid.
TD
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
<< <i>As a PCGS/NGC member dealer, all sorts of people come in and ask about us submitting coins from them. There are instances where the person will be spending more money on sending the coin that the fees will be more than the coin is worth (even best case scenario.) A customer came in last week with a common modern commem and a couple clearly cleaned classic commems (Roanoke and Stone Mountain bought from eBay). We tried to explain the costs, the reason why submitting the coins is a bad idea, why it is a bad idea (explaining cleaning etc.) and that he is throwing money down the drain. After 20+ minutes of insistence and refusal to leave, we took his payment to submit his coins and agreed to do it. How far must a dealer go to protect a customer from themselves? >>
As far as you did....nothing else could have been done.
You are an ethical dealer.
20+ minutes is beyond the call of duty!!!!
If somebody told me it's a waste of money to send these in, I would just take my coins and go.
the coins come back cleaned.
And he refused to leave? Am I reading that right? You cannot give in to maniacs like that.
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<< <i>had you declined to submit the coins, you might have endangered your "authorized dealer" status with PCGS, so you did everything you could. >>
I'd say, take that chance. You cannot have people trampling all over you just to submit coins for them.
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............i'm watching with you for an answer to your question, jack.
However, if framed as an ethics question... how far do we need to go in order to prevent danger to others, and perhaps in the long run... to ourselves (re: lawsuit...SanctionII could probably weigh in here). I could see the woman in the "1822-O" scenario coming back with a lawyer even though she's clearly mis-informed. Unfortunately, this doesn't prevent the dealer who bent over backwards to accomodate her from acruing legal fees (thus being damaged). In this sense, I like Utahcoins response in refering the customer who insists they're right (when they're obviously wrong) to Collectors' Corner and submit the coins themselves.
Leo
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He started picking them up and strumming them.
After going through a number of them, he found one that had a beautiful tone. He bought the guitar.
This was a favorite of his for many years, although he owned some other guitars that were much more expensive.
A couple years before he died he'd pretty much stopped playing. I told him how much I liked the sound of that guitar, and he said he'd sell it to me.
After he died, the glue on the back came loose in a small spot. I knew that Elderly Music in Lansing Michigan repaired guitars, so I drove over. It's a hundred twenty miles from my home.
They refused to even look at the guitar because it was "junk".
I told them I'd pay for the repair up front with cash. Still no dice.
The guitar wasn't worth fixing they said.
To me it was. I will never deal with Elderly again because of that.
So how does this relate to the slabbing? You never know what the circumstances of someone wanting a coin slabbed, is.
These coins could be just junk, but have some real meaning to the person.
Maybe you could have suggested a different third party grader. One that would have encapsulated them.
Ray
<< <i>After he died, the glue on the back came loose in a small spot. I knew that Elderly Music in Lansing Michigan repaired guitars, so I drove over. It's a hundred twenty miles from my home.
They refused to even look at the guitar because it was "junk".
I told them I'd pay for the repair up front with cash. Still no dice.
Ray >>
Ray - That's a great story. I'm curious, did you tell Elderly Music why you wanted the "junk" guitar fixed? I know it's none of their business why, bu I would think if you explained the sentimental value of the guitar they would be cooperative. I too would hesitate if someone just handed me the guitar without an explanation. But with the explanation, I might have repaired it for free just for the honor.
<< <i>My concern would be if the customer did not trust you at this point of the game, when you were trying to prevent he or she from financial loss, can not this lack of trust be twisted into them rationalizing that the coins were switched by you to manafacture the result you fortold?
People often don't accept responsibility for their actions and try to place fault elsewhere, with the absence of trust all the more likely they will seek someone else to blame. >>
Outstanding observation!