Dick is just a coin dealer, he is in it for the money. Every dealer needs a rip or 2 from time to time. ONCE you establish a relationship with Dick i am sure the game changes and he will help you out as long as you help his check account out. If you are just a passing one time buyer YOU BETTER LOOK OUT with any dealer.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
How do we know, given the minute "details" we've been told, that Bidask didn't inadvertantly get the ADULT screwed over?
How do we know the coin did not have EF45 or even AU details?
His opinion is that it was cleaned. It seems that given the other information that the price was probably a fair one given the coin and limited info we have.
Maybe the EF coin was a better coin for the money?
Until we hear the COMPLETE story, whether from Dick or the Adult, it's asinine for people to pile on Dick and pat BidAsk on the back for what he perceives and tells us was a good deed.
I didn't pile on and wont. I still aplaud bidask for growing our hobby by helping a young person.
As Goose pointed out this isn't a kid.
I would argue with that. My 20yo son is very green behind the ears. Society puts numbers on kids and calls them an adult. Is an adult one that can vote but not drink ? There are all sorts of situations where a 20 yo is considered an Adult and others not. DO is a coin dealer, bidask was giving some advice to a KID, I applaud him. It's that simple. A $2750 education for a 20yo is a big deal and should not happen, there are plenty of collectors that would buy the coin at a discount that know what the coin was. The difference here is this kid was too green to know. It's not possible for a Dealer to educate everyone all the time, esp when they're busy. That's why we need more people like bidask. It's nothing against DO.
Problem coins do have a place in our hobby, and I see nothing wrong with a dealer selling one as long as he discloses it as such. dealers are in a Buss not a hobby and as long as we collectors all remember that when buying or selling we won't be as surprised by what takes place. Bidask did a great thing in my opinion by passing some knowledge on to a novice collector. AL
goose, it appears you have quite a low opinion of bidask, his ability to grade coins, his ability to determine a collectors level in the hobby, and basically calling him out.
dealers sell good and bad coins and wish to get as much as they can for them.
collectors need to learn how to spot problem coins and learn to know when to heavily discount their value.
bidask really did not say anything bad about DO. He helped a collector out and hopefully educated him a bit.
i did not expect so much controversy out of this thread.
I just wish Dick Osborn would put photos up or provide them when asked. I like to see the photo when buying on-line (I know this happened at a show).
I chatted briefly about this with DO at the show yesterday. He brought up the discussion. He told me that this is his retirement job, and he is working fourteen hours per day. He does not to work any more, nor does he want any employees. He has a huge inventory, and he does not feel that it is worthwhile for him to provide images. He said that when I see images on his website, I'll know he sold the business.
Bottom line: It's his business, and he can run it any way he wants. If you do not like buying coins from someone without images, don't call him. Pretty simple.
<< <i>goose, it appears you have quite a low opinion of bidask, his ability to grade coins, his ability to determine a collectors level in the hobby, and basically calling him out.
dealers sell good and bad coins and wish to get as much as they can for them.
collectors need to learn how to spot problem coins and learn to know when to heavily discount their value.
bidask really did not say anything bad about DO. He helped a collector out and hopefully educated him a bit.
i did not expect so much controversy out of this thread. >>
Low Opinion of Bidask?
You base that on what? The fact that I'm not raising my pitchfork in the air to chase after Dick Osburn and that I'm not convinced that what BA did was worthy of all of the accolades based on what we were told in the initial post?
There are no facts in the post other than the coin was a PCI Gold label EF40, the price of that coin, the ANACS coin and price difference. The rest is all really up to your (apparently very active) imagination.
<< <i>goose, it appears you have quite a low opinion of bidask, his ability to grade coins, his ability to determine a collectors level in the hobby, and basically calling him out.
dealers sell good and bad coins and wish to get as much as they can for them.
collectors need to learn how to spot problem coins and learn to know when to heavily discount their value.
bidask really did not say anything bad about DO. He helped a collector out and hopefully educated him a bit.
i did not expect so much controversy out of this thread. >>
Low Opinion of Bidask?
You base that on what? The fact that I'm not raising my pitchfork in the air to chase after Dick Osburn and that I'm not convinced that what BA did was worthy of all of the accolades based on what we were told in the initial post?
There are no facts in the post other than the coin was a PCI Gold label EF40, the price of that coin, the ANACS coin and price difference. The rest is all really up to your (apparently very active) imagination. >>
bidask states: "but excessively cleaned and graded on the slab XF 40." and I believe him. do you?
bidask states: "but picking out a very poor speciman" and I believe him. do you?
bidask states: "came back with an original surfaces anacs vf 30 coin for the same price." and I believe him. do you?
facts to me is what bidask states. i believe him. i am asking if you trust bidask's opinion and it appears you do not.
that is my point. you are questioning bidask's story like he was some person who comes on here to start controversy for the fun of it. it appears you are the one imagining this to be some controversy.
I think dealers sell coins to make money. Not to educate collectors. Bidask tried to eduate, the dealer tried to make money. that is the moral of this story to me. It was not meant to flame DO. I really do not see that in Bidask's post, do you?
Problem coins are probably the best source of profit for a dealer. They can buy with heavy discount and price high. They just wait for a un knowing buyer. Since a lot of you want to put Dick on a pedestal as the cream of the cream he should put a red sticker on every problem coin in his inventory and a green sticker on all the original coins with a sign explaining this. That way a new collector does not have to worry. I do not see that happening just a RYK said he is not planning on pictures.
In the end it is buyer beware reguardless of the dealer!!
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
<< <i>facts to me is what bidask states. i believe him. i am asking if you trust bidask's opinion >>
Which is it? Fact? Opinion?
It seems you don't even know the difference.
<< <i>you are questioning bidask's story like he was some person who comes on here to start controversy for the fun of it. >>
Where did I state anything even remotely close to that? Again, your overactive imagination running wild and reading things into comments.
You or anyone cannot effectively claim that anyone was right or wrong given the minute amount of information in the original post.
There is no proof that DO did anything wrong and there is no proof that BA saved this adult's 2750.00 based on that information.
Why are you so quick to burn DO at the stake based on the opinions (facts according to you) of another given the tiny amount of information? Are you privy to more information on the deal that you could share with the rest of us? Please enlighten us.
when bidask states something i consider it a fact. he witnessed it and was part of the interaction. you not considering that a fact shows how much you seem to think of him.
and why in the world do you care about DO and why do you think we are putting him in a box labeled world's worst dealers?
it appears to me you like this controversy and being a person to stand up for the poor poor dealer trying to make a buck off this hobby.
i give up. you like this sort of stuff. i took away from it what bidask meant it to be.
i do not think DO to be any worse or better due to this thread.
"Where did I state anything even remotely close to that?"
oh please. read what you typed and make some inferences.
Goose is right, Dick did not do anything wrong. BUT HE did not do much to put a positive spin on coin collecting in this case either. If you are not in the circle of trust BUYER BEWARE profit over ethics. A lot of people put dealers like Dick on a higher level, i am not sure why. Maybe cause he has a ton of money tied up in coins over a small vest pocket dealer, or he specializes in the seated or earlier years and therefore he should be a teacher (like his wife used to be) Dealers are in business to profit, so you should always walk with caution when you open your wallet.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
<< <i>Goose is right, Dick did not do anything wrong. BUT HE did not do much to put a positive spin on coin collecting in this case either. If you are not in the circle of trust BUYER BEWARE profit over ethics. >>
Regarding the comment above.....How do you know what DO did, said, etc, given the tiny bit of information we were provided? That's my point on this entire thread. A lot of assuming going on.
And good old argumentative FC, go to Webster's online and look up Fact and Opinion. Regardless of what you think they do have 2 completely different definitions even if someone you choose to place on a pedestal states one or the other.
I know bidask, and I believe he did the right thing, under the circumstances. I do not understand why we have to label someone as the bad guy. If I were assigning blame, I would either go after PCI or the person who cleaned the coin.
No one has an answer for my scenario:
Let's turn this around a little bit. Let's say that the young man purchased a cleaned XF-details 1799 silver dollar a couple years ago. He has been reading on this forum, studying coins with a collector mentor, and learned that his prized coins is not what it ought to be. He goes to a show, approaches Dick Osburn's table, and asks Dick to buy the coin or take it on consignment, toward the purchase of a problem-free lower detail grade piece. What should Dick do in this scenario?
This thread is a slam at Dick Osburn. Dick is one of the best and most knowledgeable of dealers of Bust and Seated coins. He has the most extensive inventory of Bust and Seated coins anywhere. His prices may seem high if you look at the price guides, but the price guides are out of touch with the reality of the marketplace on this type of material. I think "bidask" should tell us his own name and the name of his coin dealing business. I for one, would like to make sure I never deal with him.
<< <i>Goose is right, Dick did not do anything wrong. BUT HE did not do much to put a positive spin on coin collecting in this case either. If you are not in the circle of trust BUYER BEWARE profit over ethics. A lot of people put dealers like Dick on a higher level, i am not sure why. Maybe cause he has a ton of money tied up in coins over a small vest pocket dealer, or he specializes in the seated or earlier years and therefore he should be a teacher (like his wife used to be) Dealers are in business to profit, so you should always walk with caution when you open your wallet. >>
You are right Goose. I am weary of EVERY dealer when it comes time to spend money. I have bought in the past from Dick and i will probably buy in the future from Dick. He has a 1879 proof nickel i need, saw it at the Grapvine show a few weeks back. ( he had 2 actually) If he has them and i get shut out of the upcoming Heritage auction i will buy. I pretty much put all dealers in one group. They are all selling and i am the consumer.
Even if i could not stand a dealer ( this is unrelated to this thread) I would buy a coin that i needed if they have it reguardless of my personal opinion of them.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
Best thread in a long time. Bravo bidask for not looking the otherway. IMO if you set up a table at a show you should be held up to standards higher than a used car salesman.
<< <i>I know bidask, and I believe he did the right thing, under the circumstances. I do not understand why we have to label someone as the bad guy. If I were assigning blame, I would either go after PCI or the person who cleaned the coin.
No one has an answer for my scenario:
Let's turn this around a little bit. Let's say that the young man purchased a cleaned XF-details 1799 silver dollar a couple years ago. He has been reading on this forum, studying coins with a collector mentor, and learned that his prized coins is not what it ought to be. He goes to a show, approaches Dick Osburn's table, and asks Dick to buy the coin or take it on consignment, toward the purchase of a problem-free lower detail grade piece. What should Dick do in this scenario? >>
Dick would do as he already does...he'd likely take the coin on consignment (first choice) or offer a price in line with his ability to sell the coin (quick sale = higher price; slow sale/long in inventory = lower price)
I have had limited dealings with Dick Osburn and from my experience he is a stand-up guy.
I also respect and appreciate the fact that Bidask helped out a less experienced member of the coin community. I don't think either of them should be lambasted for their actions.
I do not see how Mr. Osburn misrepresented the coin in question- it was slabbed by PCI and as a dealer I would operate under the assumption that anyone about to spend over $2000 on a coin knows what it is that he is looking for. We all have different tastes, and some people would prefer a classic coin that has some cleaning but also better detail to one that is more original but with less detail remaining. I don't think it is necessarily a dealer's job to disparage the coins he has for sale. From my reading of the post, Mr. Osburn did not in any way attempt to "steer" the buyer toward a problem coin.
I also have a little problem with the whole idea that people need to be protected from their own choices.
On the other hand, Bidask did a commendable thing by helping out a newcomer and educating him on the specifics of what to look for in that particular series. This is also his right, and he did nothing wrong by offering his opinion, which the young man wisely took. Mr. Osburn allowed the young man to exchange the coin with no fuss or bother.
I fail to see where anyone involved did anything unethical or backhanded.
JMO.
"College men from LSU- went in dumb, come out dumb too..." -Randy Newman
and in the interest of full disclosure, Dick Osburn is one of my favorite dealers. I have bought raw and slabbed problematic and problem-free coins from him many times; I have consigned numerous coins to him; I have sold numerous coins to him; I have had him represent me at auction many times (viewing coins, reporting on them, and then bidding for me). He is one of the best.
the OP should have left the dealers name out of this story- it's really irrelavent to the story. I mean when a guy comes over and looks over your 1799 dollars and plops down $2750 for one I would assume he knows what he is doing!
Regardless of reputations, the below is always true
TRUST NO ONE. SUSPECT, EVERYONE.
Every coin you buy, regardless who you get it from, what assurances were made, No matter what pedigree is on the holder, the coin must always meet your own standards, or no sale. As long as it is your hard earned cash you are spending, the quality of the coin must measure up to the price.
One point that has not been brought up is that Dick deals in a area that has more than its fair share of problem coins from years past and with the price run up the last 7 or so years doctors jumped in to line there pockets. We all want original problem free coins but in the end price sometimes changes that. But to put Dick up above the average dealers he should have higher standards.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
bear, some trust is needed in this industry...when it comes to return policies. Dick Osburn has one of the best, which is one of the reasons why he gets a lot of my business.
Bottom line: It's his business, and he can run it any way he wants. >>
just as it is the right of collectors to discuss dealers and interactions they have with them or witness. This is the whole point of this forum.
if other members wish to stick up for them fine. >>
You have unfairly taken my statement completely out of context. I was simply responding to one who criticized Dick for not having images on his website:
<<I just wish Dick Osborn would put photos up or provide them when asked. I like to see the photo when buying on-line (I know this happened at a show). >>
RYK response: I chatted briefly about this with DO at the show yesterday. He brought up the discussion. He told me that this is his retirement job, and he is working fourteen hours per day. He does not to work any more, nor does he want any employees. He has a huge inventory, and he does not feel that it is worthwhile for him to provide images. He said that when I see images on his website, I'll know he sold the business.
Bottom line: It's his business, and he can run it any way he wants. If you do not like buying coins from someone without images, don't call him. Pretty simple.
<< <i>Would it make any difference if the cleaned EF coin was in a PCGS or NGC holder? >>
great question! Answer should be "no, it wouldn't"
Dick offers a variety of coins and answers all questions that collectors ask as honestly as he can, using his extensive experience to formulate his answers. Collectors who are not 100% sure of their skills should ask lots and lots of questions when dealing with a trustworthy dealer...and avoid other types of dealers
<< <i>This thread is a slam at Dick Osburn. Dick is one of the best and most knowledgeable of dealers of Bust and Seated coins. He has the most extensive inventory of Bust and Seated coins anywhere. His prices may seem high if you look at the price guides, but the price guides are out of touch with the reality of the marketplace on this type of material. I think "bidask" should tell us his own name and the name of his coin dealing business. I for one, would like to make sure I never deal with him.
Ray >>
Based on what I've seen at shows, his prices are high relative to most other dealers, not just the price guides. I believe someone else stated earlier that he'll negotiate a fair bit from his marked prices, but I've never bought a coin from him, so I don't know. No question he carries quality material for the most part.
Regarding the matter at hand, if somebody comes up and says they want to spend X dollars on a certain type of coin, and the dealer shows them what he has, and the buyer picks out a coin, the dealer has done nothing wrong, IMO. Now, if the buyer asks for advice from the dealer, and he steers him toward inferior material, that is another matter.
junkie...stop by Dick's table, look through his stuff. If you find something you like, you will see that Dick will move from his list prices, often significantly.
Wow it's pretty obvious this thread is about a cleaned coin being sold without the buyer having a clue. Whether it was obvious and he should have known is not the point. The point is , is it proper to do so? Some agree some don't. I personally think if you know it's cleaned and you don't mention it (reguardless of the price) you are not being honest. All those that justify not mentioning it by saying you shoulda known better deserve to have their names posted PERIOD
<< <i>Wow it's pretty obvious this thread is about a cleaned coin being sold without the buyer having a clue. Whether it was obvious and he should have known is not the point. The point is , is it proper to do so? Some agree some don't. I personally think if you know it's cleaned and you don't mention it (reguardless of the price) you are not being honest. All those that justify not mentioning it by saying you shoulda known better deserve to have their names posted PERIOD >>
If you're gonna spend big bucks on any kind of coin, you better know what you're looking at.
<< <i>the OP should have left the dealers name out of this story- it's really irrelavent to the story. I mean when a guy comes over and looks over your 1799 dollars and plops down $2750 for one I would assume he knows what he is doing! >>
This is the point many are missing here. The OP sounds like a fair dealer and giving advice to a newbie is certainly admirable, but it does not take a mind reader to see the OPs post and title is about the DEALER specifically and is as much an attempt to point the finger at a specific person as it is to point out that you really should know what you are doing when purchasing more expensive coins. Let's be real here, the story could have easily be told without the specific dealers name in the title.
The internet is such an easy place to slam people, I am always surprised how people assume they know the whole story and pile on.
If I had a car and I was selling it to you guys and I knew the car had a problem wouldn't it be right to tell you everything about it? Or would others say: if your going to put money down for a car, you better do your research??
Doesn't matter if you are a car mechanic and could tell something is wrong with the vehicle or a high school student who saved and wanted to plop money down for a car, you should be told everything about the item.
Successful Buying and Selling transactions with:
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
<< <i>If I had a car and I was selling it to you guys and I knew the car had a problem wouldn't it be right to tell you everything about it? Or would others say: if your going to put money down for a car, you better do your research??
Doesn't matter if you are a car mechanic and could tell something is wrong with the vehicle or a high school student who saved and wanted to plop money down for a car, you should be told everything about the item. >>
Life is merely a series of choices.
If you choose to go through life making mistakes, why should I worry about it. Too many people want to blame others for their inability to know anything.
<< <i>If I had a car and I was selling it to you guys and I knew the car had a problem wouldn't it be right to tell you everything about it? Or would others say: if your going to put money down for a car, you better do your research?? >>
If your comparing this to cars I would say it's like your out shopping for a 1934 LaSalle far different than a guy looking for an 03 Malibu or a 1964 Kennedy.............
<< <i>I know bidask, and I believe he did the right thing, under the circumstances. I do not understand why we have to label someone as the bad guy. If I were assigning blame, I would either go after PCI or the person who cleaned the coin.
No one has an answer for my scenario:
Let's turn this around a little bit. Let's say that the young man purchased a cleaned XF-details 1799 silver dollar a couple years ago. He has been reading on this forum, studying coins with a collector mentor, and learned that his prized coins is not what it ought to be. He goes to a show, approaches Dick Osburn's table, and asks Dick to buy the coin or take it on consignment, toward the purchase of a problem-free lower detail grade piece. What should Dick do in this scenario? >>
Not sure why it would be relevant since that doesn't seem to be the situation as described, but since you asked he should do what is consisent with the business model that he has set for himself and I guess that the folks here who speak well of him probably know what that is and don't have an issue with it. Some other dealers may offer a polite no thanks. If I was a dealer I would likely not want such items in my cases much like the BMW dealer who doesn't want junk Fords and Chevys in his back lot. He might take em in trade out of courtesy, but he sells em to a wholesaler to get rid of em. Many dealers will take your low grade widgets with the idea that they will wholesale em out because it isn't worth the effort it takes to sell them.
<< <i>If I had a car and I was selling it to you guys and I knew the car had a problem wouldn't it be right to tell you everything about it? Or would others say: if your going to put money down for a car, you better do your research?? >>
If the car was certified by a third party, does that change anything?
I don't know bidask, but is it possible he has an agenda other than posting a story about his altruism saving a dumbass collector from a alleged bad deal? Referring to a 20 year old as a kid is my first inkling that something is lurking beneath the surface.
Comments
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
How do we know the coin did not have EF45 or even AU details?
His opinion is that it was cleaned. It seems that given the other information that the price was probably a fair one given the coin and limited info we have.
Maybe the EF coin was a better coin for the money?
Until we hear the COMPLETE story, whether from Dick or the Adult, it's asinine for people to pile on Dick and pat BidAsk on the back for what he perceives and tells us was a good deed.
I didn't pile on and wont. I still aplaud bidask for growing our hobby by helping a young person.
As Goose pointed out this isn't a kid.
I would argue with that. My 20yo son is very green behind the ears. Society puts numbers on kids and calls them an adult. Is an adult one that can vote but not drink ? There are all sorts of situations where a 20 yo is considered an Adult and others not. DO is a coin dealer, bidask was giving some advice to a KID, I applaud him. It's that simple. A $2750 education for a 20yo is a big deal and should not happen, there are plenty of collectors that would buy the coin at a discount that know what the coin was. The difference here is this kid was too green to know.
It's not possible for a Dealer to educate everyone all the time, esp when they're busy. That's why we need more people like bidask. It's nothing against DO.
I just wish Dick Osborn would put photos up or provide them when asked. I like to see the photo when buying on-line (I know this happened at a show).
I would never touch a PCI Gold coin...
<< <i>I didn't pile on and wont. I still aplaud bidask for growing our hobby by helping a young person.
>>
Why is everyone so quick to proclaim this as a fact?
We do not know anything about the deal other than what was overheard.
Maybe the EF coin was the better deal.
Bidask did a great thing in my opinion by passing some knowledge on to a novice collector.
AL
to grade coins, his ability to determine a collectors level in the hobby,
and basically calling him out.
dealers sell good and bad coins and wish to get as much as they can
for them.
collectors need to learn how to spot problem coins and learn to know
when to heavily discount their value.
bidask really did not say anything bad about DO. He helped a collector
out and hopefully educated him a bit.
i did not expect so much controversy out of this thread.
I chatted briefly about this with DO at the show yesterday. He brought up the discussion. He told me that this is his retirement job, and he is working fourteen hours per day. He does not to work any more, nor does he want any employees. He has a huge inventory, and he does not feel that it is worthwhile for him to provide images. He said that when I see images on his website, I'll know he sold the business.
Bottom line: It's his business, and he can run it any way he wants. If you do not like buying coins from someone without images, don't call him. Pretty simple.
<< <i>
Bottom line: It's his business, and he can run it any way he wants. >>
just as it is the right of collectors to discuss dealers and interactions
they have with them or witness. This is the whole point of this forum.
if other members wish to stick up for them fine.
<< <i>goose, it appears you have quite a low opinion of bidask, his ability
to grade coins, his ability to determine a collectors level in the hobby,
and basically calling him out.
dealers sell good and bad coins and wish to get as much as they can
for them.
collectors need to learn how to spot problem coins and learn to know
when to heavily discount their value.
bidask really did not say anything bad about DO. He helped a collector
out and hopefully educated him a bit.
i did not expect so much controversy out of this thread. >>
Low Opinion of Bidask?
You base that on what? The fact that I'm not raising my pitchfork in the air to chase after Dick Osburn and that I'm not convinced that what BA did was worthy of all of the accolades based on what we were told in the initial post?
There are no facts in the post other than the coin was a PCI Gold label EF40, the price of that coin, the ANACS coin and price difference. The rest is all really up to your (apparently very active) imagination.
occurred in this thread are as followed;
1. It is difficult to weigh a single instance against a persons
entire business reputation.
2. With only one side of the story or impression of the story,
it is very difficult to make a cogent determination.
3. Reputations are a very important part of any dealer's business model.
One must carefully weigh, infringing on that reputation, without very careful thought.
4. Before I criticize a person specifically, I always try to look at my self in the mirror, to see
If I should truly be casting the first stone.
Camelot
<< <i>
<< <i>goose, it appears you have quite a low opinion of bidask, his ability
to grade coins, his ability to determine a collectors level in the hobby,
and basically calling him out.
dealers sell good and bad coins and wish to get as much as they can
for them.
collectors need to learn how to spot problem coins and learn to know
when to heavily discount their value.
bidask really did not say anything bad about DO. He helped a collector
out and hopefully educated him a bit.
i did not expect so much controversy out of this thread. >>
Low Opinion of Bidask?
You base that on what? The fact that I'm not raising my pitchfork in the air to chase after Dick Osburn and that I'm not convinced that what BA did was worthy of all of the accolades based on what we were told in the initial post?
There are no facts in the post other than the coin was a PCI Gold label EF40, the price of that coin, the ANACS coin and price difference. The rest is all really up to your (apparently very active) imagination. >>
bidask states: "but excessively cleaned and graded on the slab XF 40." and I believe him. do you?
bidask states: "but picking out a very poor speciman" and I believe him. do you?
bidask states: "came back with an original surfaces anacs vf 30 coin for the same price." and I believe him. do you?
facts to me is what bidask states. i believe him. i am asking if you trust bidask's opinion
and it appears you do not.
that is my point. you are questioning bidask's story like he was some
person who comes on here to start controversy for the fun of it. it appears
you are the one imagining this to be some controversy.
I think dealers sell coins to make money. Not to educate collectors.
Bidask tried to eduate, the dealer tried to make money.
that is the moral of this story to me. It was not meant to flame DO.
I really do not see that in Bidask's post, do you?
In the end it is buyer beware reguardless of the dealer!!
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>facts to me is what bidask states. i believe him. i am asking if you trust bidask's opinion >>
It seems you don't even know the difference.
<< <i>you are questioning bidask's story like he was some
person who comes on here to start controversy for the fun of it. >>
Where did I state anything even remotely close to that? Again, your overactive imagination running wild and reading things into comments.
You or anyone cannot effectively claim that anyone was right or wrong given the minute amount of information in the original post.
There is no proof that DO did anything wrong and there is no proof that BA saved this adult's 2750.00 based on that information.
Why are you so quick to burn DO at the stake based on the opinions (facts according to you) of another given the tiny amount of information? Are you privy to more information on the deal that you could share with the rest of us? Please enlighten us.
it and was part of the interaction. you not considering that a fact
shows how much you seem to think of him.
and why in the world do you care about DO and why do you think
we are putting him in a box labeled world's worst dealers?
it appears to me you like this controversy and being a person to stand
up for the poor poor dealer trying to make a buck off this hobby.
i give up. you like this sort of stuff. i took away from it what bidask
meant it to be.
i do not think DO to be any worse or better due to this thread.
"Where did I state anything even remotely close to that?"
oh please. read what you typed and make some inferences.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>Goose is right, Dick did not do anything wrong. BUT HE did not do much to put a positive spin on coin collecting in this case either. If you are not in the circle of trust BUYER BEWARE profit over ethics. >>
Regarding the comment above.....How do you know what DO did, said, etc, given the tiny bit of information we were provided? That's my point on this entire thread. A lot of assuming going on.
And good old argumentative FC, go to Webster's online and look up Fact and Opinion. Regardless of what you think they do have 2 completely different definitions even if someone you choose to place on a pedestal states one or the other.
No one has an answer for my scenario:
Let's turn this around a little bit. Let's say that the young man purchased a cleaned XF-details 1799 silver dollar a couple years ago. He has been reading on this forum, studying coins with a collector mentor, and learned that his prized coins is not what it ought to be. He goes to a show, approaches Dick Osburn's table, and asks Dick to buy the coin or take it on consignment, toward the purchase of a problem-free lower detail grade piece. What should Dick do in this scenario?
Dick is one of the best and most knowledgeable of dealers of Bust and Seated coins.
He has the most extensive inventory of Bust and Seated coins anywhere.
His prices may seem high if you look at the price guides, but the price guides are out of touch with the reality of the marketplace on this type of material.
I think "bidask" should tell us his own name and the name of his coin dealing business.
I for one, would like to make sure I never deal with him.
Ray
<< <i>Goose is right, Dick did not do anything wrong. BUT HE did not do much to put a positive spin on coin collecting in this case either. If you are not in the circle of trust BUYER BEWARE profit over ethics. A lot of people put dealers like Dick on a higher level, i am not sure why. Maybe cause he has a ton of money tied up in coins over a small vest pocket dealer, or he specializes in the seated or earlier years and therefore he should be a teacher (like his wife used to be) Dealers are in business to profit, so you should always walk with caution when you open your wallet. >>
Please enlighten us on this "circle of trust"!
bidask clearly stated he did not hear the entire conversation
therefore, nothing else can or should be said regarding
the ethics of the transaction
<< <i>What should Dick do in this scenario? >>
Obviously, he should find out who sold the coin to the young man and then start a thread about him.
Even if i could not stand a dealer ( this is unrelated to this thread) I would buy a coin that i needed if they have it reguardless of my personal opinion of them.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
IMO if you set up a table at a show you should be held up to standards higher than a used car salesman.
<< <i>I know bidask, and I believe he did the right thing, under the circumstances. I do not understand why we have to label someone as the bad guy. If I were assigning blame, I would either go after PCI or the person who cleaned the coin.
No one has an answer for my scenario:
Let's turn this around a little bit. Let's say that the young man purchased a cleaned XF-details 1799 silver dollar a couple years ago. He has been reading on this forum, studying coins with a collector mentor, and learned that his prized coins is not what it ought to be. He goes to a show, approaches Dick Osburn's table, and asks Dick to buy the coin or take it on consignment, toward the purchase of a problem-free lower detail grade piece. What should Dick do in this scenario? >>
Dick would do as he already does...he'd likely take the coin on consignment (first choice) or offer a price in line with his ability to sell the coin (quick sale = higher price; slow sale/long in inventory = lower price)
If i need and want a coin i would buy it from a dealer i do not like if they have it.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
I also respect and appreciate the fact that Bidask helped out a less experienced member of the coin community. I don't think either of them should be lambasted for their actions.
I do not see how Mr. Osburn misrepresented the coin in question- it was slabbed by PCI and as a dealer I would operate under the assumption that anyone about to spend over $2000 on a coin knows what it is that he is looking for. We all have different tastes, and some people would prefer a classic coin that has some cleaning but also better detail to one that is more original but with less detail remaining. I don't think it is necessarily a dealer's job to disparage the coins he has for sale. From my reading of the post, Mr. Osburn did not in any way attempt to "steer" the buyer toward a problem coin.
I also have a little problem with the whole idea that people need to be protected from their own choices.
On the other hand, Bidask did a commendable thing by helping out a newcomer and educating him on the specifics of what to look for in that particular series. This is also his right, and he did nothing wrong by offering his opinion, which the young man wisely took. Mr. Osburn allowed the young man to exchange the coin with no fuss or bother.
I fail to see where anyone involved did anything unethical or backhanded.
JMO.
-Randy Newman
TRUST NO ONE. SUSPECT, EVERYONE.
Every coin you buy, regardless who you get it from,
what assurances were made, No matter what pedigree
is on the holder, the coin must always meet your own
standards, or no sale. As long as it is your hard earned
cash you are spending, the quality of the coin must
measure up to the price.
Camelot
One point that has not been brought up is that Dick deals in a area that has more than its fair share of problem coins from years past and with the price run up the last 7 or so years doctors jumped in to line there pockets. We all want original problem free coins but in the end price sometimes changes that. But to put Dick up above the average dealers he should have higher standards.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>
<< <i>
Bottom line: It's his business, and he can run it any way he wants. >>
just as it is the right of collectors to discuss dealers and interactions
they have with them or witness. This is the whole point of this forum.
if other members wish to stick up for them fine. >>
You have unfairly taken my statement completely out of context. I was simply responding to one who criticized Dick for not having images on his website:
<<I just wish Dick Osborn would put photos up or provide them when asked. I like to see the photo when buying on-line (I know this happened at a show). >>
RYK response: I chatted briefly about this with DO at the show yesterday. He brought up the discussion. He told me that this is his retirement job, and he is working fourteen hours per day. He does not to work any more, nor does he want any employees. He has a huge inventory, and he does not feel that it is worthwhile for him to provide images. He said that when I see images on his website, I'll know he sold the business.
Bottom line: It's his business, and he can run it any way he wants. If you do not like buying coins from someone without images, don't call him. Pretty simple.
<< <i>Would it make any difference if the cleaned EF coin was in a PCGS or NGC holder? >>
great question! Answer should be "no, it wouldn't"
Dick offers a variety of coins and answers all questions that collectors ask as honestly as he can, using his extensive experience to formulate his answers. Collectors who are not 100% sure of their skills should ask lots and lots of questions when dealing with a trustworthy dealer...and avoid other types of dealers
<< <i>This thread is a slam at Dick Osburn.
Dick is one of the best and most knowledgeable of dealers of Bust and Seated coins.
He has the most extensive inventory of Bust and Seated coins anywhere.
His prices may seem high if you look at the price guides, but the price guides are out of touch with the reality of the marketplace on this type of material.
I think "bidask" should tell us his own name and the name of his coin dealing business.
I for one, would like to make sure I never deal with him.
Ray >>
Based on what I've seen at shows, his prices are high relative to most other dealers,
not just the price guides. I believe someone else stated earlier that he'll negotiate
a fair bit from his marked prices, but I've never bought a coin from him, so I don't
know. No question he carries quality material for the most part.
Regarding the matter at hand, if somebody comes up and says they want to spend
X dollars on a certain type of coin, and the dealer shows them what he has, and the
buyer picks out a coin, the dealer has done nothing wrong, IMO. Now, if the buyer
asks for advice from the dealer, and he steers him toward inferior material, that is
another matter.
Whether it was obvious and he should have known is not the point. The point is , is it proper to do so?
Some agree some don't.
I personally think if you know it's cleaned and you don't mention it (reguardless of the price) you are not being honest.
All those that justify not mentioning it by saying you shoulda known better deserve to have their names posted PERIOD
<< <i>Wow it's pretty obvious this thread is about a cleaned coin being sold without the buyer having a clue.
Whether it was obvious and he should have known is not the point. The point is , is it proper to do so?
Some agree some don't.
I personally think if you know it's cleaned and you don't mention it (reguardless of the price) you are not being honest.
All those that justify not mentioning it by saying you shoulda known better deserve to have their names posted PERIOD >>
If you're gonna spend big bucks on any kind of coin, you better know what you're looking at.
<< <i>the OP should have left the dealers name out of this story- it's really irrelavent to the story. I mean when a guy comes over and looks over your 1799 dollars and plops down $2750 for one I would assume he knows what he is doing! >>
This is the point many are missing here. The OP sounds like a fair dealer and giving advice to a newbie is certainly admirable, but it does not take a mind reader to see the OPs post and title is about the DEALER specifically and is as much an attempt to point the finger at a specific person as it is to point out that you really should know what you are doing when purchasing more expensive coins. Let's be real here, the story could have easily be told without the specific dealers name in the title.
The internet is such an easy place to slam people, I am always surprised how people assume they know the whole story and pile on.
Doesn't matter if you are a car mechanic and could tell something is wrong with the vehicle or a high school student who saved and wanted to plop money down for a car, you should be told everything about the item.
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
<< <i>If I had a car and I was selling it to you guys and I knew the car had a problem wouldn't it be right to tell you everything about it? Or would others say: if your going to put money down for a car, you better do your research??
Doesn't matter if you are a car mechanic and could tell something is wrong with the vehicle or a high school student who saved and wanted to plop money down for a car, you should be told everything about the item. >>
Life is merely a series of choices.
If you choose to go through life making mistakes, why should I worry about it. Too many people want to blame others for their inability to know anything.
<< <i>If I had a car and I was selling it to you guys and I knew the car had a problem wouldn't it be right to tell you everything about it? Or would others say: if your going to put money down for a car, you better do your research?? >>
If your comparing this to cars I would say it's like your out shopping for a 1934 LaSalle far different than a guy looking for an 03 Malibu or a 1964 Kennedy.............
<< <i>I know bidask, and I believe he did the right thing, under the circumstances. I do not understand why we have to label someone as the bad guy. If I were assigning blame, I would either go after PCI or the person who cleaned the coin.
No one has an answer for my scenario:
Let's turn this around a little bit. Let's say that the young man purchased a cleaned XF-details 1799 silver dollar a couple years ago. He has been reading on this forum, studying coins with a collector mentor, and learned that his prized coins is not what it ought to be. He goes to a show, approaches Dick Osburn's table, and asks Dick to buy the coin or take it on consignment, toward the purchase of a problem-free lower detail grade piece. What should Dick do in this scenario? >>
Not sure why it would be relevant since that doesn't seem to be the situation as described, but since you asked he should do what is consisent with the business model that he has set for himself and I guess that the folks here who speak well of him probably know what that is and don't have an issue with it. Some other dealers may offer a polite no thanks. If I was a dealer I would likely not want such items in my cases much like the BMW dealer who doesn't want junk Fords and Chevys in his back lot. He might take em in trade out of courtesy, but he sells em to a wholesaler to get rid of em. Many dealers will take your low grade widgets with the idea that they will wholesale em out because it isn't worth the effort it takes to sell them.
I think it was likley a difficult thing to do, but clearly the hobby is better place when knowledge is shared
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>If I had a car and I was selling it to you guys and I knew the car had a problem wouldn't it be right to tell you everything about it? Or would others say: if your going to put money down for a car, you better do your research?? >>
If the car was certified by a third party, does that change anything?
I don't know bidask, but is it possible he has an agenda other than posting a story about his altruism saving a dumbass collector from a alleged bad deal? Referring to a 20 year old as a kid is my first inkling that something is lurking beneath the surface.
My return policy is as generous as any in the industry: 30 days on raw coins, 10 days on slabs, no reason required