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What happens when the current “specialists” die?

Numismatics is filled with specialists on one coin series or another, or a specific aspect of minting. Given the relatively small size of the hobby and the complete absence of academic or business support for research, there might be only one person holding highly specialized knowledge. What happens when that specialist dies, kicks the bucket, shuffles off, fades away, moves to Shangri La?

[My own specialty is the numeral “4” on date logotypes of 1827...highly esoteric stuff. Will there be anyone to pick up the standard, to hoist the legionary eagle?]

Comments

  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,800 ✭✭✭✭✭
    We are all counting on Longacre to pick up the slack. image
  • STONESTONE Posts: 15,275
    VIVA LA Longacre

    imageimage


  • << <i>

    [My own specialty is the numeral “4” on date logotypes of 1827...highly esoteric stuff. >>



    Doesn't seem like that would take much time to figure out.
  • ColonialCoinUnionColonialCoinUnion Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭


    << <i>What happens when that specialist dies, kicks the bucket, shuffles off, fades away, moves to Shangri La? >>



    There generally seems to be someone new ready to step in and carry the ball.
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,697 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That makes me sad to think we would lose any of you, but... great question.

    Annual symposium in Omaha ? I'll bring the donuts.
  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,492 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Numismatics is filled with specialists on one coin series or another, or a specific aspect of minting. Given the relatively small size of the hobby and the complete absence of academic or business support for research, there might be only one person holding highly specialized knowledge. What happens when that specialist dies, kicks the bucket, shuffles off, fades away, moves to Shangri La?

    [My own specialty is the numeral “4” on date logotypes of 1827...highly esoteric stuff. Will there be anyone to pick up the standard, to hoist the legionary eagle?] >>



    If that specialist were that unique, surlely he/she would have documented his/her research in either a book or personal notes.
    If in a book, then the information gets passed on to a new generation, if in personal notes, I feel confident that that information would be offered to the public.
    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • jfoot13jfoot13 Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭
    I think the vice specialist is next in line followed by the speaker of the house ( that would be Longacre)image
    If you can't swim you better stay in the boat.......
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,949 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Numismatics is filled with specialists on one coin series or another, or a specific aspect of minting. Given the relatively small size of the hobby and the complete absence of academic or business support for research, there might be only one person holding highly specialized knowledge. What happens when that specialist dies, kicks the bucket, shuffles off, fades away, moves to Shangri La?

    [My own specialty is the numeral “4” on date logotypes of 1827...highly esoteric stuff. Will there be anyone to pick up the standard, to hoist the legionary eagle?] >>




    Are yopu sure you're even the right person to ask the question?




    AND WHEN I DIE -BST ~'69

    I'm not scared of dying,
    And I don't really care.
    If it's peace you find in dying,
    Well then let the time be near.
    If it's peace you find in dying,
    And if dying time is here,
    Just bundle up my coffin
    'Cause it's cold way down there.
    I hear that its cold way down their.
    Yeah, crazy cold way down their.

    Chorus:

    And when I die, and when I'm gone,
    There'll be one child born
    In this world to carry on,
    to carry on.

    Now troubles are many, they're as deep as a well.
    I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell.
    Swear there ain't no heaven and I pray there ain't no hell,
    But I'll never know by living, only my dying will tell.
    Yes only my dying will tell.
    Yeah, only my dying will tell.

    Chorus

    Give me my freedom for as long as I be.
    All I ask of living is to have no chains on me.
    All I ask of living is to have no chains on me,
    And all I ask of dying is to go naturally.
    Oh I want to go naturally.

    Here I go,
    Hey Hey!
    Here comes the devil,
    Right Behind.
    Look out children,
    Here he comes!
    Here he comes! Hey...

    Don't want to go by the devil.
    Don't want to go by demon.
    Don't want to go by Satan,
    Don't want to die uneasy.
    Just let me go naturally.

    and when I die,
    When I'm dead, dead and gone,
    There'll be one child born in our world to carry on,
    To carry on.
    Yeah, yeah

    tempus fugit extra philosophiam.
  • RWBRWB Posts: 8,082
    ouch!
  • fcfc Posts: 12,796 ✭✭✭
    another person takes their place who knows the most about the
    specialty and they are deemed the specialist...

    seems rather simple. if one person can learn that much about it another
    can. specialists are replaceable. they are not einstein material after all. just takes a special devotion to the specialty they love/adore/great interest.
  • RWBRWB Posts: 8,082
    In certain fields of science, such as botany or entomology, there can be a single specialist in a particular species of moss or beetle. When that specialist dies, nearly all research in that subject stops until, possibly many decades later, another person happens to take up the mantle.
  • DentuckDentuck Posts: 3,828 ✭✭✭
    RWB,

    At this year's breakfast of the Rittenhouse Society*, someone --- it may have been you, or was it Pete Smith? --- raised this question. I didn't say anything at the time, but frankly it was a pretty disturbing question. There are many numismatists who are quiet, dedicated, and dogged researchers, who have compiled and continue to compile vast amounts of information, think through challenging questions, make brilliant intellectual connections, and write about their discoveries in private journals and notes. But much of their work is unpublished. Much of it is perhaps not as appreciated by spouses and family members as it might be, given its specialized nature. The question is disturbing ("What happens to their knowledge when they shuffle off this mortal coil?") in the same way it's disturbing when a collector dies and his wife doesn't know the value of his collection and sells it cheap. But the injustice of that kind of loss at least can be mollified by various thoughts --- "His coins are re-entering the hobby community; someone else will enjoy them now; at least his widow is getting something." What happens when notebooks of inscrutable, rarefied research are thrown out? When computer files with thousands of bits and pieces of knowledge are deleted or downloaded to CDs and packed away, while the intellectual connections die with the man?

    It's important for collectors to have a notebook in their safe or bank box, or attached to their will, telling their family what they own and what value it has, how to dispose of it, who in the hobby community will appreciate it and can be trusted to help evaluate it, etc.

    It's just as important for researchers to leave some information and guidance about their research.




    * I was there as a guest, not a member!

  • BarndogBarndog Posts: 20,518 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>
    It's important for collectors to have a notebook in their safe or bank box, or attached to their will, telling their family what they own and what value it has, how to dispose of it, who in the hobby community will appreciate it and can be trusted to help evaluate it, etc.
    >>



    I hadn't thought of the notebook idea...I like it and will work at getting one together for my SDBs
  • BarndogBarndog Posts: 20,518 ✭✭✭✭✭
    a simple point: I think it is likely that research into bust coinage is not as extensive today as it could have been if Russ Logan were still alive. When specialists die, especially the really good ones, the hobby loses something
  • This content has been removed.
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,949 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i> but frankly it was a pretty disturbing question. There are many numismatists who are quiet, dedicated, and dogged researchers, who have compiled and continue to compile vast amounts of information, think through challenging questions, make brilliant intellectual connections, and write about their discoveries in private journals and notes. But much of their work is unpublished. Much of it is perhaps not as appreciated by spouses and family members as it might be, given its specialized nature. The question is disturbing ("What happens to their knowledge when they shuffle off this mortal coil?")
    >>



    Imagine how difficult progress was before 3100 BC when writing was invented.


    ...And then it took another score of centuries before coins were invented.


    One must keep smoe perspective here. Buck up, it's the journey, not the destination. image
    tempus fugit extra philosophiam.
  • RWBRWB Posts: 8,082
    There is no destination.
  • DentuckDentuck Posts: 3,828 ✭✭✭
    One must keep smoe perspective here. Buck up, it's the journey, not the destination.

    - - -

    I'm talking about the journey.

  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,949 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's not that I'm unsympathetic to the problem; there are specialties
    so narrow that only a single individual might be involved. If there is
    no one to carry the standard his work may be lost and researchers
    in the future have to start from square one or even further back. It's
    a shame that the information is lost.

    But look at the bigger picture. The odds are good that these things
    are never going to be critical to the species. Even if they were, there
    are many far more important issues and things which go wholly unex-
    plored.

    It is a very legitimate question but I'm not sure it's a very important
    question nor is it a very answerable one.

    Perhaps the best answer I might suggest is that if you're working in
    an area by yourself then you should select an "heir apparent" and
    provide that person with as much of your work as practical. If some-
    one comes along with an interest then, with great luck, your material
    may find its way to them.

    It wasn't my intention to belittle the question. But to my mind it has
    more of the earmarks of a rhetorical question than anything else.
    tempus fugit extra philosophiam.
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  • BarndogBarndog Posts: 20,518 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>It is a reality and although Barndog may very well be right, he should know. There are many including him who can carry the torch with cbhd's. >>



    I can't yet take the pebble from Master's hand
  • DennisHDennisH Posts: 14,015 ✭✭✭✭✭
    They either go to coin heaven, or somewhere else.

    I hope I won't need to bring a loupe.
    When in doubt, don't.
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  • RWBRWB Posts: 8,082
    The original question was not rhetorical, but practical.

    (Obviously, my personal example was too flippant and might have been more distraction than anything else.)
  • DentuckDentuck Posts: 3,828 ✭✭✭
    I agree with RWB, I see this as more than a rhetorical question or a coin wonk's ivory-tower fussing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It's a relevant question, as relevant as asking, "Is your family informed of the extent and content of your collection?" We worry about being good stewards of our coins --- our tangible assets --- we store them in chemically neutral holders, we don't harshly clean them, we hold them only by the edge, over a soft surface, etc. RWB's question goes to the heart of being good stewards of numismatics, of knowledge.

  • DaveGDaveG Posts: 3,535
    Roger,

    Obviously, the first answer is to publish what you know.

    The second answer is to make sure that numismatists remember what has been published - keeping bibliographies and electronic indexes up-to-date is very important, too.

    The third answer is to encourage more collectors to become researchers.

    Check out the Southern Gold Society

  • RWBRWB Posts: 8,082
    Specialists frequently attempt to solve multiple puzzles using pieces pulled randomly from a bag. Many pieces don’t fit any of the puzzles and some of the pieces fit many puzzles. As puzzles are completed, the specialist might publish the information – provided an editor is interested, provided there is money, provided anyone is interested at the time the puzzle is offered. If something is published, then it has to be identifiable by others and accessible. (For a real world example, consider the many excellent original research articles published in Coin World. If one knows exactly what one is searching for, a CW staff member might be able to find the article in their morgue. But there’s no index, no set of abstracts, nothing to help. Much excellent information has been effectively lost.)

    When a specialist is working they may not necessarily keep very thorough records. As has been mentioned on early dollars and bust coinage, some specialists kept many puzzle pieces in their head – intending to one day complete the picture. That day never came. Now the connections are lost. Of the finest numismatic writers of the past left timely and incredibly useful work behind. But they also took with them much more that we might never know.

    I am proposing no “solution” for there isn’t one, or several or many. It is possibly to contemplate how we value, secure and transmit knowledge.
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,697 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So skip the symposium and forget about me bringing donuts. It was a bad idea.
    edit to add:
    image
  • DaveGDaveG Posts: 3,535
    Roger,

    The one advantage numismatic researchers have today is that we don't need an editor who's interested, nor do we need to look for a numismatic publication with space in its printed pages.

    If someone has a partial puzzle, he can send it to an electronic publication (like the E-Sylum) - it may be useful immediately or someone may stumble across it six months (or six years) from now. In any case, the E-Sylum doesn't have any space limitations - megabytes are a lot cheaper than paper and much easier to search through.

    As for an index to Coin World, even though they'll never do it, someday an obsessive-compulsive coin collector (I hear there are one or two) will sit down with the back issues and create an index.

    In any event, Roger, don't be like "them old guys" - write everything down! Do it now!

    or at least dictate it to Longacre image

    Check out the Southern Gold Society

  • orevilleoreville Posts: 12,188 ✭✭✭✭✭
    RWB:

    You and I had discussed an apprenticeship program under the aegis of the ANA in which a new seminar which you called "ruminents of research" could be commenced as soon as 2009. Perhaps a renewed effort to make it happen?

    Keep in mind that for nearly 100 years the entire coin hobby did not realize that the early $20 Libs had a major misspelling of LIBERTY. Obviously the US Mint officials and others knew of the correction back in the 19th century but no researchers kept that information alive until it was rediscovered many many generations later.
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!


  • << <i>

    << <i>It is a reality and although Barndog may very well be right, he should know. There are many including him who can carry the torch with cbhd's. >>



    I can't yet take the pebble from Master's hand >>



    Any chance the "Master" might publish a book someday? That's one I would definitely purchase.

    Very thought-provoking question and responses.
    "College men from LSU- went in dumb, come out dumb too..."
    -Randy Newmanimage
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,501 ✭✭✭✭✭
    there are specialties so narrow that only a single individual might be involved. If there is no one to carry the standard his work may be lost and researchers in the future have to start from square one or even further back. It's a shame that the information is lost.

    Not really. If the information has value, it will be rediscovered by someone else. Two people will have had the joy of discovery instead of just one.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • GrumpyEdGrumpyEd Posts: 4,749 ✭✭✭
    Most known specialists are known because they had already been passing on some of their knowledge. Hopefully they leave behind information and some new specialists in the making. : )
    Ed
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,697 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Numismatics is filled with specialists on one coin series or another, or a specific aspect of minting. Given the relatively small size of the hobby and the complete absence of academic or business support for research, there might be only one person holding highly specialized knowledge. What happens when that specialist dies, kicks the bucket, shuffles off, fades away, moves to Shangri La?

    [My own specialty is the numeral “4” on date logotypes of 1827...highly esoteric stuff. Will there be anyone to pick up the standard, to hoist the legionary eagle?] >>



    I could bring crayons™ , for example.
  • shorecollshorecoll Posts: 5,447 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This thread brought to you by the letter E and the number 7image

    FYI, the major literature auctions (Kolbe, Davis et al) often have original research journals from past numismatists that have not been shared, published or anything else. However, someone did have the foresight to save the notebooks and give/sell them to someone. In the digital age, such files could easily be discarded... who searches Grandpa's hard drive for original research? Hmmm!!image
    ANA-LM, NBS, EAC
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Grim thread... but no need to worry as like Doritos we'll just make more image
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    For Capped Bust Half Dollars, the John Reich Collectors Society and the Bust Half Nut Club are not dependent on any one, or even any few specialists. The CBH research has been well documented, and assimilated by many collectors of this series.

    If you are referring to dealer specialists, Sheridan Downey may have some information on Bust Half private collections, but not much is secret from the Bust Nuts. There are no other Bust Half Dollar dealers with inside information.

    Many now know what happens to specialists in Classic Commemoratives like Larry Shepherd, they go on to be ANA Executive Director.
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • LongacreLongacre Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
    There are a lot of hungry young numismatists. I feel as though top specialists have an obligation to the science of numismatics to pass along their knowledge to others, mostly to someone who is able to continue to research and discoveries of the specialist.
    Always took candy from strangers
    Didn't wanna get me no trade
    Never want to be like papa
    Working for the boss every night and day
    --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 20,455 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>They either go to coin heaven, or somewhere else. >>


    And by "somewhere else," you mean Long Beach, right?
  • CoinosaurusCoinosaurus Posts: 9,645 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>There are a lot of hungry young numismatists. I feel as though top specialists have an obligation to the science of numismatics to pass along their knowledge to others, mostly to someone who is able to continue to research and discoveries of the specialist. >>



    LA, any time you want to come over and clean all the old research files out of the basement, have at it. Be careful what you wish for image

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