At the silver dollar show I was looking at Dick Osborn's case when...

bidask · October 18, 2008 6:37AM

a young collector/numismatist comes up and inquired about bust dollars. Dick showed him a few coins and I overheard the young man say "I finally saved up enough to get one of these". He then preceded to choose a s1799 speciman in a gold PCI holder that was not dipped but excessively cleaned and graded on the slab XF 40.

As he paid Dick the cash, I was cringing inside myself. Here this guy was parting with his hard earned money but picking out a very poor speciman. I really felt like saying something to him but decided I would be out of place to do so.

I went back to my my table ( I set up a couple times a year at St Louis shows) and about ten minutes after I witnessed this transaction this same young man walks by my table. I said to him " young man please sit down I need to talk with you", and proceeded to give him a ten minute lecture of how he is going to be around along time in this hobby and to therefore get in a habit of buying original coins.

I suggested to him to take his coin back to Dick and request a trade for an original surfaces coin even if he paid up in price or came down in grade but told him "just do it". He did it and came back with an original surfaces anacs vf 30 coin for the same price.

He came back to show it to me and I encouraged him. I wish I had someone to sit me down like that when I was in my early twenties.

Barndog · October 18, 2008 6:44AM

good of you to do that and even better of the collector to heed the advice!

Bayard1908 · October 18, 2008 6:45AM

When you said "young man," I thought he was 12 years old.

lcoopie · October 18, 2008 6:50AM

you are a good fellow bidask

did Dick mention the "excessive cleaning" to the customer, or was it noted on the holder?

how much did something like that go for?

DoUPlayOnePocket · October 18, 2008 6:51AM

The hobby needs more people like you. It's unfortunate that some dealers can't or won't take the time to talk to their clientele.

Chris

bidask · October 18, 2008 6:54AM

<< you are a good fellow bidask

did Dick mention the "excessive cleaning" to the customer, or was it noted on the holder?

how much did something like that go for? >>

I do not recall overhearing any spoken caveats but the price paid was around $2750.

ajia · October 18, 2008 6:56AM

.....1799 speciman in a gold PCI holder.

GOLD HOLDER?

Since you saw the grade of the anacs vf 30 coin, and you know the price paid, did he do alright??
I would be upset, but I'm sure it happens all the time.
Profit over repeat customer.

PS-Thanks for naming names, maybe it'll make dealers think twice about not disclosing all problem coins for wat they are, rather than passing off problem as 'no-problem' coins just because they've been graded as 'no-problem'

Hyperion · October 18, 2008 6:58AM

<< good of you to do that and even better of the collector to heed the advice! >>

hear hear

bidask · October 18, 2008 7:01AM

<< .....1799 speciman in a gold PCI holder.

GOLD?

Since you saw the grade of the anacs vf 30 coin, and you know the price paid, did he do alright??
I would be upset, but I'm sure it happens all the time.
Profit over repeat customer.

>>

He certainly did alright compared to what he had relative to the resale value.

And yes I was upset too.

jmski52 · October 18, 2008 7:01AM

Good move, bidask. But, I do have some concerns. I've been here on this board for about 2 years, and I've only heard good things said about Dick Osborn. In fact, I went by his table specifically to introduce myself, but he was gone somewhere at the time.

I'm wondering why Dick wouldn't have had the same conversation with the customer that you did.

SeattleSlammer · October 18, 2008 7:04AM

I also appreciate bidask's approach. But someone in his young 20s dropping $2750 should have more of a clue, too. At least it sounds like the guy saved and paid cash instead of using credit.

STONE · October 18, 2008 7:05AM

I think you did a perfect thing in talking to him about the originality.

I've had several dealers have a similar talk with me about that, but then I just took out some coins to show them, the dealer would then smile and say something to the effect of "you really didn't need this talk did you

"

Barndog · October 18, 2008 7:07AM

the PCI coin is not listed on his website, must have been a new purchase for Dick.

bidask · October 18, 2008 7:08AM

<< Good move, bidask. But, I do have some concerns. I've been here on this board for about 2 years, and I've only heard good things said about Dick Osborn. In fact, I went by his table specifically to introduce myself, but he was gone somewhere at the time.

I'm wondering why Dick wouldn't have had the same conversation with the customer that you did. >>

I want to be cleear I am not posting this in anyway to demean Dick who has an outstanding reputation. My sense was Dick had showed the person several bust dollars and let him make his own choice. I am sure Dick was gentlemanly in handling the exchange. I am posting this because this is what happened and I hope this this young man takes to heart what I said. I actually felt a little awkward taliking to him this way as I did not know him.

Swampboy · October 18, 2008 7:13AM

<< I'm wondering why Dick wouldn't have had the same conversation with the customer that you did. >>

I'm gonna stick my neck out here.
Dick Osborn possibly took that coin in trade from another collector who was improving his collection while improving his eye.
Exactly how many shows is he supposed to bring this piece to while he is warning prospective buyers of its relative faults
before he would allow someone to walk home with it.

I think if we could agree on how many shows it would take then we could contact him and find out whether or not he had hit the requisite number in this instance before we trash his reputation.

edit to say.. trash is a strong word. I should have found a better term.

jmski52 · October 18, 2008 7:13AM

I want to be cleear I am not posting this in anyway to demean Dick who has an outstanding reputation. My sense was Dick had showed the person several bust dollars and let him make his own choice. I am sure Dick was gentlemanly in handling the exchange. I am posting this because this is what happened and I hope this this young man takes to heart what I said. I actually felt a little awkward taliking to him this way as I did not know him.

And my observation wasn't intended to reflect negatively on Dick, either. He obviously made an exchange in good faith with no problem. When I'm looking at a coin that I've saved up for, I make sure that the dealer educates me, beyond what I might already know.

Being a good customer and asking questions is as important as being a good dealer and knowing the answers.

Barndog · October 18, 2008 7:19AM

<< 

<< I'm wondering why Dick wouldn't have had the same conversation with the customer that you did. >>

I'm gonna stick my neck out here.
Dick Osborn possibly took that coin in trade from another collector who was improving his collection while improving his eye.
Exactly how many shows is he supposed to bring this piece to while he is warning prospective buyers of its relative faults
before he would allow someone to walk home with it.

I think if we could agree on how many shows it would take then we could contact him and find out whether or not he had hit the requisite number in this instance before we trash his reputation.

edit to say.. trash is a strong word. I should have found a better term. >>

see my post previously, I do believe it was a newp for Dick, as it had yet to be posted in his inventory. Anyway, the collector selected the coin from the many that Dick has for sale (he typically has a dozen or more 1799s at a given show). A newbie collector is likely swayed by the grade on the label, which is why bidask's educational discussion with the collector was so valuable.

fc · October 18, 2008 7:23AM

ah.. a new collector surrounded by sharks out to make their daily profit. recipe for disaster that repeats itself over and over.

good that you did that bidask.

ajia · October 18, 2008 7:42AM

So here is what I am reading into this.....

....preceded to choose a s1799 speciman in a gold PCI holder that was not dipped but excessively cleaned and graded on the slab XF 40.
I read hairlines or worse here.

....the price paid was around $2750.
Looks like overpriced for a problem coin, but underpriced for a no-problem coin.

I find it hard to believe Dick did not know what he was selling.

BAJJERFAN · October 18, 2008 8:15AM

<< 

<< Good move, bidask. But, I do have some concerns. I've been here on this board for about 2 years, and I've only heard good things said about Dick Osborn. In fact, I went by his table specifically to introduce myself, but he was gone somewhere at the time.

I'm wondering why Dick wouldn't have had the same conversation with the customer that you did. >>

I want to be cleear I am not posting this in anyway to demean Dick who has an outstanding reputation. My sense was Dick had showed the person several bust dollars and let him make his own choice. I am sure Dick was gentlemanly in handling the exchange. I am posting this because this is what happened and I hope this this young man takes to heart what I said. I actually felt a little awkward taliking to him this way as I did not know him. >>

The better question would be why would a reputable dealer even take such a coin in trade or even try to sell it? I should have said respected instead as I believe that one could be reputable without being respected.

Goldbully · October 18, 2008 8:17AM

The better question would be why would a reputable dealer even take such a coin in trade or even try to sell it?

I feel the same way.

Dick is far from being considered a predatory dealer.

Very strange set of circumstances.

Barndog · October 18, 2008 8:18AM

<< 

<< 

<< Good move, bidask. But, I do have some concerns. I've been here on this board for about 2 years, and I've only heard good things said about Dick Osborn. In fact, I went by his table specifically to introduce myself, but he was gone somewhere at the time.

I'm wondering why Dick wouldn't have had the same conversation with the customer that you did. >>

I want to be cleear I am not posting this in anyway to demean Dick who has an outstanding reputation. My sense was Dick had showed the person several bust dollars and let him make his own choice. I am sure Dick was gentlemanly in handling the exchange. I am posting this because this is what happened and I hope this this young man takes to heart what I said. I actually felt a little awkward taliking to him this way as I did not know him. >>

The better question would be why would a reputable dealer even take such a coin in trade or even try to sell it? >>

because some collectors buy problem coins so they can afford more details on the coins they buy. I know die marriage collectors (like me) often willingly purchase cleaned or dipped or other-problem coins that are rare die marriages

Amigo · October 18, 2008 8:24AM

I'm not making any judgement calls on Dick. Coin shows are full of sharks. I just wish to give my thumbs up as well to bidask. My son is 20, and that sum would represent some serious dough for him. Thank you for helping out a young adult and helping our hobby. I can guantee the 2750 means more to the 20yo than Dick. You did the right thing, kudos to you as it's also risky.

MidLifeCrisis · October 18, 2008 8:30AM

<< [The better question would be why would a reputable dealer even take such a coin in trade or even try to sell it? >>

because some collectors buy problem coins so they can afford more details on the coins they buy. I know die marriage collectors (like me) often willingly purchase cleaned or dipped or other-problem coins that are rare die marriages >>

Good answer. Most dealers look at this as just business. Dealers sell coins to all kinds of collectors. Some collectors don't care about cleaning...some don't care about other problems. Some only care about rarity; or the grade on the slab; or that they like the look of the coin. It's all about personal taste and catering to a wide range of customers.

I have sat at a dealer's table and gone through the coins they have for sale trying to decide what to buy and the dealer would sometimes say "You don't want that coin." Then they would take the time to show me why. But they still had the coin for sale and would happily sell it to someone else whom they knew didn't mind whatever problems it had.

I think the "young" collector should be thankful he had someone to point out his mistake. Maybe Dick tried to steer the guy away from it but he wouldn't listen. Maybe Dick was too busy with other customers. Then again, maybe Dick decided the customer could decide for himself. Sounds like this collector was an adult and, as such, was responsible for his own decisions.

Blackborder · October 18, 2008 8:32AM

<< The better question would be why would a reputable dealer even take such a coin in trade or even try to sell it?

I feel the same way.

Dick is far from being considered a predatory dealer.

Very strange set of circumstances. >>

I thought we were talking about a kid at first. Since the guy was an adult, the dealer probably figured he knew what he wanted.

Coinosaurus · October 18, 2008 8:34AM

<< The better question would be why would a reputable dealer even take such a coin in trade or even try to sell it? >>

Yes, someone finally asked the right question. Should all the dealers in the world take the POS coins in their inventories and throw them into the smelter out of the good will in their hearts? Please tell me, where should all the POS coins go? It is a fine thing to collect original umessed with coinage, but the reality is that most classic coins don't fall into this catagory, and they have to go somewhere.

Barndog · October 18, 2008 8:36AM

I know from personal experience that if a prospective buyer asks Dick of his opinion on a coin's problems, he'll tell the collector all about them. Just read Dick's descriptions on his website. He lists problems galore and even writes less-than-stellar comments about slabbed coins graded by "reputable TPGs"

Unknown · October 18, 2008 8:37AM

This content has been removed.

BAJJERFAN · October 18, 2008 8:57AM

<< 

<< The better question would be why would a reputable dealer even take such a coin in trade or even try to sell it? >>

Yes, someone finally asked the right question. Should all the dealers in the world take the POS coins in their inventories and throw them into the smelter out of the good will in their hearts? Please tell me, where should all the POS coins go? It is a fine thing to collect original umessed with coinage, but the reality is that most classic coins don't fall into this catagory, and they have to go somewhere. >>

Well I don't think you would find a push it, pull it, drag it kind of trade in junk car at a reputable Porsche dealership either. You don't expect to find POS coins at reputable dealers either; at least without the problem being disclosed. If it was a rare example with problems that would be one thing.

ajia · October 18, 2008 9:17AM

How many among us believe Dick paid 'no-problem' money for that problem coin?
Look at what problem coins are going for....

I wouldn't have a problem if the price paid by the newie was inline with what these problem coins go for, but it wasn't (as far as we know).
Was there full disclosure and still priced above the norm, or was the coin sold as a no-problem coin at a discount?

I suspect we'll know before too long.

pennyannie · October 18, 2008 9:34AM

I am sure Dick is a great guy, i have seen him at about 20 shows or more now. I have even bought a coin or 2 from he and his wife (she has been extremely friendly and pleasant every time) and tried to sell a coin or 2 without sucess. ( no issue there as a man has the right to to buy and pay what he wants, just as i can buy or pass) Every coin is not going to be PQ and somebody is going to buy it. WE ALL KNOW that Dick knows coins and he knew that coin was a POS. At 2750 i would call the sale a RIP as he would have discounted the daylights out of the coin from the seller.( based on observations from others dealing with him while i was present) Just because he has a killer collection and a inventory to match just not place him on a pedestal.

Barndog · October 18, 2008 9:40AM

<< How many among us believe Dick paid 'no-problem' money for that problem coin?
Look at what problem coins are going for....

I wouldn't have a problem if the price paid by the newie was inline with what these problem coins go for, but it wasn't (as far as we know).
Was there full disclosure and still priced above the norm, or was the coin sold as a no-problem coin at a discount?

I suspect we'll know before too long. >>

no problem XF per PCGS guide is $4750 and the collector paid less, evidenced by his exchange of that PCI coin for the ANACS VF-30 which Dick has listed on his site for $3650...and Dick allows plenty of wiggle room in his list prices.

BBN · October 18, 2008 9:42AM

when you are ready to make a $2700 purchase you should know damn well what you are buying. I commend you for correcting him, but I have to wonder why he was going to drop that kind of dime on a coin he knew little of.

metalmeister · October 18, 2008 10:12AM

Good job old boy.

Goldbully · October 18, 2008 10:15AM

<< 

<< The better question would be why would a reputable dealer even take such a coin in trade or even try to sell it?

I feel the same way.

Dick is far from being considered a predatory dealer.

Very strange set of circumstances. >>

I thought we were talking about a kid at first. Since the guy was an adult, the dealer probably figured he knew what he wanted. >>

I have to agree with you, based on what we know so far!!

RYK · October 18, 2008 12:00PM

In January, I paid $4350 for a 1799 S$1 in NGC XF-40 (which ended up in a PCGS VF-35 holder). My guess is that an XF-40 detail grade coin is probably worth near $2750. None of us have examined the coin, know if there was a variety premium, etc.

I have had few dealings with Dick (three total), and my gut feeling is that he is an honest and respectable person. He does carry an awful lot of "problem" coins (defined as those that one would expect not to slab at PCGS or NGC). My son and I browsed through his raw inventory of bust halves today and learned this lesson firsthand. It was a good opportunity to show my son what to look out for, and we ended up with two attractive, original raw pieces for his collection.

Broadstruck · October 18, 2008 12:14PM

Major Kudos bidask!

COALPORTER · October 18, 2008 12:15PM

<< In January, I paid $4350 for a 1799 S$1 in NGC XF-40 (which ended up in a PCGS VF-35 holder). My guess is that an XF-40 detail grade coin is probably worth near $2750. None of us have examined the coin, know if there was a variety premium, etc.

I have had few dealings with Dick (three total), and my gut feeling is that he is an honest and respectable person. He does carry an awful lot of "problem" coins (defined as those that one would expect not to slab at PCGS or NGC). My son and I browsed through his raw inventory of bust halves today and learned this lesson firsthand. It was a good opportunity to show my son what to look out for, and we ended up with two attractive, original raw pieces for his collection. >>

The only time I've seen Osburn's inventory has been at the Santa Clara show (which I understand he may not attend this year), and IMO, there were allot of coins someone could go very wrong with. Most of the slabbed coins topped out at MS62 and many were "iffy" and priced very expensive. I understand he's big on attributing dies, and that results in a ton of raw coins that , imo, were too be avoided. He's got volume for shure, but is by no means a high end dealer. In fact I told him I'm working on Trade dollars in ms63 and 64 and he gave me kind of a snarly look.

Coinosaurus · October 18, 2008 1:40PM

<< 

<< 

<< The better question would be why would a reputable dealer even take such a coin in trade or even try to sell it? >>

Yes, someone finally asked the right question. Should all the dealers in the world take the POS coins in their inventories and throw them into the smelter out of the good will in their hearts? Please tell me, where should all the POS coins go? It is a fine thing to collect original umessed with coinage, but the reality is that most classic coins don't fall into this catagory, and they have to go somewhere. >>

Well I don't think you would find a push it, pull it, drag it kind of trade in junk car at a reputable Porsche dealership either. You don't expect to find POS coins at reputable dealers either; at least without the problem being disclosed. If it was a rare example with problems that would be one thing. >>

You gotta be kidding. You can pick up a Heritage or Stack's catalog and find scrubbed or AT coins in PCGS and NCG holders. Are you suggesting that these two auction houses aren't reputable?

BAJJERFAN · October 18, 2008 1:49PM

I'd guess that DO is not one of those dealers who says that "I look at 10-20 coins for every one that I buy". I'm not at issue with him as I don't know him nor have I done any biz with him. In general there is nothing wrong with a reputable dealer selling problem coins as long as the problem/s is/are noted. I wouldn't expect a respected dealer to sell the same.

PQMorgans · October 18, 2008 2:39PM

FYI.... check out Dicks descriptions. I would have to say his descriptions are the best I have seen, There are others with good descriptions, but you can count on one hand the dealers that list in detail the problems with a coin like Dick does.

I do all my buying online and he is one of the best I have dealt with. And its not that I am a long time customer or that I know him personally. I bought one coin from him online and exchanged a number of emails before closing the deal. His description was 100%. The coin was in an ANACS XF45 and crossed to PCGS XF45.

Remember ......There are always 2 sides to a story. We have only heard one side here. I make no judgement as I was not there, but I do invite other to see his descriptions.

Dick Osborn's Site

RYK · October 19, 2008 12:57AM

<< 

<< The better question would be why would a reputable dealer even take such a coin in trade or even try to sell it? >>

Yes, someone finally asked the right question. Should all the dealers in the world take the POS coins in their inventories and throw them into the smelter out of the good will in their hearts? Please tell me, where should all the POS coins go? It is a fine thing to collect original umessed with coinage, but the reality is that most classic coins don't fall into this category, and they have to go somewhere. >>

I agree with your point. If the cleaned/damaged/scratched/etc. coins should simply be melted, who should take the financial hit on them? Many times, the intentional damage was done 20 owners ago or more, and unintentional damage may have been 100 years ago.

Let's turn this around a little bit. Let's say that the young man purchased a cleaned XF-details 1799 silver dollar a couple years ago. He has been reading on this forum, studying coins with a collector mentor, and learned that his prized coins is not what it ought to be. He goes to a show, approaches Dick Osburn's table, and asks Dick to buy the coin or take it on consignment, toward the purchase of a problem-free lower detail grade piece. What should Dick do in this scenario?

ttown · October 19, 2008 1:17AM

I'm sorry DO is very honest if you just ask him. If you tell him your want to cross it to PCGS or NGC he'll stear you right and give your money back on anything he sells once you tell him your plan. I've ask him many questions on his site about two or three coins of the same year from the description and he's advise me about 3 times he would wait to find the right coin. It's up to the buyer to ask the right questions, esp. if your in your 20's+ and looking right at all the coins. He has no idea if you can grade a coin or not. More times than not,even on this board, no one wants to act stupid and gives the impression they can grade. But I'm glad he was educated and did take some advice.

goose3 · October 19, 2008 1:33AM

There's an awful lot of BS and ASSumptions flying around in this thread or maybe I missed the part where the OP clearly overheard the ENTIRE exchange between Dick and the Adult prior to him handing Dick the 2750.00.

Some of you must be jonesing for a witchhunt and the comments about why a reputable dealer would carry such a coin....Get real.

BAJJERFAN · October 19, 2008 1:45AM

<< There's an awful lot of BS and ASSumptions flying around in this thread or maybe I missed the part where the OP clearly overheard the ENTIRE exchange between Dick and the Adult prior to him handing Dick the 2750.00.

Some of you must be jonesing for a witchhunt and the comments about why a reputable dealer would carry such a coin....Get real. >>

Yup and IF he overheard the entire thing its apparent that the dealer did not try to steer the kid away from the first coin; perhaps it was an oversight.. I have no problem with any dealer trying to sell problem coins as long as the problem is disclosed. I believe some dealers just wholesale that kind of stuff off rather than be associated with it. I'm not picking on DO other than he was the one named in the OP. I suppose the OP could have named the guy Dan Dealer, but he didn't. I don't know who should decide what gets melted and what doesn't. What does PCGS do with the mistakes that they buy back? Would anyone support a 50 cent per coin surcharge by the TPGs to go into a fund to purchase problem coins and destroy them? Then again I don't see those who advocate the banning of handguns go around and buy them up and destroy them.

Barry · October 19, 2008 1:58AM

As Goose pointed out this isn't a kid.

Any coin in a PCI Gold holder should be viewed with suspicion.

Dick is one of the good guys and it sure sounds like part of the story is missing.

mkman123 · October 19, 2008 2:06AM

bidask, great job! Nice of you to do what you did. If I was going to buy coins, I'd want you on my corner helping me out!!

The seller should have tried to educate the young man on the coins and explain which one was a better buy. A good transaction=more future transaction

BAJJERFAN · October 19, 2008 2:13AM

<< As Goose pointed out this isn't a kid.

Any coin in a PCI Gold holder should be viewed with suspicion.

Dick is one of the good guys and it sure sounds like part of the story is missing. >>

Any 80 year old who doesn't do his homework is a novice/kid as far as the discussion is concerned. It would be nice if the OP would come back and add any details that might be missing.

TomB · October 19, 2008 2:40AM

I think many people posting within this thread are heaping a substantial amount of garbage onto Dick that he does not deserve given what we have been told about this transaction and given Dick's website.

Jcarney · October 19, 2008 2:53AM

<< I'm wondering why Dick wouldn't have had the same conversation with the customer that you did. >>

Perhaps because he was the one selling the coin?

BAJJERFAN · October 19, 2008 3:23AM

<< There's an awful lot of BS and ASSumptions flying around in this thread or maybe I missed the part where the OP clearly overheard the ENTIRE exchange between Dick and the Adult prior to him handing Dick the 2750.00.

Some of you must be jonesing for a witchhunt and the comments about why a reputable dealer would carry such a coin....Get real. >>

I have my opinions about what a reputable dealer and a respectable dealer are [I don't consider them to be the same, but maybe you do and I did try to qualify my opinions] and I never stated anything like that as fact. Unless we hear from the OP to the contrary, I take the info given as the correct version and voice my opinions based on that. As I said I don't know DO other than having seen his name here.

At the silver dollar show I was looking at Dick Osborn's case when...

Comments

Leave a Comment