Growing your own monsters....

commoncents123 · September 4, 2008 1:47AM

If you buy a BU roll of Morgans...can you wrap them individually in toilet paper, put them in a warm place, and expect NT monsters in a few years?

19Lyds · September 4, 2008 2:04AM

Yes but Taco Bell napkins work better!

commoncents05 · September 4, 2008 2:05AM

I have a BU Roll of Morgans on the BST if you want to try...

-Paul

Coxe · September 4, 2008 2:21AM

Better to pair them up, stacking the two and wrap them. End rollers aren't toned on both sides. Not advocating this, but if you are playing with widgets.... I did this for a couple milkspotted ASEs. Doesn't make me a coin doctor, because they aren't coins and I have no plans to sell them and certainly not as something they are not.

commoncents123 · September 4, 2008 3:00AM

Hmm, I haven't been to taco bell in years. Are you talking about those brown looking napkins? I may have a burrito this afternoon

Coxe · September 4, 2008 3:02AM

Last I saw, they have white napkins now. Einstein Bagels has brown ones still I think.

commoncents123 · September 4, 2008 3:08AM

What about buying a 50 year old newspaper to use? Wonder if that would add some spice to it?

19Lyds · September 4, 2008 3:09AM

My Taco Bell still has the brown ones.

I'll pick you some up for say........................$5.00!

messydesk · September 4, 2008 3:09AM

<< If you buy a BU roll of Morgans...can you wrap them individually in toilet paper, put them in a warm place, and expect NT monsters in a few years? >>

I suppose, but sitting might be a little uncomfortable in the meanwhile.

rgCoinGuy · September 4, 2008 3:10AM

I know someone said Numismatic News works well also.

Coxe · September 4, 2008 3:22AM

<< 

<< If you buy a BU roll of Morgans...can you wrap them individually in toilet paper, put them in a warm place, and expect NT monsters in a few years? >>

I suppose, but sitting might be a little uncomfortable in the meanwhile. >>

LOL

commoncents123 · September 4, 2008 3:31AM

I'm starting to think if I do it I may try 10 different types of paper, 2 coins each. Now, would anyone care to let me borrow a roll of Morgans for a few years?

Consider it an investment.

ricko · September 4, 2008 5:26AM

<< If you buy a BU roll of Morgans...can you wrap them individually in toilet paper, put them in a warm place, and expect NT monsters in a few years? >>

I believe I am starting to see a trend... AT is now not only becoming acceptable, but sought after... amazing... and freely discussed... even as the TPG's attempt to curb doctoring, people are openly stating they will do it. I will never understand why people like corroded coins. Cheers, RickO

19Lyds · September 4, 2008 6:24AM

<< << If you buy a BU roll of Morgans...can you wrap them individually in toilet paper, put them in a warm place, and expect NT monsters in a few years? >>

I believe I am starting to see a trend... AT is now not only becoming acceptable, but sought after... amazing... and freely discussed... even as the TPG's attempt to curb doctoring, people are openly stating they will do it. I will never understand why people like corroded coins. Cheers, RickO >>

Folks don't like corroded coins Rick, they like purty colors!

The corrosion comes later. As a matter of fact, it will be interesting to note what these look like in say.............. 10 years. Will they continue to turn or will they stabilize once removed from the napkin?

fc · September 4, 2008 6:28AM

<< << If you buy a BU roll of Morgans...can you wrap them individually in toilet paper, put them in a warm place, and expect NT monsters in a few years? >>

I believe I am starting to see a trend... AT is now not only becoming acceptable, but sought after... amazing... and freely discussed... even as the TPG's attempt to curb doctoring, people are openly stating they will do it. I will never understand why people like corroded coins. Cheers, RickO >>

coin doctors. the forum is full of them.
ricko, you like to dip... thus you doctor coins also.

kettle pot black and all that.

:-)

Coxe · September 4, 2008 6:41AM

<< The corrosion comes later. As a matter of fact, it will be interesting to note what these look like in say.............. 10 years. Will they continue to turn or will they stabilize once removed from the napkin? >>

Coins have toned for decades in albums safely enough. The guys accelerating things with chemicals and ovens and the like create physically unstable surfaces.

I wouldn't advise this for real coins. Having fun with a couple ASEs and wouldn't hesitate to play with a couple irrecoverably cleaned slider real widget coins.

ricko · September 4, 2008 8:11AM

fc.... I see your point... however, dipping is NOT considered doctoring.... by the TPG's or any experts..... Technically speaking though, it is a 'surface adjustment'.

Cheers, RickO

Sunnywood · September 4, 2008 8:36AM

ricko, we are all familiar with your preference for Artificially White coins over beautiful naturally toned coins.

Never mind that dipping, "conservation," etc. involves removal of base metal atoms from the coin's surface. Talk about surface alteration !!

It isn't "corrosion" when there is a very thin, e.g. mono-molecular layer of thin film oxides and sulfides - unless of course you strip the toning layer off - THEN I would call the coin "corroded" !!! Down with "AW" coins, up with "NT" coins !!!

As someone who has completed a set of (I believe mostly naturally) toned Morgans, and who has paid (in some cases) large premiums to acquire these coins, I pay a lot of attention to the questions of NT vs AT, as well as looking at what is possible to achieve by artificial methods, most of which involve chemical processes effected and/or accelerated by heat and/or chemicals. While it is possible to tone coins artificially, and some guys have done a fairly good job (particularly the infamous doctor of nickels who has even been given his own verb by the pros), nobody has ever been able to duplicate the remarkable banded rainbow toning that is unique to the Morgans that spent decades stored in Mint bags in bank vaults. In addition, coins that have slowly and naturally acquired toning in albums, envelopes, and paper bank rolls have yet to be challenged by artificially produced specimens.

So don't waste your time trying to be a mad scientist in your kitchen. Just go out and find some of the many beautifully toned and reasonably priced coins out there with legitimate natural color.

Best,
Sunnywood

ricko · September 4, 2008 9:40AM

Sunnywood... I have seen your remarkable collection.. well, part of it anyway... and I have no objection to people collecting whatever they want... from beanie babies to toned morgans.. I prefer coins that look as if they just came from the mint.. I consider toning to be a degradation of the surface - which - technically speaking, it is. I like the luster, the reflection and the glow of fresh metal. I do not waste my time in the kitchen, although many do spend time concocting toning methodolgies. Just read this forum. And there are those that can duplicate your favored forms of toning...even the TPG's know this. I have seen the systems used... never mind where... but they range from the fairly simple to the complex. Although dipping is an accepted form of conservation, I prefer the undipped, untoned coins. I would dip to remove garbage from a very nice coin - and there are dipping solutions capable of removing that type of contaminant. So, while I certainly admire your collection, it is not my preference. Nor is it my preference to see coins that do not reflect either their original state or honest wear. I have investigated, and experimented enough to know that any observed phenomena on coins can be duplicated in the laboratory, as distressing as that may be to you and others. Cheers, RickO

Sunnywood · September 4, 2008 10:36AM

ricko, first, with respect to dipping, I too would distinguish between solvents such as isopropanol, acetone or xylene that may remove adherent contaminants, and chemical dips that are capable of dissociating oxides and sulfides or removing them completely. Solvent dipping, or ultrasonic cleaning in soap and warm water for that matter, are not doctoring and do not cause surface alteration. So I think we are in agreement there. Dipping to remove toning, however, creates an artificially altered surface. I continue to call such coins "artificially whitened" or AW, and I consider them just as bad as AT coins.

As for your assertion that any sort of toning can currently be reproduced in the lab, including for example banded rainbow toning such as occurred naturally on Morgans, I will continue to dispute this until someone proves it to me. It is not true to my knowledge, or to the knowledge of the top execs at the services that I have conferred with. Not only do I personally know some of the top doctors in the field, but I have 20+ years experience in metallurgy and chemistry, and I used to have a full-time metallurgical research lab at my business. I personally experimented on silver coins for many years. I had quite advanced equipment available to me as well, including things most coin doctors never get to play with, such as vacuum furnaces with chemical vapor deposition capability. The experience gave me an even greater appreciation for natural toning.

I would be most interested to talk with anyone who claims to be able to reproduce banded rainbow toning that indistinguishably mimics the unique and remarkable natural bag toning found on some Morgans. Until then, as someone who looks at every significant toned Morgan that comes to auction, and who has extensive experience in the lab, I will remain completely skeptical. I'm not saying one can't produce pretty colors ... but they are no match for the handiwork of nature over periods of many years, and do not appear natural to my eye.

I understand your admiration for "the luster, the reflection and the glow of fresh metal" (well spoken) ... however, 100+ year old coins are not fresh metal, and most of them acquire patination naturally. To remove it is unnatural. Just my opinion ...

Best,
Sunnywood

RotatedRainbows · September 4, 2008 10:40AM

<< 

<< << If you buy a BU roll of Morgans...can you wrap them individually in toilet paper, put them in a warm place, and expect NT monsters in a few years? >>

I believe I am starting to see a trend... AT is now not only becoming acceptable, but sought after... amazing... and freely discussed... even as the TPG's attempt to curb doctoring, people are openly stating they will do it. I will never understand why people like corroded coins. Cheers, RickO >>

coin doctors. the forum is full of them.
ricko, you like to dip... thus you doctor coins also.

kettle pot black and all that.

:-) >>

Whether you add color or remove it, it is all done for the same reason increasing eye appeal and adding value. A coin doctor is a coin doctor either way. As to the OP if you try to make your own they may tone but they will not be monsters unless you get a mint bag with the same sulfur content as the originals.

Sunnywood · September 4, 2008 11:46AM

Corrosion ...

commoncents123 · September 4, 2008 4:19PM

<< << If you buy a BU roll of Morgans...can you wrap them individually in toilet paper, put them in a warm place, and expect NT monsters in a few years? >>

I believe I am starting to see a trend... AT is now not only becoming acceptable, but sought after... amazing... and freely discussed... even as the TPG's attempt to curb doctoring, people are openly stating they will do it. I will never understand why people like corroded coins. Cheers, RickO >>

>>

Whether you add color or remove it, it is all done for the same reason increasing eye appeal and adding value. A coin doctor is a coin doctor either way. As to the OP if you try to make your own they may tone but they will not be monsters unless you get a mint bag with the same sulfur content as the originals. >>

I do want to be clear about something, this is just an experiment for my own entertainment and enjoyment. This isn't some attempt at trickery or to deceive anyone

Growing your own monsters....

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