(: A thought about toning - Chemistry Gurus Input Requested :)

SpaceMonkey · August 20, 2008 6:41AM

I am a lover of Toning and crust... the more original... the better for me.

but...

All of this is really at the expense of the coins future life. Because after enough time it WILL become black.

So maybe there is "some" credence to conservation... or really as i would prefer... slowing down nature...
in other words, do not strip the coin of it's original skin, just slow the process down and even stop it
if ever possible.

So the way I see it the only way to enjoy and be a good watch guard over our coins is to protect them...
not all that different from protecting the environment. Not too many even care because they
figure "hey, not my problem. Let the next generation figure it out"

So that is what I try to do whenever possible. My rarer coins are in double intercept shield boxes and are
temp/humidity controlled and verified every few weeks. I actually find this to be an enjoyable process...
Like a museum curator... and gives me a good feeling about protecting these coins for future custodians.

Now only if the next person would do the same.

Peace.

-sm

BECOKA · August 20, 2008 6:44AM

I completely agree, since I can't guarantee that I can do this I do mostly gold where it does not matter so much.

Unknown · August 20, 2008 6:46AM

This content has been removed.

SpaceMonkey · August 20, 2008 6:50AM

<< And forget about them turning black because it will take another 150 years or more. >>

so, in 150 years... everything unprotected would be black? Except of course for those in which a lineage of people protected them... and THOSE would be highly sought after and people would look on in amazement because they can''t understand how a coin so old could have been kept in such original condition.

I am sure there are several people here who could post examples of said coins and would get the same reaction... "wow"

-sm

SeattleSlammer · August 20, 2008 6:50AM

I tend to agree with Realone on this....but I think that 150 years is waaaaaay too short....more like two or three or four times that long.

Still, SM I respect your respect for those pretty toners.

SpaceMonkey · August 20, 2008 6:51AM

<< I tend to agree with Realone on this....but I think that 150 years is waaaaaay too short....more like two or three or four times that long.

Still, SM I respect your respect for those pretty toners.

>>

some examples... no way these would last another 100 years without getting darker unless protected.

-sm

BECOKA · August 20, 2008 6:53AM

So the point is to let them tone till attractive, have Mark take photos and then entomb them for protection.

Got it.

SpaceMonkey · August 20, 2008 6:55AM

<< So the point is to let them tone till attractive, have Mark take photos and then entomb them for protection.

Got it.

>>

well... that's one sure fire method

memories..... all alone in the Moooooooonnnnn light....

-sm

SeattleSlammer · August 20, 2008 6:55AM

...my time guesstimate was based on slabbed coins, not raw ones.......by the way, those are gorgeous examples

kryptonitecomics · August 20, 2008 6:59AM

You do know that if you take a toned coin out of the environment and away from the contaminants that caused it to tone in the first place....it will essentially stop toning? The toning is skin that protects the coin...it's not like rust that would continue to destroy the coin at a molecular level. So the natural rainbow toned coins that you see today could in theory be just as attractive and colorful in say 50 years and there are plenty of example out there to prove just that. You could even look at the colorful GSA Morgans as a perfect example.......we are talking at least 30 years+ since those were removed from bags and there are some really nice examples still around so once removed from the bags.....the toning ground to either a snails pace or stopped all together

This idea of every silver coin turning black has been perputuated long enough......if it's kept in a contaminant free environment, like you are proposing then your going to be just fine. Even coins in the newer slabs should be pretty safe for many decades to come

SpaceMonkey · August 20, 2008 7:01AM

<< You do know that if you take a toned coin out of the environment and away from the contaminants that caused it to tone in the first place....it will essentially stop toning? The toning is skin that protects the coin...it's not like rust that would continue to destroy the coin at a molecular level. So the natural rainbow toned coins that you see today could in theory be just as attractive and colorful in say 50 years and there are plenty of example out there to prove just that. You could even look at the colorful GSA Morgans as a perfect example.......we are talking at least 30 years+ since those were removed from bags and there are some really nice examples still around so once removed from the bags.....the toning ground to either a snails pace or stopped all together

This idea of every silver coin turning black has been perputuated long enough......if it's kept in a contaminant free environment, like you are proposing then your going to be just fine. Even coins in the newer slabs should be pretty safe for many decades to come

>>

is that really true? I was under the impressions that the "oxidation" or whatever will continue to eat away at the surface (very very slowly of course)... but none the less continues... and of course is accelerated depending on the environment it is kept in.

and hey... if i am nuts... I am sending all my intercepts back for a refund!

-sm

SeattleSlammer · August 20, 2008 7:08AM

given enough time, and we're talking a TON of time, even the slab will degrade, leaving the coin exposed...and so eventually that sucker is gonna turn black.....

SpaceMonkey · August 20, 2008 7:09AM

hey slammer...

i am glad you were not the head engineer on the Pyramids of Egypt!

-sm

SeattleSlammer · August 20, 2008 7:14AM

me too! with my luck i would have been one of the slaves hauling a giant uncut boulder in my sandals!

veryfine · August 20, 2008 7:19AM

I would think the best way to research this issue is to turn to ancient silver coinage. I'm assuming that many have been cleaned at some point, but some of them must be original.

So, do most "original" silver ancients have all black color?

Mesquite · August 20, 2008 7:26AM

That's why I have my slabs stored in these. I still have to swap them out every 10 years or so, but I suspect they work well. I have been considering replacing the 7070 with a IS type set album. Anyone got any feelings regarding IS?

Text

BECOKA · August 20, 2008 7:38AM

<< I would think the best way to research this issue is to turn to ancient silver coinage. I'm assuming that many have been cleaned at some point, but some of them must be original.

So, do most "original" silver ancients have all black color? >>

As noted earlier, if the silver is not around the contaminants that caused the toning, in some cases the toning acts as a protective layer and it will not turn black unless re-exposed to the bad air that caused the toning in the first place.

jsf · August 20, 2008 7:53AM

I do not believe a total switch to IS albums is required.

Why won't just buying the Dansco slip covers work? They have the protective coating on them.

SpaceMonkey · August 20, 2008 7:55AM

<< I do not believe a total switch to IS albums is required.

Why won't just buying the Dansco slip covers work? They have the protective coating on them. >>

in MY experience they are not extremely effective... I have used them on State Quarters & Nickels...
They had visible toning developing within a year. They were stored in controlled environments.

-sm

kryptonitecomics · August 20, 2008 8:21AM

If a coin is removed for the environment in which it began to tone......the toning process will either entirely stop or will slow down to the point that you probably won't notice a change in your lifetime. That's usually the big difference between AT and NT.....and AT coin most likely had something applied to the surface and this contaminant on the surface will continue to tone the coin so many AT coins get darker and darker as time goes on. NT coins which were just exposed to say outgassing from a cloth bag or paper roll...will stop toning once removed, if stored in some sort of sterile environment.

jsf · August 20, 2008 8:47AM

<< 

<< I do not believe a total switch to IS albums is required.

Why won't just buying the Dansco slip covers work? They have the protective coating on them. >>

in MY experience they are not extremely effective... I have used them on State Quarters & Nickels...
They had visible toning developing within a year. They were stored in controlled environments.

...

Where is the coating on IS albums? Isn't it on the slip cover, not the album? What is the difference between the two covers, IS and Dansco? This is what we should be examining, if that is the case, and using the better of course.

-sm >>

Hadleydog · August 20, 2008 9:15AM

If a coin is removed for the environment in which it began to tone......the toning process will either entirely stop or will slow down to the point that you probably won't notice a change in your lifetime.

Also as someone else pointed out, the thin layer of oxidation actually helps protect the coins original skin.

ricko · August 20, 2008 9:20AM

If you start with blast white coins, and store them properly, you will be able to enjoy the luster for the rest of your life.

Cheers, RickO

nicetoning42107 · August 20, 2008 1:27PM

<< If a coin is removed for the environment in which it began to tone......the toning process will either entirely stop or will slow down to the point that you probably won't notice a change in your lifetime. That's usually the big difference between AT and NT.....and AT coin most likely had something applied to the surface and this contaminant on the surface will continue to tone the coin so many AT coins get darker and darker as time goes on. NT coins which were just exposed to say outgassing from a cloth bag or paper roll...will stop toning once removed, if stored in some sort of sterile environment. >>

You hit it right on the head.

Also, dipping would help keep the blackness away. How do you think there are Capped and Seated coins out there that are white? And they are 150+ years old.

adamlaneus · August 20, 2008 2:20PM

Hm. It's not like I have much control over the environment in the Safety Deposit Box.

I would assume that it's a dry cold air-conditioned environment.

I sure hope that someone is not storing a block of sulfur or a strong oxidizer in a box nearby! Seems unlikely.

MrSpud · August 20, 2008 2:31PM

From reading up on the intercept technology, I believe that it is basically copper particles embedded into the cardboard-like polymer cellulose matrix that makes it work. Basically their technology seems to have evolved from having copper particles embedded into plastic bags that protected metal objects in the bags for about 1 year to the current particles embedded into a cardboard-like matrix with a few tricks to increase the surface reactivity of the copper so that it can protect metal objects in the holder or box for about 10 years or so. The copper particles are more reactive to tarnishing agents than the coins and the tarnishing agents get chemically complexed to the copper instead of the coins. The evolution from plastic bags to the cardboard-like matrix came out of an unexpected discovery that fibrous cardboard with a polka dot pattern of tarnishing absorbing agents worked better than completely surrounding a coin (actually any metal object that is being protected) with copper. They took it a step further and came up with a fibrous network that somehow channels the tarnishing agents to come into contact with the copper particles better. At least that's how I understand it to work.

I believe the Dansco slipcovers are very similar to intercept with copper particles imbedded in it, only the cardboard in the Dansco pages doesn't have the copper particles in it but the intercept pages as well as the slipcovers have them

MrSpud · August 20, 2008 2:38PM

Here's a link to intercept's patent in case you want to know more on how it works and what its made of Intercept Patent

jsf · August 20, 2008 2:44PM

good info.

I'd get lost in the IBM patent server back in the 90's. tmi!

halfhunter · August 20, 2008 7:28PM

If one really wants to stop any & all oxidation, vacuum packing works wonders.

Regards, John

baddogss · August 20, 2008 7:55PM

<< Here's a link to intercept's patent in case you want to know more on how it works and what its made of Intercept Patent >>

I wonder if putting thin sheets of scrap copper in your album or coin storage area would be as effective?
I've seen folks selling it on the bay pretty cheap.

DocMortar · August 20, 2008 8:33PM

The level of sophistication in restoration technology will be greatly enhanced 150 years from now. The ability to manipulate individual atoms will be discovered and fully functional. All collector coins will be made "original".The future is indeed "Bright". No need to worry just enjoy your coins.

(: A thought about toning - Chemistry Gurus Input Requested :)

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