<< <i>...... and allow the very kind of shielded-shilling that you advocate EBAY should embrace. >>
I don't recall Frank stating that eBay should 'embrace' this, only that eBay is the only one that does not allow it!
<< <i>Then why not PLAY by the RULES and set a reserve?
Or start the auction at the minimum one wants for an item? >>
I've tried .99 cent auctions only to ripped because there were no bidders and I've tried starting the auction at my reserve only to get no bidders. I've yet to set a 'reserve' auction because setting reserves costs the following fee's in addition to boosted listing fees:
Reserve Price Fee $0.01 - $199.99 = $2.00 $200.00 and up = 1% of Reserve Price (up to $50)
I am in no way advocating shilling but responding to the expensive proposition of starting the auction high or setting a reserve. Neither alternative will sell your item and simply costs the seller money which eBay is happy to relieve him of.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
"I am the owner of the listed item and I will or may bid on my own item."
NOBODY WOULD BID........EVER. >>
FWIW, eBay used to allow sellers one bid on their own item. That didn't seem to stop people from bidding too terribly much. Granted, they decided to discontinue that policy, but still... >>
Really?
<< <i>As a disclaimer, I don't think it's a particularly good idea to bid on your own items, even if it's allowed. >>
Why not? As a seller aren't you then able to protect your interests?
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>Why not? As a seller aren't you then able to protect your interests? >>
Because it pisses off bidders. I don't think pissing off bidders is a good long-term strategy, but I'm willing to concede that others might think differently.
My old coin club used to allow sellers to bid on their own items and I don't recall seeing any of the bidders get pissed off. Perhaps it was the atmoshpere?
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>You are apparently both ignorant AND arrogant. >>
Actually I am quite intelligent, inquisitive, and patient with people...up to a point. Gets pretty old being called stupid or crooked by anonymous people, who send PMs that they are going to RUIN ME.
<< <i>You refuse to see the difference between an illegal action by a shill and a lawful action by an owner disclosing that he will place a bid on his own item in a regulated public auction.
Shilling is a CRIME. Read your own Texas statutes, before you end up on the wrong side of the law; or worse, encourage someone else to break the law with your ridiculous and terrible advice. >>
So something that's not a crime if it's announced becomes a crime if it was not announced? Actually it would just be failure to make an announcement, which might get the auctioneer a warning letter. Very few auctions are no reserve, so the announcement that the consignor or his agent may participate is preprinted in most boilerplates. That right comes AUTOMATICALLY with any auctions that have reserves or minimum bids, because the consignor has control over whether a bid is acceptable or not. Whether through an direct bid (what ebay calls shilling) a book bid, an agent, a minimum, a reserve, the owner has a hand in the selling price. A lot can even be withdrawn during the auction, before the hammer falls, if the seller feels it isn't bringing enough money. Imagine that! The law allows me to stop the auction if my client is going to lose money, because I am supposed to MAKE MONEY for my client!
<< <i>Your "real estate analogy" is just plain stupid, stupid, stupid. >>
Actually quite appropriate, since Realtors and auctioneers both make their livings by charging property owners a commission to sell property, have a duty to be fair to all parties, but with a primary legal duty to the owner that they represent, must be licensed and navigate a pretty long list of rules and regulations.
<< <i> Decades ago, when the statutes that enable the contents of the "Green Book" were being put together in Austin, many crooked and dumb auctioneers lobbied their legislators to "waive discolsure provisions" and allow the very kind of shielded-shilling that you advocate EBAY should embrace. Their primary argument was "we got this here fiduciary duty thing and we gotta get all we can." Happily, most of the elected officials are not as backward and corrupt as some of their constituents are. >>
This really sets off the BS detector. You are just making this stuff up, including the "Dukes of Hazzard" accents. Auctioneers have been licensed in Texas only since 1991, but have always had to follow general business rules. But the auction regulations are made not by legislators, but by a board appointed by the governor. If anything, these regulatory agencies in Texas are considered too cozy with the businesses they regulate, and prone to codify status quo.
<< <i>I know many honest, smart and trustworthy auctioneers. ONE thing they all have in common: They KNOW shill bidding is a CRIME in every regulated jurisdiction. YOU are advocating shill-bidding on EBAY; maybe not because you are crooked, but because you are just too thick-headed to actually understand the law and rules that you claim expertise in. >>
If you mean shill bidding as a stooge planted on the auction floor to run up prices, certainly unethical and could result in civil fines and loss of license, as well as irreparable damage to the auctioneer's repuation. But as ebay defines it -- bids from the owner, or his family, or friends, or employees, or anyone with "special knowlege" -- as if someone willing to check out an item in person becomes ineligible to bid on it -- that's just an ebay rule. And WHEN did I advocate shill bidding on ebay?
<< <i>Good thing you have a BS from UTA. Something to fall back on when your own public pronouncements convince folks that bidding on your auctions might be hazardous. >>
Odd that the people who attend real coin auctions - ANA, Stack's, Heritage, know that everything I have said is true. Hey, since you are such a fan of full disclosure I am sure you are willing to share with us your real name, city, website, ebay ID, education, experience, right?
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< You are apparently both ignorant AND arrogant. >>
Actually I am quite intelligent, inquisitive, and patient with people...up to a point. Gets pretty old being called stupid or crooked by anonymous people, who send PMs that they are going to RUIN ME.
//////////////////////////////
So, I can add LIAR to the names you claim I "called you?"
I have never PMd you, AND you know it.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
"<< Decades ago, when the statutes that enable the contents of the "Green Book" were being put together in Austin, many crooked and dumb auctioneers lobbied their legislators to "waive discolsure provisions" and allow the very kind of shielded-shilling that you advocate EBAY should embrace. Their primary argument was "we got this here fiduciary duty thing and we gotta get all we can." Happily, most of the elected officials are not as backward and corrupt as some of their constituents are. >>"
frankcoins responded..........
"This really sets off the BS detector. You are just making this stuff up, including the "Dukes of Hazzard" accents. Auctioneers have been licensed in Texas only since 1991, but have always had to follow general business rules. But the auction regulations are made not by legislators, but by a board appointed by the governor. If anything, these regulatory agencies in Texas are considered too cozy with the businesses they regulate, and prone to codify status quo. "
//////////////////////////////////////////////
storm strikes back......
You really are an empty headed thing. You want to argue about the law as though it was matter of opinion.
The "Green Book" is a compilation of laws "affecting auctioneers" in your state. MANY of those laws have been on the books for a century. The worst members of your "profession" were very succesful at blocking efforts to achieve consumer protection for MANY decades; until, as you note the early 1990s.
I know ALOT about the history of commissions in your state. You seem not to even accept that all the "power" held by those bodies is granted by state/county lawmakers.
Arguing with you is like to talking to an empty shoe; not bright.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
<< <i><< You are apparently both ignorant AND arrogant. >>
Actually I am quite intelligent, inquisitive, and patient with people...up to a point. Gets pretty old being called stupid or crooked by anonymous people, who send PMs that they are going to RUIN ME.
//////////////////////////////
So, I can add LIAR to the names you claim I "called you?"
I have never PMd you, AND you know it. >>
When did I say YOU did it?
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
You really are an empty headed thing. You want to argue about the law as though it was matter of opinion. >>
Actually that's nearly correct. That's why there are lawyers, judges and juries.
Also: United States Court of Appeals for the District of Maryland: "We recognize, as appellants urge, the undisputed power of the jury to acquit, even if its verdict is contrary to the law as given by the judge, and contrary to the evidence. This is a power that must exist as long as we adhere to the general verdict in criminal cases, for the courts cannot search the minds of the jurors to find the basis upon which they judge. If the jury feels that the law under which the defendant is accused, is unjust, or that exigent circumstances justified the actions of the accused, or for any reason which appeals to their logic of passion, the jury has the power to acquit, and the courts must abide by that decision." (US vs Moylan, 417 F 2d 1002, 1006 (1969)).
<< <i>The "Green Book" is a compilation of laws "affecting auctioneers" in your state. MANY of those laws have been on the books for a century. >>
You DID see the disclaimer:
THIS COMPILATION IS NOT AN OFFICIAL PUBLICATION OF THE STATE OF TEXAS OR ANY STATE AGENCY AND IS NOT INTENDED AS LEGAL ADVICE. IT IS INTENDED AS GENERAL INFORMATION RESOURCE AND ITS ACCURACY OR COMPLETENESS ARE NOT GUARANTEED. AN ATTEMPT HAS BEEN MADE TO COMPILE ALL STATUTES AND REGULATIONS PROMULGATED BY THE STATE OF TEXAS IN EFFECT AS OF SEPTEMBER 1, 2003. ADDITIONALLY, CERTAIN FEDERAL STATUTES AND REGULATIONS HAVE BEEN INCLUDED AS WELL. USE OF THIS RESOURCE IS AT YOUR OWN RISK AND YOUR USE OF IT CONSTITUTES AN AGREEMENT NOT TO HOLD THE STATE OF TEXAS, THE TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF LICENSING AND REGULATION OR THE TEXAS AUCTIONEER’S ASSOCIATION, THEIR OFFICERS, DIRECTORS, ATTORNEYS, AGENTS, REPRESENTATIVES OR EMPLOYEES LIABLE FOR ANY CONSEQUENCE OF ITS USE.
<< <i>The worst members of your "profession" were very succesful at blocking efforts to achieve consumer protection for MANY decades; until, as you note the early 1990s. >>
You do know that putting a word in quotes makes it into an insult...like "Doctor" Laura, "Reverend" Jessie Jackson, or "President" Bush
There is just not a lot of consumer protection to be found in the auction format. Most are AS IS, WHERE IS, CASH ONLY, NO EXCHANGE, NO WARRANTY, NO REFUNDS, ALL SALES FINAL
Licensing of auctioneers is probably a good idea, but I understand the resentment of some of the old timers who have been in the business for 50 years and then are required to take one weekend a year to go to Austin and pay $200 to take a test to prove they know auction laws and procedures. And he has to hire another auctioneer to call bids at his own firm, because only a licensed auctioneer can call bids, even though proper cataloging and appraisals, arranging the venue and advertising, making sure the buyers pay for and receive the correct lots, and that consignors are promptly paid are all equally or more important than bid calling.
<< <i>I know ALOT about the history of commissions in your state. You seem not to even accept that all the "power" held by those bodies is granted by state/county lawmakers. >>
ALOT isn't a word, but if you mean A LOT you ought to know that in Texas, counties have no lawmakers and no authority to create ordinaces.
Who did you say you are, again?
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>there is ZERO difference between an $100 shill bid and a $100 reserve
The difference is that a bidder who is unsure of the value of an item is more likely to be influenced by another bidder's bid than by a reserve.
Of course, in an ideal world everyone would know what everything is worth and this would be a moot point. But then, we wouldn't need auctions, would we? >>
As long as a listing is accurate and not deceptive I would guess that the seller has no obligation to look out for the interests of an uninformed/underinformed bidder/buyer. Most listings run at least 7 days so thats plenty of time to ask questions, do your homework and check out the price guides. Buying/bidding on an item solely because certain other individuals are doing the same is very foolish. If you bid on a certain Morgan dollar just because you see that morganmanna is bidding on it too, well thats just nutz.
For the record, we have NEVER used shill bidders...and NEVER advocated that anyone else do so or violate ebay's rules. Bochiman and Russ, for some reason, seem to delight in misrepresenting our position.
But we have unpleasantly been accused of shill bidding when our B&M store starting selling on ebay, we mailed instructions to our 1500 member bid board list on how to sign up for ebay. Almost all of these were people in our city, so we have forever been "plagued" by a lot of loyal local repeat customers, but constant complaints against us by the 'coin posse" types which managed to get us shut down a few times since 1998 thankfully have ceased since bidder names are now hidden.
Ebay also tried to claim that we could no longer contact our customer database going back to 1966 if they had bought a SINGLE item from us on ebay..that all further contact was prohibited and all future sales to that person must be through ebay only because we were prohibited from bothering "ebay's customers." !!!
So our knowlege of wherether owners bidding on their own items is a crime or not comes not only from my auction law training, but about $5000 worth of research on the laws done by our attorney, and the staff of the Texas Coin Dealers Assoc.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
Let me get this straight in another context if I may about the .."Shill".. The sweet little innocent Girl Scout is selling her cookies and her big ole uncle $$ Big Bucks buys 5,000 boxes and the little minx sets a new record for sales. Frank says it's OK .. and Storm says it's a Federal crime... I say the.. "litle blitch got a new patch for her cookies".........
<< <i>Ebay also tried to claim that we could no longer contact our customer database going back to 1966 if they had bought a SINGLE item from us on ebay..that all further contact was prohibited and all future sales to that person must be through ebay only because we were prohibited from bothering "ebay's customers." !!! >>
This has got to be one of the most ignorant things to come out of eBay that I've ever heard!
Does this imply that I cannot sell to somone that lives in my town? Better yet, does this imply that folks who have purchased from me on the BST, that I communicate with on these forums either through threads or PM's, cannot bid on my eBay auctions? Especially since I consider a lot of them 'friends'?
Have my friends now become shills by proxy?
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< Ebay also tried to claim that we could no longer contact our customer database going back to 1966 if they had bought a SINGLE item from us on ebay..that all further contact was prohibited and all future sales to that person must be through ebay only because we were prohibited from bothering "ebay's customers."
This would prevent B&M dealers from selling to walk-ins.. since they may have purchased from their ebay sales (if they did sell on ebay)... how would one distinguish? Ridiculous.
As to the original question... if you are addressing 'pure' ethics... then it is unethical to not report a violation you are aware of. Cheers, RickO
<< <i>Ebay also tried to claim that we could no longer contact our customer database going back to 1966 if they had bought a SINGLE item from us on ebay..that all further contact was prohibited and all future sales to that person must be through ebay only because we were prohibited from bothering "ebay's customers." !!! >>
1966...!!! E-Bay....!!...What the Hell is E-Bay....!!!!!!....
I think the point that Andy made was right on target but nobody saw it as they were looking up at the bombs flying everywhere.
IMO- Shill bidding is not the same as placing a reserve. Whether or not it is illegal, I don't know or care... to me it is unethical. I prefer to spend my money where ethics remain in tact; although these bastions of hope are few and far between.
Received this anonyomous, non-reply-able email today:
Frank,
I have collected ancient and medieval coins for well over a decade. I have been fortunate to be able to put together a very respectable and valuable collection.
I am now starting to collect US coins. Just as I had to do with ancient coins I am trying to learn who are the good guys to buy from.
"What if you paid a Realtor to sell your house, expecting them to earn their commission by getting you the best price.
The house sells for $200,000, and when the Realtor hands you the check, she says "Our office manager wanted your house and would have paid $250,000, but we have a rule against it. "
Frank - The difference is that the office manager actually WANTED the house. A shill bidder does NOT want the house. He just wants to ARTIFICIALLY increase the price that the buyer has to pay.
And on eBay the seller should just be up front and post a reserve instead of using shill bidders.
The fact that you condone shill bidding tells me a lot about you. You have lost my respect.
Therefore I will NEVER buy ANY coins from you. You have lost a LIFETIME of sales.
And don't say that you do not care, because you know that you do.
You will NEVER hear from me again.
-------------
Of course this discussion does not defend shill bidding on ebay, which is not allowed, but rather ebay's policy of painting AS SHILL BIDDERS people who indeed want the item, and want to buy it in a legitimate transaction. Friends, family, roommates, employees, employers, and "anyone who may have information about the item not available to the general public" is considered a shill bidder by ebay. Indeed, total strangers at coin shows using the venue's wireless internet have even been accused of being "shill bidders" because the IP addresses match, and there is absolutely no appeal procedure.
Our example compared someone in a Realtor's office who wanted to pay more for the house-- and someone working for an ebay drop off store who acturally wanted to buy the item at the highest price, but is banned from doing so and considered a "shill bidder" by ebay. That is why most auctioneers do not (or no longer) place consigned items on ebay, and so many drop off stores have closed. The auction house risks losing their ebay account for not prohibiting bid interaction where each consignor's "circle of friends and family" might inadvertantly bid on the item, since there is no method to identify what becomes a "Six degress of Kevin Bacon" game involving thousands of people.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
I found a photo for the "EBAY police" who reside on this forum.
Advanced collector of BREWERIANA. Early beer advertising (beer cans, tap knobs, foam scrapers, trays, tin signs, lithos, paper, etc)....My first love...U.S. COINS!
Wow! I can't believe I actually read this entire thread.
FWIW, here's my humble 2c worth.
Everyone (I'm reasonably sure) has seen a certain large Auction venue where 2 bids have been placed yet "next bid meets reserve". Not too terribly difficult to see what is going on here, now is it? People, however, still flock to said venue AND also agree to pay "Buyer's Fee" and S/H.
There is yet another venue ( BOTH NAMES PURPOSELY WITHHELD as there is NO intent to defame anyone) in which bids are at the critical point (sometimes early on) thereby forcing bidders to decide whether or not to "pull the trigger" knowing full well that what has been mentioned time & again here is more than likely going on as ALL bids/ bidders remain totally obscure & anonymous. Again, despite alll this people will continue to go to and take part in these auctions. No one complains even knowing that despite a return privilege there is a "restocking fee".
It IS True that there was a time that ebay permitted sellers to bid on their own items .... It was then discovered that funds could be generated for "the company" by discontinuing such activity and creating the placement of reserves.
Ebay is about ebay/ for ebay. Ebay is a veritable minefield, affording buyers very little if any safety except for PayPal and the ability to protect THEMSELVES from Fraud by paying via PayPal AND the usage of credit cards. (On major purchases I think it safe to say that most here look at a seller's track record, longevity and Return Options - which makes perfect sense). It is wise to protect oneself by paying with a credit card thereby FORCING sellers to comply with PayPal guidelines or risk having their wares stolen and also made to return bidders' funds - if they do not.
They (ebay) have made it abundantly clear that they are NOT the auction house .... only the "vehicle" for folks to offer their wares to the world. As such, they have their own rules and bottom line IS - if sellers are going to use their venue they WILL abide by these rules for sellers.
Contrary to the flawed logic of many a would be con man, if violations to said sellers' agreement are blatantly flagrant & numerous, thereby causing innocent buyers "considerable & very real monetary damages" - ebay's only recourse is to suspend or revoke said sellers' privileges. Lately, to their credit, ebay HAS become much more pro-active in protecting would be buyers but it is still very dangerous. Too many sellers look to "off" low grade/ problematic items on people and this is not right!
Now, to the topic at hand. Whether or not owners bidding on their own wares is acceptable practice in other auction venues, on ebay IT IS NOT.
That IS the Bottom Line as applicable specifically to ebay. If you are going to utilize their venue you/ we, must all abide by their regulations - plain & simple. What applies to other auctions DOES NOT apply to ebay!
It appears that the "crooks" have found an eBay loop hole; setting up a separate account(s) and bidding on their your own coins. Here's one of my last letters to eBay regarding Shill Bidding and their answer:
What did you mean when you wrote the following?
"Thank you very much for providing even more detailed information regarding your concerns.
I have carefully reviewed your newly provided information and we will take into account as we review the matter going forward. Again, due to privacy restrictions, we cannot provide you with any details regarding the outcome of our investigation."
You wrote the above in response to XXXXXXXXXXXi's letter to me, showing that she uses her(eBay known) Coin Club members to bid in her auctions. The same members win the exact same pieces over and over again, until a "non-member" wins the piece. Her members NEVER win a "reserve auction"; the "reserves" are reset to just above the members top bid....
Thanks for the link(http://pages.ebay.com/help/tp/programs-investigations.html), but I know it well and have even taken the Tutorial on shill bidding; THAT'S the reason that I'm reporting.... Coin Club members would HAVE inside information.... Other than "shill bidding", there is now way to be bidding on the exact same pieces that you've already won.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- eBay's response:
While I maintain that there is a possibility of gain to be had for being involved in a group or organization when trading with each other, in and of itself this is not a violation of eBay policy. Many of our members belong to groups, organizations, clubs, chat boards, or are even members of a smaller local community. In the end it is not this one thing that eBay looks at, but the combined information that shows whether or not we feel that shill bidding is taking place.
I guarantee to you that if we felt that there was shill bidding in a given situation, we would take action. The even playing field that you discuss comes into play here as we would take action in a confirmed case no matter the status of the member being reported, no matter how long they had been with the company, and no matter how much business they bring to our site. The policies are each handled on an even basis and all members are treated the same within each policy. The same investigative tools and procedures are used and the same information is considered.
I would encourage you to continue to send any new information to us if you feel that this member is engaging in shill bidding. We will gladly review the situation again and if we feel that there is a violation of eBay policy, we will take immediate action. ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Note that the response didn't address (Other than "shill bidding", there is now way to be bidding on the exact same pieces that you've already won....). I have sent in dozens of doccumented reports of Shills bidding on the exact same coin, won in privious auctions and eBay doesn't care; my reports only dealt with certified pieces(same slab #'s), so that there could be no doubt..... eBay does nothing??
All in all, it WON'T get better and WON'T change unless we report it; so, if you SEE something, DO something.
Comments
Little did I know I'd stuck my head into an apparent flame war.
Well, I'll be goin', now. See y'all.
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
<< <i>...... and allow the very kind of shielded-shilling that you
advocate EBAY should embrace. >>
I don't recall Frank stating that eBay should 'embrace' this, only that eBay is the only one that does not allow it!
<< <i>Then why not PLAY by the RULES and set a reserve?
Or start the auction at the minimum one wants for an item? >>
I've tried .99 cent auctions only to ripped because there were no bidders and I've tried starting the auction at my reserve only to get no bidders.
I've yet to set a 'reserve' auction because setting reserves costs the following fee's in addition to boosted listing fees:
Reserve Price Fee
$0.01 - $199.99 = $2.00
$200.00 and up = 1% of Reserve Price (up to $50)
I am in no way advocating shilling but responding to the expensive proposition of starting the auction high or setting a reserve. Neither alternative will sell your item and simply costs the seller money which eBay is happy to relieve him of.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>2.
"I am the owner of the listed item and I will or may bid on my own item."
NOBODY WOULD BID........EVER. >>
FWIW, eBay used to allow sellers one bid on their own item. That didn't seem to stop people from bidding too terribly much. Granted, they decided to discontinue that policy, but still... >>
Really?
<< <i>As a disclaimer, I don't think it's a particularly good idea to bid on your own items, even if it's allowed. >>
Why not? As a seller aren't you then able to protect your interests?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Why not? As a seller aren't you then able to protect your interests? >>
Because it pisses off bidders. I don't think pissing off bidders is a good long-term strategy, but I'm willing to concede that others might think differently.
The name is LEE!
Free Trial
<< <i>You are apparently both ignorant AND arrogant. >>
Actually I am quite intelligent, inquisitive, and patient with people...up to
a point. Gets pretty old being called stupid or crooked by anonymous
people, who send PMs that they are going to RUIN ME.
<< <i>You refuse to see the difference between an illegal action by a
shill and a lawful action by an owner disclosing that he will place
a bid on his own item in a regulated public auction.
Shilling is a CRIME. Read your own Texas statutes, before you
end up on the wrong side of the law; or worse, encourage someone
else to break the law with your ridiculous and terrible advice. >>
So something that's not a crime if it's announced becomes a crime if
it was not announced? Actually it would just be failure to make an
announcement, which might get the auctioneer a warning letter.
Very few auctions are no reserve, so the announcement that the
consignor or his agent may participate is preprinted in most boilerplates.
That right comes AUTOMATICALLY with any auctions that have reserves
or minimum bids, because the consignor has control over whether a
bid is acceptable or not. Whether through an direct bid (what ebay calls
shilling) a book bid, an agent, a minimum, a reserve, the owner has a hand in
the selling price. A lot can even be withdrawn during the auction, before
the hammer falls, if the seller feels it isn't bringing enough money. Imagine
that! The law allows me to stop the auction if my client is going to lose money,
because I am supposed to MAKE MONEY for my client!
<< <i>Your "real estate analogy" is just plain stupid, stupid, stupid. >>
Actually quite appropriate, since Realtors and auctioneers both
make their livings by charging property owners a commission
to sell property, have a duty to be fair to all parties, but with
a primary legal duty to the owner that they represent, must
be licensed and navigate a pretty long list of rules and
regulations.
<< <i> Decades ago, when the statutes that enable the contents of the
"Green Book" were being put together in Austin, many crooked
and dumb auctioneers lobbied their legislators to "waive discolsure
provisions" and allow the very kind of shielded-shilling that you
advocate EBAY should embrace. Their primary argument was "we
got this here fiduciary duty thing and we gotta get all we can."
Happily, most of the elected officials are not as backward and
corrupt as some of their constituents are. >>
This really sets off the BS detector. You are just making this stuff
up, including the "Dukes of Hazzard" accents. Auctioneers have
been licensed in Texas only since 1991, but have always had
to follow general business rules. But the auction regulations are
made not by legislators, but by a board appointed by the governor.
If anything, these regulatory agencies in Texas are considered too
cozy with the businesses they regulate, and prone to codify status
quo.
<< <i>I know many honest, smart and trustworthy auctioneers. ONE
thing they all have in common: They KNOW shill bidding is a CRIME
in every regulated jurisdiction. YOU are advocating shill-bidding
on EBAY; maybe not because you are crooked, but because you
are just too thick-headed to actually understand the law and rules
that you claim expertise in. >>
If you mean shill bidding as a stooge planted on the auction
floor to run up prices, certainly unethical and could result in
civil fines and loss of license, as well as irreparable damage to
the auctioneer's repuation. But as ebay defines it -- bids from
the owner, or his family, or friends, or employees, or anyone with
"special knowlege" -- as if someone willing to check out an item
in person becomes ineligible to bid on it -- that's just an ebay
rule. And WHEN did I advocate shill bidding on ebay?
<< <i>Good thing you have a BS from UTA. Something to fall back on when
your own public pronouncements convince folks that bidding on your
auctions might be hazardous. >>
Odd that the people who attend real coin auctions - ANA, Stack's, Heritage,
know that everything I have said is true. Hey, since you are such a fan of full disclosure
I am sure you are willing to share with us your real name, city, website, ebay ID,
education, experience, right?
Actually I am quite intelligent, inquisitive, and patient with people...up to
a point. Gets pretty old being called stupid or crooked by anonymous
people, who send PMs that they are going to RUIN ME.
//////////////////////////////
So, I can add LIAR to the names you claim I "called you?"
I have never PMd you, AND you know it.
<< <i>
Frank is masterful at creating the appearance of a logical argument. >>
How do you create an appearance of a logical argument?
"<< Decades ago, when the statutes that enable the contents of the
"Green Book" were being put together in Austin, many crooked
and dumb auctioneers lobbied their legislators to "waive discolsure
provisions" and allow the very kind of shielded-shilling that you
advocate EBAY should embrace. Their primary argument was "we
got this here fiduciary duty thing and we gotta get all we can."
Happily, most of the elected officials are not as backward and
corrupt as some of their constituents are. >>"
frankcoins responded..........
"This really sets off the BS detector. You are just making this stuff
up, including the "Dukes of Hazzard" accents. Auctioneers have
been licensed in Texas only since 1991, but have always had
to follow general business rules. But the auction regulations are
made not by legislators, but by a board appointed by the governor.
If anything, these regulatory agencies in Texas are considered too
cozy with the businesses they regulate, and prone to codify status
quo. "
//////////////////////////////////////////////
storm strikes back......
You really are an empty headed thing. You want to argue about
the law as though it was matter of opinion.
The "Green Book" is a compilation of laws "affecting auctioneers"
in your state. MANY of those laws have been on the books for
a century. The worst members of your "profession" were very
succesful at blocking efforts to achieve consumer protection for
MANY decades; until, as you note the early 1990s.
I know ALOT about the history of commissions in your state. You
seem not to even accept that all the "power" held by those bodies
is granted by state/county lawmakers.
Arguing with you is like to talking to an empty shoe; not bright.
<< <i><< You are apparently both ignorant AND arrogant. >>
Actually I am quite intelligent, inquisitive, and patient with people...up to
a point. Gets pretty old being called stupid or crooked by anonymous
people, who send PMs that they are going to RUIN ME.
//////////////////////////////
So, I can add LIAR to the names you claim I "called you?"
I have never PMd you, AND you know it. >>
When did I say YOU did it?
<< <i>
As a disclaimer, I don't think it's a particularly good idea to bid on your own items, even if it's allowed. >>
It's not a good idea.
<< <i>
You really are an empty headed thing. You want to argue about
the law as though it was matter of opinion. >>
Actually that's nearly correct. That's why there are lawyers, judges and
juries.
Also: United States Court of Appeals for the District of Maryland: "We recognize, as appellants urge, the undisputed power of the jury to acquit, even if its verdict is contrary to the law as given by the judge, and contrary to the evidence. This is a power that must exist as long as we adhere to the general verdict in criminal cases, for the courts cannot search the minds of the jurors to find the basis upon which they judge. If the jury feels that the law under which the defendant is accused, is unjust, or that exigent circumstances justified the actions of the accused, or for any reason which appeals to their logic of passion, the jury has the power to acquit, and the courts must abide by that decision." (US vs Moylan, 417 F 2d 1002, 1006 (1969)).
<< <i>The "Green Book" is a compilation of laws "affecting auctioneers"
in your state. MANY of those laws have been on the books for
a century. >>
You DID see the disclaimer:
THIS COMPILATION IS NOT AN OFFICIAL PUBLICATION OF THE STATE OF TEXAS OR ANY STATE
AGENCY AND IS NOT INTENDED AS LEGAL ADVICE. IT IS INTENDED AS GENERAL
INFORMATION RESOURCE AND ITS ACCURACY OR COMPLETENESS ARE NOT GUARANTEED. AN
ATTEMPT HAS BEEN MADE TO COMPILE ALL STATUTES AND REGULATIONS PROMULGATED BY
THE STATE OF TEXAS IN EFFECT AS OF SEPTEMBER 1, 2003. ADDITIONALLY, CERTAIN FEDERAL
STATUTES AND REGULATIONS HAVE BEEN INCLUDED AS WELL. USE OF THIS RESOURCE IS AT
YOUR OWN RISK AND YOUR USE OF IT CONSTITUTES AN AGREEMENT NOT TO HOLD THE STATE
OF TEXAS, THE TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF LICENSING AND REGULATION OR THE TEXAS
AUCTIONEER’S ASSOCIATION, THEIR OFFICERS, DIRECTORS, ATTORNEYS, AGENTS,
REPRESENTATIVES OR EMPLOYEES LIABLE FOR ANY CONSEQUENCE OF ITS USE.
<< <i>The worst members of your "profession" were very
succesful at blocking efforts to achieve consumer protection for
MANY decades; until, as you note the early 1990s. >>
You do know that putting a word in quotes makes it into an insult...like
"Doctor" Laura, "Reverend" Jessie Jackson, or "President" Bush
There is just not a lot of consumer protection to be found in the auction
format. Most are AS IS, WHERE IS, CASH ONLY, NO EXCHANGE, NO WARRANTY, NO REFUNDS,
ALL SALES FINAL
Licensing of auctioneers is probably a good idea, but I understand the resentment of some of
the old timers who have been in the business for 50 years and then are required to take one weekend
a year to go to Austin and pay $200 to take a test to prove they know auction laws and procedures. And
he has to hire another auctioneer to call bids at his own firm, because only a licensed auctioneer can call bids, even
though proper cataloging and appraisals, arranging the venue and advertising, making sure the buyers pay for
and receive the correct lots, and that consignors are promptly paid are all equally or more important than bid
calling.
<< <i>I know ALOT about the history of commissions in your state. You
seem not to even accept that all the "power" held by those bodies
is granted by state/county lawmakers. >>
ALOT isn't a word, but if you mean A LOT you ought to know that
in Texas, counties have no lawmakers and no authority to create
ordinaces.
Who did you say you are, again?
<< <i>Let's just put Frank on the blocked sellers list and move on. >>
And to think I let you cherrypick my quadruple-row box of slabbed PCGS quarters at the TNA show a couple of
years ago
<< <i>there is ZERO difference between an $100 shill bid and a $100 reserve
The difference is that a bidder who is unsure of the value of an item is more likely to be influenced by another bidder's bid than by a reserve.
Of course, in an ideal world everyone would know what everything is worth and this would be a moot point. But then, we wouldn't need auctions, would we? >>
As long as a listing is accurate and not deceptive I would guess that the seller has no obligation to look out for the interests of an uninformed/underinformed bidder/buyer. Most listings run at least 7 days so thats plenty of time to ask questions, do your homework and check out the price guides. Buying/bidding on an item solely because certain other individuals are doing the same is very foolish. If you bid on a certain Morgan dollar just because you see that morganmanna is bidding on it too, well thats just nutz.
sell. I have sold many items using that method.
In the outside world owners bidding on items is allowed in certain venues.
In EBAY it is not, therefore I suggest the OP notify Ebay.
Steve
ebay's rules. Bochiman and Russ, for some reason, seem to delight in misrepresenting our position.
But we have unpleasantly been accused of shill bidding when our
B&M store starting selling on ebay, we mailed instructions to our 1500 member bid board list on how to sign up
for ebay. Almost all of these were people in our city, so we have forever been "plagued" by a lot of loyal local
repeat customers, but constant complaints against us by the 'coin posse" types which managed to get us shut down a
few times since 1998 thankfully have ceased since bidder names are now hidden.
Ebay also tried to claim that we could no longer contact our customer database going back to 1966 if
they had bought a SINGLE item from us on ebay..that all further contact was prohibited and all future sales
to that person must be through ebay only because we were prohibited from bothering "ebay's customers." !!!
So our knowlege of wherether owners bidding on their own items is a crime or not comes not only from my
auction law training, but about $5000 worth of research on the laws done by our attorney, and the staff of
the Texas Coin Dealers Assoc.
Also looking for VF-EF Seated halves.
Sell me your old auction catalogs...
The sweet little innocent Girl Scout is selling her cookies and her big ole uncle $$ Big Bucks buys 5,000 boxes and the little minx sets a new record for sales.
Frank says it's OK .. and Storm says it's a Federal crime...
I say the.. "litle blitch got a new patch for her cookies"....
<< <i>Ebay also tried to claim that we could no longer contact our customer database going back to 1966 if
they had bought a SINGLE item from us on ebay..that all further contact was prohibited and all future sales
to that person must be through ebay only because we were prohibited from bothering "ebay's customers." !!! >>
This has got to be one of the most ignorant things to come out of eBay that I've ever heard!
Does this imply that I cannot sell to somone that lives in my town? Better yet, does this imply that folks who have purchased from me on the BST, that I communicate with on these forums either through threads or PM's, cannot bid on my eBay auctions? Especially since I consider a lot of them 'friends'?
Have my friends now become shills by proxy?
The name is LEE!
they had bought a SINGLE item from us on ebay..that all further contact was prohibited and all future sales
to that person must be through ebay only because we were prohibited from bothering "ebay's customers."
This would prevent B&M dealers from selling to walk-ins.. since they may have purchased from their ebay sales (if they did sell on ebay)... how would one distinguish?
Ridiculous.
As to the original question... if you are addressing 'pure' ethics... then it is unethical to not report a violation you are aware of. Cheers, RickO
<< <i>Ebay also tried to claim that we could no longer contact our customer database going back to 1966 if
they had bought a SINGLE item from us on ebay..that all further contact was prohibited and all future sales
to that person must be through ebay only because we were prohibited from bothering "ebay's customers." !!! >>
1966...!!! E-Bay....!!...What the Hell is E-Bay....!!!!!!....
<< <i>"...When they decided to shill on a scale like this, they have taken the full risk and we should exact the full justice...."
///////////////////////////
Absolutely.
Any crime that causes a lack of confidence in the market
harms EVERY collector/investor.
I would prefer capital-punishment for offenders, but prison will have to do. >>
I couldn't agree with you more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So did Al Gore create the internet for ebay?
Also looking for VF-EF Seated halves.
Sell me your old auction catalogs...
I think the point that Andy made was right on target but nobody saw it as they were looking up at the bombs flying everywhere.
IMO- Shill bidding is not the same as placing a reserve. Whether or not it is illegal, I don't know or care... to me it is unethical. I prefer to spend my money where ethics remain in tact; although these bastions of hope are few and far between.
The Beatles
Frank,
I have collected ancient and medieval coins for well over a decade. I have been fortunate to be able to put together a very respectable and valuable collection.
I am now starting to collect US coins. Just as I had to do with ancient coins I am trying to learn who are the good guys to buy from.
I happen to read your posts on this thread:
Thread Title: Question about Ethics....If you know something and do nothing.....
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=671739
where you defend shill bidders.
At one point you use this example:
"What if you paid a Realtor to sell your house, expecting them to earn their commission by getting you the best price.
The house sells for $200,000, and when the Realtor hands you the check, she says "Our office manager wanted your house
and would have paid $250,000, but we have a rule against it. "
Frank - The difference is that the office manager actually WANTED the house. A shill bidder does NOT want the house. He just wants to ARTIFICIALLY increase the price that the buyer has to pay.
And on eBay the seller should just be up front and post a reserve instead of using shill bidders.
The fact that you condone shill bidding tells me a lot about you. You have lost my respect.
Therefore I will NEVER buy ANY coins from you. You have lost a LIFETIME of sales.
And don't say that you do not care, because you know that you do.
You will NEVER hear from me again.
-------------
Of course this discussion does not defend shill bidding on ebay, which is not allowed, but rather ebay's policy of painting AS SHILL BIDDERS people who indeed want the item, and want to buy it in a legitimate transaction. Friends, family, roommates, employees, employers, and "anyone who may have information about the item not available to the general public" is considered a shill bidder by ebay. Indeed, total strangers at coin shows using the venue's wireless internet have even been accused of being "shill bidders" because the IP addresses match, and there is absolutely no appeal procedure.
Our example compared someone in a Realtor's office who wanted to pay more for the house-- and someone working for an ebay drop off store who acturally wanted to buy the item at the highest price, but is banned from doing so and considered a "shill bidder" by ebay. That is why most auctioneers do not (or no longer) place consigned items on ebay, and so many drop off stores have closed. The auction house risks losing their ebay account for not prohibiting bid interaction where each consignor's "circle of friends and family" might inadvertantly bid on the item, since there is no method to identify what becomes a "Six degress of Kevin Bacon" game involving thousands of people.
FWIW, here's my humble 2c worth.
Everyone (I'm reasonably sure) has seen a certain large Auction venue where 2 bids have been placed yet "next bid meets reserve". Not too terribly difficult to see what is going on here, now is it? People, however, still flock to said venue AND also agree to pay "Buyer's Fee" and S/H.
There is yet another venue ( BOTH NAMES PURPOSELY WITHHELD as there is NO intent to defame anyone) in which bids are at the critical point (sometimes early on) thereby forcing bidders to decide whether or not to "pull the trigger" knowing full well that what has been mentioned time & again here is more than likely going on as ALL bids/ bidders remain totally obscure & anonymous. Again, despite alll this people will continue to go to and take part in these auctions. No one complains even knowing that despite a return privilege there is a "restocking fee".
It IS True that there was a time that ebay permitted sellers to bid on their own items .... It was then discovered that funds could be generated for "the company" by discontinuing such activity and creating the placement of reserves.
Ebay is about ebay/ for ebay. Ebay is a veritable minefield, affording buyers very little if any safety except for PayPal and the ability to protect THEMSELVES from Fraud by paying via PayPal AND the usage of credit cards. (On major purchases I think it safe to say that most here look at a seller's track record, longevity and Return Options - which makes perfect sense). It is wise to protect oneself by paying with a credit card thereby FORCING sellers to comply with PayPal guidelines or risk having their wares stolen and also made to return bidders' funds - if they do not.
They (ebay) have made it abundantly clear that they are NOT the auction house .... only the "vehicle" for folks to offer their wares to the world. As such, they have their own rules and bottom line IS - if sellers are going to use their venue they WILL abide by these rules for sellers.
Contrary to the flawed logic of many a would be con man, if violations to said sellers' agreement are blatantly flagrant & numerous, thereby causing innocent buyers "considerable & very real monetary damages" - ebay's only recourse is to suspend or revoke said sellers' privileges. Lately, to their credit, ebay HAS become much more pro-active in protecting would be buyers but it is still very dangerous. Too many sellers look to "off" low grade/ problematic items on people and this is not right!
Now, to the topic at hand. Whether or not owners bidding on their own wares is acceptable practice in other auction venues, on ebay IT IS NOT.
That IS the Bottom Line as applicable specifically to ebay. If you are going to utilize their venue you/ we, must all abide by their regulations - plain & simple. What applies to other auctions DOES NOT apply to ebay!
"When in Rome ...."
JMHO, FWIW.
Very interesting thread BTW. Thanx SUMORADA.
edited - COMPLETELY FORGOT TO TYPE A WORD.
What did you mean when you wrote the following?
"Thank you very much for providing even more detailed information
regarding your concerns.
I have carefully reviewed your newly provided information and we will
take into account as we review the matter going forward. Again, due to
privacy restrictions, we cannot provide you with any details regarding
the outcome of our investigation."
You wrote the above in response to XXXXXXXXXXXi's letter to me, showing that she uses her(eBay known) Coin Club members to bid in her auctions. The same members win the exact same pieces over and over again, until a "non-member" wins the piece. Her members NEVER win a "reserve auction"; the "reserves" are reset to just above the members top bid....
Thanks for the link(http://pages.ebay.com/help/tp/programs-investigations.html), but I know it well and have even taken the Tutorial on shill bidding; THAT'S the reason that I'm reporting.... Coin Club members would HAVE inside information.... Other than "shill bidding", there is now way to be bidding on the exact same pieces that you've already won....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
eBay's response:
While I maintain that there is a possibility of gain to be had for being
involved in a group or organization when trading with each other, in and
of itself this is not a violation of eBay policy. Many of our members
belong to groups, organizations, clubs, chat boards, or are even members
of a smaller local community. In the end it is not this one thing that
eBay looks at, but the combined information that shows whether or not we
feel that shill bidding is taking place.
I guarantee to you that if we felt that there was shill bidding in a
given situation, we would take action. The even playing field that you
discuss comes into play here as we would take action in a confirmed case
no matter the status of the member being reported, no matter how long
they had been with the company, and no matter how much business they
bring to our site. The policies are each handled on an even basis and
all members are treated the same within each policy. The same
investigative tools and procedures are used and the same information is
considered.
I would encourage you to continue to send any new information to us if
you feel that this member is engaging in shill bidding. We will gladly
review the situation again and if we feel that there is a violation of
eBay policy, we will take immediate action.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Note that the response didn't address (Other than "shill bidding", there is now way to be bidding on the exact same pieces that you've already won....). I have sent in dozens of doccumented reports of Shills bidding on the exact same coin, won in privious auctions and eBay doesn't care; my reports only dealt with certified pieces(same slab #'s), so that there could be no doubt..... eBay does nothing??
All in all, it WON'T get better and WON'T change unless we report it; so, if you SEE something, DO something.
So many things are so wrong across the proverbial board that it's enough to
make most here just cash out & get out or put it in Park for a long, long time.
Too many red flags in way too many arenas have been hoisted.
Get your ducks in a row and be ready to hunker down. (JMHO - FWIW!)