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Question about Ethics....If you know something and do nothing.....
SUMORADA
Posts: 4,797 ✭
Too be more specific, I came across a situation where by accident found out a seller on ebay appears to be using a second ebay account to bid there own auctions, I'm not talking 1 or 2 auctions, I'm talking a lot of auctions and people are getting ripped, when I first saw this my thought was to just move on and ignore it, as you can probably tell its bugging the hell out of me.
opinions ?
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Comments
If its alot of auctions and people are getting ripped off, out them.
Also looking for VF-EF Seated halves.
Sell me your old auction catalogs...
(Edited due to poor grammar.)
Usually, the two concepts mesh pretty well.
If I knew that somebody was doing what you describe, and thought
I could prove it, my first call would be to the white-collar crime guys
at the FBI in San Francisco.
Shill-Bidding is a Federal crime. Even on little ole EBAY.
if he said it, it must be true.
Now me, on the other hand. Well, I have ethics and it would bother me and I would likely mention it.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
See: title 18 of the United States Code section 1343:
"Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both."
Example of a CASE where indictments resulted.
Bottom line: Even though some here have done it and others here have protected &/or colluded with them, SHILL BIDDERS ARE SCUM!
my early American coins & currency: -- http://yankeedoodlecoins.com/
braddick
you have a pm......
<< <i>braddick
you have a pm...... >>
On it.
Thanks.
(sarcasm)
Also looking for VF-EF Seated halves.
Sell me your old auction catalogs...
<< <i>Has anyone here known eBay to report shillers to the authorities? >>
I'm not familiar with the law. What law would this violate?
Shilling is a huge concern on this forum--to the point that it is suspected much more than it happens. A real, valid shill should be dealt with promptly. --Jerry
<< <i>Why would they? They are bringing in fee's to improve the bottom line. Why screw up a good thing? (sarcasm) >>
Ebay doesn't turn a deaf ear to shillers or any other rules violators. They are aware enough to realize that loss of credibility affects their bottom line MUCH more than loss of a few fees from rule violators. --Jerry
edit to add: They are just a big dumb beaurocratic organization that simply CAN'T act quickly and accurately on anything.
I think inquiring minds would be interested in knowing..........
<< <i>
<< <i>Why would they? They are bringing in fee's to improve the bottom line. Why screw up a good thing? (sarcasm) >>
Ebay doesn't turn a deaf ear to shillers or any other rules violators. They are aware enough to realize that loss of credibility affects their bottom line MUCH more than loss of a few fees from rule violators. --Jerry
edit to add: They are just a big dumb beaurocratic organization that simply CAN'T act quickly and accurately on anything. >>
Is NARUing someone sufficient action on eBay's part or should they pursue more drastic action pursuant to some of the info posted above?
<< <i>If I was concerned I might contact the member and let him/her know my concerns. Sometimes a word to the wise is sufficient. If they say MYOB one can do just that or report them to eBay. >>
I see no reason whatsoever to do this unless it is your parent, your spouse or your kid. Whether they cease the practice, there is certain probability of ill feelings and retribution toward the innocent confidant. When they decided to shill on a scale like this, they have taken the full risk and we should exact the full justice. Burn him at his stake.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
///////////////////////////
Absolutely.
Any crime that causes a lack of confidence in the market
harms EVERY collector/investor.
I would prefer capital-punishment for offenders, but prison will have to do.
They say, to hell with "bidiots"....
has ruled people should MYOB. I am curious how the self-righteous comment on this.
Also looking for VF-EF Seated halves.
Sell me your old auction catalogs...
<< <i>You better watch yourself Eric. The self-righteous will tear you a new one for involving yourself.
They say, to hell with "bidiots"....
has ruled people should MYOB. I am curious how the self-righteous comment on this.
>>
Well, it's different. In your situation, cinman, it appears you took the "law into your own hands" whereas sumorada does not suggest this method at this time. Most of us wouldn't have had a problem if you had said you were going to report the seller to eBay ...
See the 5th post to this thread.
<< <i>
<< <i>You better watch yourself Eric. The self-righteous will tear you a new one for involving yourself.
They say, to hell with "bidiots"....
has ruled people should MYOB. I am curious how the self-righteous comment on this.
>>
Well, it's different. In your situation, cinman, it appears you took the "law into your own hands" whereas sumorada does not suggest this method at this time. Most of us wouldn't have had a problem if you had said you were going to report the seller to eBay ... >>
I did report it Mike, as did others. Ebay is the entity who did nothing about enforcing their own rules.
<< <i>"I'm not familiar with the law. What law would this violate?"
See the 5th post to this thread. >>
I hate to be petty, but it's the 6th post.
But actually, I overlooked braddick since he had no icon.
good luck in your decision.
it could be tough, either way.
<< <i>5th post in response to the original post
But actually, I overlooked braddick since he had no icon.
It's actually an avatar, and please give it back.
<< <i>"I'm not familiar with the law. What law would this violate?"
See the 5th post to this thread. >>
I see the following points in an indictment regarding shilling:
"1-d. eBay rules prohibited buyers from engaging in “shill” bidding, which was the act of deliberately placing a bid on an item, without intending to actually purchase the item bid upon, in order to artificially drive up the price of an auction."
"10. It was further part of the scheme that defendant AMIEL, with Art Dealer A’s knowledge, “shill bid” on the counterfeit prints AMIEL provided to Art Dealer A for sale on eBay in order to inflate the bidding price of the counterfeit prints."
But I do not see any "laws" being quoted regarding those "two" points of which one is eBays specific rules.
I do see an indictment that involved the selling of "counterfeit" art prints (fraud) which also had "forged" artists signatures (fraud) which involved eBay and millions of dollars of which Title 18 appropriately applies.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>You better watch yourself Eric. The self-righteous will tear you a new one for involving yourself.
They say, to hell with "bidiots"....
has ruled people should MYOB. I am curious how the self-righteous comment on this.
>>
Well, it's different. In your situation, cinman, it appears you took the "law into your own hands" whereas sumorada does not suggest this method at this time. Most of us wouldn't have had a problem if you had said you were going to report the seller to eBay ... >>
I did report it Mike, as did others. Ebay is the entity who did nothing about enforcing their own rules. >>
Actually, I was referring to the situation where you allegedly ran up the bids ....
<< <i>
But I do not see any "laws" being quoted regarding those "two" points of which one is eBays specific rules.
I do see an indictment that involved the selling of "counterfeit" art prints (fraud) which also had "forged" artists signatures (fraud) which involved eBay and millions of dollars of which Title 18 appropriately applies. >>
Wow...somebody else "gets" it! The shill bidding is mentioned as part of the statement of the
facts of the case, but it was not mentioned in any of the actual criminal charges. That's because shill
bidding is a violation of ebay rules, and the US Dept of Justice enforces LAWS not CONTRACTS.
I believe one thing educate yourself on the value of a coin or product. Why should someone with great patiences steal a coin that a seller starts at .99 to play the game, but in turn loses his/her azz because no one wanted to pay at least %25 or more for the item. Then comes the squrriel that steals the nut. So I hope you get what I am saying, you might have your cake and eat it too. But in the long run figure out the value of what you are willing to pay for a item, if it goes past your limit, move the f on and stop tearing down someones wallet. That person will get caught sooner or later. Just had to say something about this topic. SORRY.
the White-Collar crime unit of the FBI in San Francisco.
Additionally, the FTC routinely, upon consumer complaints, takes action
against shill-bidders employed by auction houses engaged in interstate-commerce.
Last week, the FBI presented at the National Sports Cards Show in Chicago.
One focus of their questioning of auction houses in attendance, was reportedly "shill bidding."
That anybody can think the practice is "OK," is astonishing.
RR
<< <i>Anyone who doubts that shill-bidders are prosecuted shoud contact
the White-Collar crime unit of the FBI in San Francisco. >>
Please search here http://www.fbi.gov/whitecollarcrime.htm and give us a specific case
<< <i>Additionally, the FTC routinely, upon consumer complaints, takes action
against shill-bidders employed by auction houses engaged in interstate-commerce. >>
The FTC files CIVIL cases, not CRIMINAL cases.
<< <i>Last week, the FBI presented at the National Sports Cards Show in Chicago.
One focus of their questioning of auction houses in attendance, was reportedly "shill bidding." >>
In relation to fake autographs...
<< <i>That anybody can think the practice is "OK," is astonishing. >>
It's astonishing that you don't know that a breech of a contract term is not a "crime" and that
consignors or their agents bid on auctioned items ALL THE TIME and there is nothing unusual or
unethical going on. Unless an auction is a special type known as "absolute," sellers are PERMITTED
to bid on their own items. Ebay's rule is an oddity in the auction tradition.
<< <i>Shill Pill or freaking wheat mill. As I don't do it, I know many people on here have buddies/friends that help them cash in. Also there are plenty people that help out each other on ebay in the great USA.
I believe one thing educate yourself on the value of a coin or product. Why should someone with great patiences steal a coin that a seller starts at .99 to play the game, but in turn loses his/her azz because no one wanted to pay at least %25 or more for the item. Then comes the squrriel that steals the nut. So I hope you get what I am saying, you might have your cake and eat it too. But in the long run figure out the value of what you are willing to pay for a item, if it goes past your limit, move the f on and stop tearing down someones wallet. That person will get caught sooner or later. Just had to say something about this topic. SORRY.
Pretty much in agreement with this sentiment.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
my early American coins & currency: -- http://yankeedoodlecoins.com/
"It's astonishing that you don't know that a breech of a contract term is not a "crime" and that
consignors or their agents bid on auctioned items ALL THE TIME and there is nothing unusual or
unethical going on. Unless an auction is a special type known as "absolute," sellers are PERMITTED
to bid on their own items. Ebay's rule is an oddity in the auction tradition.
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Following his advice will, upon complaint, engender a visit from a Special Agent
at your local FBI Field Office.
Shill bidders are prosecuted under mail-fraud and wire-fraud statutes.
MANY auction houses specifically permit an item's owner or a family member of
such owner's estate to bid on the item. Traditionally, family members have used
such auctions to equitably divide and fund the estate of a deceased relative.
This practice has NOTHING to do with unlawful "shill bidding." Defenders
of shill-biding routinely confuse the unrealted concepts to justify their positions.
The case cited at page one of this thread (The Walton case) was brought as the
result of an FBI investigation, in 2000, into "shill bidding" on artwork that was
subsequently determined to be "fake." In fact, probably 90% of the "art and
collectible fraud" cases that have been brought in the past 10-years began as
invetigations into shilling allegations.
Walton writes in FAKE: Forgery, Lies, and EBAY
...my cohorts and I used to bid on our own and each other's auctions using fake eBay user IDs. This practice, which is known as shill bidding, is against eBay rules. Our shill bidding was uncovered by a New York Times reporter who carefully researched our auctions and found patterns, and this discovery is what ultimately attracted the attention of the FBI.
..........
NOTE: I am not picking on frankcoins. His lack of understanding of the law
is widespread among "traditional" auctioneers; particularly in the SE USA.
They just don't see the difference between letting two elderly sisters bid on
their late mother's "estate items," and using shills to artificially inflate the
prices that consumers pay in online auctions.
The law does see the distinction and they will prosecute complained of offenders.
<< <i>frankcoins asserts..........
"It's astonishing that you don't know that a breech of a contract term is not a "crime" and that
consignors or their agents bid on auctioned items ALL THE TIME and there is nothing unusual or
unethical going on. Unless an auction is a special type known as "absolute," sellers are PERMITTED
to bid on their own items. Ebay's rule is an oddity in the auction tradition.
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Following his advice will, upon complaint, engender a visit from a Special Agent
at your local FBI Field Office.
Shill bidders are prosecuted under mail-fraud and wire-fraud statutes.
MANY auction houses specifically permit an item's owner or a family member of
such owner's estate to bid on the item. Traditionally, family members have used
such auctions to equitably divide and fund the estate of a deceased relative.
This practice has NOTHING to do with unlawful "shill bidding." Defenders
of shill-biding routinely confuse the unrealted concepts to justify their positions.
The case cited at page one of this thread (The Walton case) was brought as the
result of an FBI investigation, in 2000, into "shill bidding" on artwork that was
subsequently determined to be "fake." In fact, probably 90% of the "art and
collectible fraud" cases that have been brought in the past 10-years began as
invetigations into shilling allegations.
Walton writes in FAKE: Forgery, Lies, and EBAY
...my cohorts and I used to bid on our own and each other's auctions using fake eBay user IDs. This practice, which is known as shill bidding, is against eBay rules. Our shill bidding was uncovered by a New York Times reporter who carefully researched our auctions and found patterns, and this discovery is what ultimately attracted the attention of the FBI.
..........
NOTE: I am not picking on frankcoins. His lack of understanding of the law
is widespread among "traditional" auctioneers; particularly in the SE USA.
They just don't see the difference between letting two elderly sisters bid on
their late mother's "estate items," and using shills to artificially inflate the
prices that consumers pay in online auctions.
The law does see the distinction and they will prosecute complained of offenders. >>
Thank you for that post. I should also point out that "breech" refers to a birth.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>Read about it here what happens if your caught and prosecuted >>
<< <i>The use of shill bids in on-line auctions illegally drives up prices and defrauds consumers," said Eliot Spitzer, >>
how ironic.
<< <i>
NOTE: I am not picking on frankcoins. His lack of understanding of the law
is widespread among "traditional" auctioneers; particularly in the SE USA.
They just don't see the difference between letting two elderly sisters bid on
their late mother's "estate items," and using shills to artificially inflate the
prices that consumers pay in online auctions.
The law does see the distinction and they will prosecute complained of offenders. >>
I must take six hours of continuing education each year on auction law, (and ebay was specifically discussed...they like to
apply auction laws when it benefits them, and then claim auction laws DO NOT APPLY to their 'unique business model" when it
involves a cost.) I also must pass a written test at the state capital in Austin conducted by the Texas department of licensing and regulation. I scored
100%. I know what the law is in Texas (most other states also follow a "model law" with few changes) and Consignors
have the right under the law to bid on their own items in standard auctions. An AUCTIONEER
cannot place fake shill bids simply to increase his commission...but bids from the owner are acceptable and legal., and
do not "artificially inflate the price" any more than a reserve.
I am offended at your condesending remarks that auctioneers from the South are just too stupid to understand the law.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Read about it here what happens if your caught and prosecuted >>
that's sure a stretch to claim that someone violating an ebay policy is guilty of restraint of
trade. Even dumber to plead guilty , in which case the government gets to relocate your
residence to a "for profit" prison without a jury of your peers judging you.
<< <i>Doesn't Teletrade allow owners to bid on their own coins? >>
Virtually all auctions. From Heritage's standard terms:
http://www.ha.com/common/images/TermsAndConditions.pdf section 13:
Notice of the consignor’s liberty to place bids on his lots in the Auction is hereby made in accordance with Article 2 of the Texas Business and Commercial Code. A ”Minimum Bid” is an amount below which the lot will not sell. THE CONSIGNOR OF PROPERTY MAY PLACE WRITTEN ”Minimum Bids” ON HIS LOTS IN ADVANCE OF THE AUCTION; ON SUCH LOTS, IF THE HAMMER PRICE DOES NOT MEET THE ”Minimum Bid”, THE CONSIGNOR MAY PAY A REDUCED COMMISSION ON THOSE LOTS. ”Minimum Bids” are generally posted online several days prior to the Auction closing. For any successful bid placed by a consignor on his Property on the Auction floor, or by any means during the live session, or after the ”Minimum Bid” for an Auction have been posted, we will require the consignor to pay full Buyer’s Premium and Seller’s Commissions on such lot. 14. The highest qualified Bidder recognized by the Auctioneer shall be the buyer.
<< <i>Doesn't Teletrade allow owners to bid on their own coins? >>
That is a sticky one, isn't it? In reality, if one only bid TT after 3:30 PM PST or so on the day of the auction, the "buyback" is no more than an opening bid. Of course, if less seasoned bidders have been enticed by apparent bidding activity prior to the end of ratcheting up that reserve, it could work differently.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
auctions are mentioned here all the time, for a second opinon
How about listing the ones in question for a second opinion from forum members?