PayPal Claim Advice

moosesr · August 3, 2008 9:00AM

This is my first Paypal claim filed against me. I recently sold a 2006 20th Anniversary Silver Eagle 3 Coin Set and received this rating and message from the buyer. Auction Link I looked at the coins in this set before I mailed them and saw no spots or defects.

<< Thanks got set today and looks great so I left you very positive feedback. Thanks again James >>

<< Quick shipping!!! Great seller!!!!! All I have to say is WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! jimbob08-2008 ( 50) Jul-30-08 09:46 >>

A couple of days later I received this message:

<< The coins that I received looked beautiful at first, the further that I looked,there are a few chips on the edge of the coins around the rims on two. The proof coin has a spot(the six is connected to the edge) on the edge near the date under the six. There is a spot on the bottom of dress on one of the coins. I would like a refund the coins were not as expected, the condition was not spot free or problem free coins. Please respond as soon as possible. Thanks,Cathy >>

Notice this message is signed by a person named Kathy and not James as were the others.

And then this message:

<< There is a "spot" (a ding to others) on the ultra cameo on the dress,I'm sorry that I worded it wrong in first email. There are also chips around the edge of two of the other coins. There is a small ding under the six on the proof coin. There are also a couple of chips this is under a magnifing glass. This is why I am asking for a refund,please consider this request. Thanks James >>

Here are my responses:

<< Hi James, I received a message today from Cathy who told me the set I sold you had spots and requested a refund. I am going on your response to me that the coins are acceptable and am not going to provide a refund. I looked at each coin in the set before I mailed them and did not see any spots or defects as described to me by Kathy. I have 6 other sets and I looked at them again and there are still no spots of defects on any of those sets either. >>

<< Hi James, Unless you buy these coins in a PCGS/NGC MS70/PR70 holders there will almost always be some very small dings on the coins that can be seen under magnification. The coins you received are probably better than most sets you get off ebay because most sets have been picked over for perfect coins. The sets I am selling are not picked over, they are just the way I received them from the mint. If I went through all my sets with a magnifing glass it is possible I could get a few coins that were absolutely perfect, but I chose not to do that and instead sell the sets as I received them from the mint. I am sure the dings you are describing cannot be seen without magnification. I don't feel obligated to give you a refund, because I believe the coins you received are as I described them in my auction. If you are that unhappy with the coins, I am sure you could sell them on ebay with no problem and buy the perfect coins you seem to want in PCGS or NGC holders. However these perfect coins will probably each cost you more than you paid for the whole set you bought from me. >>

Here is the PayPal dispute description:

<< The coins have external damage they are nicked and chipped. One of the coin holders was also damaged on one of the coin as well.Tried to resolve issue with seller,there is a seven day return policy, notifed seller within the 3 days of purchase and refused refund. >>

I think I am screwed and will have to refund the buyers money since I did offer a 7 day refund policy and normally I wouldn't have a problem with doing that, but now I am afraid this buyer is going to switch coins on me and then what can I do about it?

If anyone has had a similar experience and could give me some advice on how to handle this problem would appreciate it?

Thanks,
Charlie

Weather11am · August 3, 2008 9:12AM

yeah be careful or you will end up with no coins and no money

rgCoinGuy · August 3, 2008 9:14AM

You offer a Seven Day refund, you need to honor your own policy. That is my two cents.

Frankcoins · August 3, 2008 9:28AM

A difficult situation faced by all sellers who accept paypal or credit cards. You are likely to lose both the coins and the money. A lot of
"screw the establishment" books and websites have advocated that scam for years. Even if you accept the coins back, you could
be sent a box of rocks...that happened to us 10 years ago and since the scammer had proof that we had received the item back, we faced
a $1600 chargeback.

PawPaul · August 3, 2008 9:53AM

YOU OFFER A 7 DAY RETURN ????? Then what the heck are you squawking about ?

jdimmick · August 3, 2008 10:02AM

You offer a 7 day return privledge, you must honor it, even if its a BS complaint/ reason for return!!!!

moosesr · August 3, 2008 10:04AM

<< YOU OFFER A 7 DAY RETURN ????? Then what the heck are you squawking about ? >>

I am concererned the buyer is not going to send me the same coins I sent him. I looked at the coins before I mailed them and saw no defects. If right off the buyer had just said he was unhappy with the coins I wouldn't have had this concern. In this case the buyer was so pleased with the coins he not only sent me a message saying so, he gave me a good rating. But now all of the sudden the coins have defects!

FishyOne · August 3, 2008 10:21AM

I sympathize with your situation but from your own words:

"Seven day return policy less shipping, and insurance if coins are in original holder."

I can also picture "Kathy" tell James, "WHAT THE F%#@! You spent $320 on $50 worth of silver! Send 'em back NOW!".

P.S. I think you will get your original coins back but you should not have refused a refund that you say you'll accept.

Placid · August 3, 2008 10:24AM

Maybe in the furture put a seal of some sort on the holder so if that holder is opened you can tell and state in your auctions that if that seal is broken then no returns.

OPA · August 3, 2008 10:27AM

I did not see any spots or rim damage on your scans. The good news is, that the raw sets have held their value over the last 7 month. $310 - $330 range. Sounds like buyers remorse. Refund the $$$ & have the item relisted.

BAJJERFAN · August 3, 2008 10:33AM

<< A difficult situation faced by all sellers who accept paypal or credit cards. You are likely to lose both the coins and the money. A lot of
"screw the establishment" books and websites have advocated that scam for years. Even if you accept the coins back, you could
be sent a box of rocks...that happened to us 10 years ago and since the scammer had proof that we had received the item back, we faced
a $1600 chargeback. >>

Would they get away with that if you opened the returned package in the presence of your postmaster who would swear that there was indeed rocks in the box and that postal fraud charges would be filed?

moosesr · August 3, 2008 11:49PM

I told the buyer I would give him a refund as soon as I received the coins back and here was his response:

<< Dear moosesr, I will send back coins today thanks for doing this for me and I am sorry for all the trouble on this transaction. Thanks,James P.S Kathy is my wife.

- jimbob08-2008 >>

FishyOne was probably right!

<< I can also picture "Kathy" tell James, "WHAT THE F%#@! You spent $320 on $50 worth of silver! Send 'em back NOW!". >>

But now PayPal is withdrawing funds from my account as they come in and will not let me print shipping labels without paying the total amount of the refund

lcoopie · August 4, 2008 12:07AM

I wouldn't want to be in a business that relies on ebay or paypal

Mar327 · August 4, 2008 1:15AM

<< Would they get away with that if you opened the returned package in the presence of your postmaster who would swear that there was indeed rocks in the box and that postal fraud charges would be filed? >>

I was wondering the same thing.

After the experience we just had, I know how you feel, but the buyer didn't give us a chance to make it right, he just went right to PayPal with a dispute. And PayPal didn't give us the option of paying back the shipping charges, they just took it all and held it until the coin came back to us - I'm afraid you'll lose that too.

I like Placid's idea of putting a seal over the airtites.

Another thing that caught my eye was that "Cathy" wrote the first one, then James mentioned his wife "Kathy" at the end. Hmm, which is it? Minor detail but strange.

I also think this was a case of buyer's remorse. Or most likely, buyer's WIFE'S remorse...

mrpotatoheadd · August 4, 2008 1:30AM

<< I think I am screwed and will have to refund the buyers money since I did offer a 7 day refund policy and normally I wouldn't have a problem with doing that, but now I am afraid this buyer is going to switch coins on me and then what can I do about it?

If anyone has had a similar experience and could give me some advice on how to handle this problem would appreciate it? >>

If my past experience with PayPal is in any way representative of how they handle this sort of situation, you won't have to refund the buyer anything. PayPal will do it for you, using your money. The best you can do is to make returning the coins as easy as you can for the buyer and not say anything that might cause him to want to screw with you over the return.

CertifiedGoldCoins · August 4, 2008 1:43AM

Re: jimbob08-2008: another one for my blocked bidder list.

YaHa · August 4, 2008 2:08AM

I feel for you my friend, Refund policy you offered is 7 days. Also to all ebay sellers, write down your serial numbers on your slabs and make sure you get back what you send.

OBTW I have had over 15 sets in ICG 70 in the past 2 years I crosed 5 of them 3 to PCGS and 2 to NGC and all came back all 70 grades. Although I lost the 20th anniversary label for the proof and the burnished, I gain some gemmy 70 reverse proof coins in PCGS/NGC holders.

Always examine your coins with at least ten times mag and another hint as I went table to table at the ANA show this weekend I got some opinions on some coins that all three experts at ICG/PCGS/NGC said they had a great chance plus a few that didn't. Homework in 5th grade seems like homework in life at age 47. I tell my kids this stuff all of the time. My kids seem like a few on this board worrried about PERFECT GRAMMAR but no streets smarts and basic sense. Gotta luv this new generation it's our future.

COINB0Y · August 4, 2008 2:37AM

moosesr · August 6, 2008 4:04AM

I received my coins back today, they are the same ones I sent the seller. I opened the box in front of my mailman to have him as a witness just in case the coins were missing or had been substituted with something else.

I looked at the coins under 10x and could see a bright spot on libertys skirt on the proof and also a bright spot on the rim. I could see no other blemishes and these tiny specks probably would only make the coin a Proof 69 instead of 70. You cant even see the specks without magnification. I will be refunding the buyers money today.

Should I have looked at the coins under 10x magnification and described any defect, no matter how small when selling a mint product like this one?

Charlie

CertifiedGoldCoins · August 6, 2008 4:10AM

<< Should I have looked at the coins under 10x magnification and described any defect, no matter how small when selling a mint product like this one?
Charlie >>

Since eBay states "Seller assumes all responsibility for listing this item." and they weren't certified, I'd say yes.

storm888 · August 6, 2008 4:16AM

Mentioning minor defects - for example a TINY "milk-spot" - will usually defeat
a PayPal SNAD claim.

Such descriptions may, however, hurt sales/prices. BUT, at least once the items
are sold, they stay "sold."

seatedcoins · August 6, 2008 4:24AM

Should of honored the 7 day return policy right away. I'm glad you got the original coins back. Sounded like the wife got upset over the purchase. I have had something similar as far as positive feedback left then a few days later wanting a refund. Kind of puzzled me too.

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