If 75% of the board responded that they can grade coins then what is your opinion of this?

seateddime · July 26, 2008 1:51AM

If 75% of the board responded that they can grade coins then what is your opinion of this?

I posted a coin to be graded by the board, I take no insults at all but wanted to compare my grade to other. Forget about the coin itself but look at the opinions offered.

The grades range from a low VF to a high of MS63. That is a large gap.

Opinions? Comments?

gecko109 · July 26, 2008 1:52AM

Grading solely based on pictures is a COMPLETELY different ballgame than grading a coin in hand, with a good light source.

commoncents05 · July 26, 2008 1:53AM

I agree with gecko. Impossible to accurately grade a coin only from a photo.

-Paul

IwantNonCCs · July 26, 2008 1:54AM

Tells me who I want to buy from and who I want to sell to.
I don't even need to grade, let them judge for themselves.

291fifth · July 26, 2008 1:55AM

It simply proves that "grading is an opinion" and that there is no one accepted standard.

zeus135 · July 26, 2008 1:55AM

Well....... 75% of the board didn't say they can grade coins CORRECTLY.

seateddime · July 26, 2008 1:59AM

<< Grading solely based on pictures is a COMPLETELY different ballgame than grading a coin in hand, with a good light source. >>

Ok - that is a excellent reason but with in what margin of error? There is some gap bettween a 20 to a 63. I easily see your point from say a 55 to a 63.

FishyOne · July 26, 2008 2:00AM

If you're refering to this thread: Linky

It's easy to see why there's a huge difference of opinion. I'd have graded that coin XF but could see it going VF or AU also.

The coin in question looked dipped and maybe whizzed and could lead some to say MS. That is tough with the pics provided.

sweetwilliet · July 26, 2008 2:04AM

Well, you may have had replies in your guess the grade thread from the other 25% who said they can't grade, add in grading from a photo, and your range can be from 1 to 70.

gecko109 · July 26, 2008 2:05AM

<< 

<< Grading solely based on pictures is a COMPLETELY different ballgame than grading a coin in hand, with a good light source. >>

Ok - that is a excellent reason but with in what margin of error? There is some gap bettween a 20 to a 63. I easily see your point from say a 55 to a 63. >>

That IS one helluva gap. But throw out the lowest 3 guesses, and the highest 3 guesses and I suspect that gap closes considerably. Remember, according to your own numbers, 25% of us cannot grade coins effectively.

That may account for the lowball and highball guesses.

RWB · July 26, 2008 2:10AM

…If 75% of the board responded that they can grade coins then what is your opinion of this?

Personal reporting surveys have very limited value. In the case of “ability to grade coins” individual opinion is not independently associated with a standard reference. The error bar would have to be objectively assessed for each person, then the universe of respondents correlated.

In the sample referred to, the margin or error is actually equal to the range of responses. Thus :… The grades range from a low VF to a high of MS63. That is a large gap. This is the normal and expected error for your sample, which means that any grade within that range is accurate.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled list of ebay gripes.

IrishMike · July 26, 2008 2:24AM

<< …If 75% of the board responded that they can grade coins then what is your opinion of this?

Personal reporting surveys have very limited value. In the case of “ability to grade coins” individual opinion is not independently associated with a standard reference. The error bar would have to be objectively assessed for each person, then the universe of respondents correlated.

In the sample referred to, the margin or error is actually equal to the range of responses. Thus :… The grades range from a low VF to a high of MS63. That is a large gap. This is the normal and expected error for your sample, which means that any grade within that range is accurate.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled list of ebay gripes. >>

Translation: 75% of the respondents to the survey are overly optimistic about their grading abilities.

TwoSides2aCoin · July 26, 2008 2:39AM

I can deduce that grading is more subjective than I first thought.

jfoot13 · July 26, 2008 2:41AM

<< 

<< 

<< Grading solely based on pictures is a COMPLETELY different ballgame than grading a coin in hand, with a good light source. >>

Ok - that is a excellent reason but with in what margin of error? There is some gap bettween a 20 to a 63. I easily see your point from say a 55 to a 63. >>

That IS one helluva gap. But throw out the lowest 3 guesses, and the highest 3 guesses and I suspect that gap closes considerably. Remember, according to your own numbers, 25% of us cannot grade coins effectively.

That may account for the lowball and highball guesses. >>

Excellent point about the 3 highest and 3 lowest .. this would make the concenses in the high AU low MS range... now in the original ebay auction before it was changed I believe the coin was listed as GEM bu ( which is usually understood to be 64/65 or better ) now who's going to send this baby off to PCGS to see how this plays out?

RWB · July 26, 2008 2:46AM

IrishMike - or, to put it another way: All 75% think they are correctly grading.

I wonder what results would be if the survey were limited to those who had taken the ANA grading class?

NHSBaseball · July 26, 2008 2:59AM

The half in question was a very tough coin due to its extremely weak strike. I guessed AU on the original thread- because you really can't see the luster or potential breaks in the luster without having the coin in hand.

Despite this, as I count it, 16 out of 19 respondents put the coin in the AU to MS range. That's not too bad based on the coin in question.

seateddime · July 26, 2008 3:03AM

very interesting,

I "think" I can grade, so do most, maybe we overestimate our ability?

Nysoto · July 26, 2008 3:04AM

<< If 75% of the board responded that they can grade coins then what is your opinion of this? >>

They can grade to which standard? PCGS, NGC, or other? 1990 or 2008 standards? Are the TPG's grading accurately if their standards are different and change over time?

I think many specialists can grade well within their own series, in the grades they commonly collect, and these grades may differ from the TPG's opinions.

charley · July 26, 2008 3:04AM

RWB, 75% are correctly grading because the 75% are offering their personal opinion. The question is whether or not the opinion is acceptable for the majority of collectors/dealers and whether or not the opinion is within reason of generally accepted standards of evaluation. The remaining 25% probably don't have opinions they would want to share. This doesn't mean the remaining 25% can't grade. Respectfully, John Curlis

gecko109 · July 26, 2008 3:05AM

<< very interesting,

I "think" I can grade, so do most, maybe we overestimate our ability? >>

Much in the same way that I'd guess most of us overvalue our personal collections.

Artist · July 26, 2008 3:05AM

<< If you're refering to this thread: Linky

It's easy to see why there's a huge difference of opinion. I'd have graded that coin XF but could see it going VF or AU also.

The coin in question looked dipped and maybe whizzed and could lead some to say MS. That is tough with the pics provided. >>

In addition, I would add that that particular coin presents an additional grading challenge in terms of strike, particularly on the reverse where there only VF details present coupled with what looks like full mint luster. Definitely one for the Walker specialists in the house.

RWB · July 26, 2008 3:07AM

My opinion is that collectors don't have enough opportunity to "calibrate" their personal grading knowledge. That is much of the value of the ANA course – and it’s something that should be taken several times over a period of years. Most collectors who claim to be able to grade coins have learned by the “seat of the pants” method…maybe they should try piloting a 767 the same way?

NHSBaseball · July 26, 2008 3:09AM

<< My opinion is that collectors don't have enough opportunity to "calibrate" their personal grading knowledge. That is much of the value of the ANA course – and it’s something that should be taken several times over a period of years. Most collectors who claim to be able to grade coins have learned by the “seat of the pants” method…maybe they should try piloting a 767 the same way? >>

Sorta like teaching- you learn a bunch of abstract theory put forth by academic coneheads, then they throw you in a room with 32 overstimulated 7th graders! Go get 'em, Tiger!

BECOKA · July 26, 2008 3:10AM

75% can grade the series they collect. I'd bet of that 75% only 1 or 2% can grade the majority of series. Me personally am pretty good at 3 or 4 series. That leaves several dozen other series that I am not comfortable with. There are many other series where the lower grade ranges are similar but once you get to MS all bets are off.

charley · July 26, 2008 3:16AM

RWB, that is a logical observation and I would concur with the opinion, if you would agree to remove the last 10 words and change the question mark to a period. My concern is the plane could come down on a show I am attending and hit me( not a bad thing in the opinion of others, I know). Respectfully, John Curlis

RWB · July 26, 2008 3:41AM

Consider it done...I was going to take the train anyway.

charley · July 26, 2008 3:44AM

I didn't think you would do it because I was certain that you were in the "not a bad thing" group.

Thank You, Respectfully, John Curlis

DennisH · July 26, 2008 3:45AM

The original poll was badly flawed in that it gave only two response choices: all or nothing. I suspect many people picked all because it came closest to the partial/limited/OK ability they feel they have.

I know that's what I did.

RedTiger · July 26, 2008 4:10AM

Considering that in my quality vs. price survey 66% of respondents say they collect quality for the grade (link to thread), one would hope that at least 66% can grade

. Likely, just as most think the coins "they" buy are above average, it is likely that most overestimate their grading abilities.

I do think most can grade the coins they collect. However, put them in front of an unfamiliar series and all bets are off. Some newbies think they can transfer their limited knowledge from one series to another, or into a completely different area (eg gold coins, Walker halves, early copper are all specialities with a lot of subtlety). When those newbies (those with less than five years) leverage their little bit of knowledge and mix it with their sometimes supersized egos, it leads to some really bad guesses.

While looking at images is not a substitute for looking at coins in person, if someone mostly buys from images, they best learn to evaluate images well. For companies with a standardized process for imaging, it is easier. On Ebay, when one seller may do excellent photos, another does crap photos, a third does enhanced photos, a fourth uses a scanner, it is harder.

JRocco · July 26, 2008 4:12AM

My guess is that 25% of the people who play here are not coin collectors. Or if they are, they are the kind of collector that buys coins after a respected dealer gives the OK, or the slab tells them what the grade of a coin is, etc etc etc, in other words-they can't grade and have no desire to learn, but love the internet and have found a temporary home here.

The other 75% are made up of the range of serious numismatist (eg cladking/slumlord/Nysoto/Bill Jones/Fred Weinberg/Coppercoins...to only name a few), serious collectors who are learning to be numismatists (Russ and Keets come to mind), casual collectors (many of the people who are named when the monthly "Who is the Smartest member that posts here?" thread is started), and the weekend warrior collector...probably where we all started at one time.

Add the fact that you CAN NOT grade a coin from a pic and you get your range.

ziggy29 · July 26, 2008 4:21AM

In reality, I think any time someone is asked to grade a coin with an image, there should be an implied statement before the grade: "I can't grade a coin from just an image, but based ONLY on what I see here which could change if I examined it in person, it appears to be roughly...."

But yeah, 20 to 63 is a huge gap. Sometimes a coin can be MS or close to MS but might appear lower to others in an image because the luster doesn't show through (luster is often hard to capture in an image and still pictures don't cartwheel) and the coin is weakly struck. In such cases I can easily see someone calling a weakly struck MS-62 something like XF-40.

LickThoseStamps · July 26, 2008 4:21AM

<< If 75% of the board responded that they can grade coins then what is your opinion of this?

I posted a coin to be graded by the board, I take no insults at all but wanted to compare my grade to other. Forget about the coin itself but look at the opinions offered.

The grades range from a low VF to a high of MS63. That is a large gap.

Opinions? Comments? >>

Grading by definition is an opinion. Therefore, the logical conclusion of your survey is that only 75% of the board members are capable of formulating an opinion?

We ought to do another survey to determine the primary cause of the impairment of the other 25%.

charley · July 26, 2008 4:23AM

JRocco, that is still just an opinion. Grading people is a lot like grading coins. The majority don't self -grade with the same opinion that they grade others. Respectfully, John Curlis

ziggy29 · July 26, 2008 4:24AM

<< JRocco, that is still just an opinion. Grading people is a lot like grading coins. The majority don't self -grade with the same opinion that they grade others. >>

Are you saying 'ownership adds a point'?

charley · July 26, 2008 4:27AM

Ah, ziggy, Thank You for understanding the thrust of my thoughts and translating into a proper numismatic context. Respectfully, John Curlis

JRocco · July 26, 2008 4:29AM

<< JRocco, that is still just an opinion. Grading people is a lot like grading coins. The majority don't self -grade with the same opinion that they grade others. Respectfully, John Curlis >>

You are correct sir.
Just as every parent thinks their monsters are angels

fc · July 26, 2008 4:32AM

If 75% of the board responded that they can grade coins then what is your opinion of this?

I think 100% of the this forum can grade coins. Anyone can grade
a coin. And since standards do not exist in this hobby everyone
can be right 100% of the time too.

charley · July 26, 2008 4:34AM

I concur and attest and confess to self-fulfillment. Respectfully, John Curlis

charley · July 26, 2008 4:36AM

fc, see my previous post. Wonder of wonders, we have found common ground. Respectfully, John Curlis

Gemineye · July 26, 2008 5:09AM

I didn't respond to that pol....I still say melt that coin........!!!!

BlindedByEgo · July 26, 2008 5:13AM

<< Grading solely based on pictures is a COMPLETELY different ballgame than grading a coin in hand, with a good light source. >>

'Zackly.

LindeDad · July 26, 2008 5:33AM

<< If 75% of the board responded that they can grade coins then what is your opinion of this? >>

I think that 75% of the board members did not respond to your poll so all of the premises are not valid.
I for one commented but did not put in a response to the poll, and I don't think 75% of the members were even online yesterday when you ran it.

Fairlaneman · July 26, 2008 5:54AM

<< The grades range from a low VF to a high of MS63. That is a large gap.

Opinions? Comments? >>

Opinion.....Some of the answers, grade opinions, are insane.

Comment..Some of the responders have not learned even the basics about grading or they were just screwing with you. Its one or the other.

Ken

Musky1011 · July 26, 2008 6:28AM

grading coins is like grading women

to each his own

Steve27 · July 26, 2008 7:28AM

Take the median value and you'll have the correct answer.

garsmith · July 26, 2008 8:29AM

I would say that 75% of that 75% are only fooling thenselves

ILikeMercs · July 26, 2008 8:36AM

75% can grade EVERY type and denomination of coins? I highly doubt that.

seateddime · July 26, 2008 10:07AM

<< 

<< JRocco, that is still just an opinion. Grading people is a lot like grading coins. The majority don't self -grade with the same opinion that they grade others. Respectfully, John Curlis >>

You are correct sir.
Just as every parent thinks their monsters are angels

>>

that's funny, I think my angels are monsters

seateddime · July 26, 2008 10:10AM

<< grading coins is like grading women

to each his own

>>

that is more like toning vs bright white but I KNOW I can grade women ( landing them is a whole other story)

oreville · July 26, 2008 10:25AM

I happen to pretty darned good in grading on-line pictures of coins on the internet.

I do not say that out of deceit.

But I am the first to admit that grading of these coins is actually GRADING PICTURES OF COINS, not the coins themselves.

AUandAG · July 26, 2008 11:44AM

I responded that I do NOT know how to grade. Oh, yeah, most of the time I'm pretty good. But, I can
be sooooooo waaaaay off at other times. I do NOT KNOW HOW TO GRADE. Heck, I went to school for
2.5 years to learn to sell hearing aids. Now, I've not been to grading school, or even a class on grading,
so how good could I be good at it?
I would think that a grader has to look at thousands of coins weekly over a period of several months
to a year or more to get competent in determining a grade accurately. It has got to be a hands on
OJT type of learning to gain the expertise to do it properly.
Some on these boards could probably do just that. And some could probably grade their specialty
series (that they collect and know very well) with great competence. But there's not 2% of those
that responded that can really grade any coin properly.
bob

If 75% of the board responded that they can grade coins then what is your opinion of this?

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