Do you think your coins are original? If so do the following statements make you less confident?
CalGold
Posts: 2,608 ✭✭
<< ...I feel that dealers (not all, but many) crack coins out and don't use the regrade service so that they can play with the coins at least a little and sometimes a lot. >>
David Hall
<< A fellow dealer offered to give me all his artificial toning recipes for type coins and copper for the low price of $250,000. He's an old-timer in the business, and his work fools ME almost every time. I cannot believe what he is capable of doing. That's why if you bring me certain toned coins in holders at shows I'll just take the Fifth. I know enough to say that what's out there is scary, and I can't even spot most of it.
At least artificial toning is somewhat detectable. Gold is worse than anything else, but let's save that for another day. >>
Well known dealer with more than 30 years in the biz
CG
David Hall
<< A fellow dealer offered to give me all his artificial toning recipes for type coins and copper for the low price of $250,000. He's an old-timer in the business, and his work fools ME almost every time. I cannot believe what he is capable of doing. That's why if you bring me certain toned coins in holders at shows I'll just take the Fifth. I know enough to say that what's out there is scary, and I can't even spot most of it.
At least artificial toning is somewhat detectable. Gold is worse than anything else, but let's save that for another day. >>
Well known dealer with more than 30 years in the biz
CG
0
Comments
Not that I can always tell if a coin is original. It's just that I don't put a coin in my collection unless I'm comfortable with it.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Can this be read dipped with hairlines?
But yet, the auction writer is ammazed at how little patina this 150 year old coin has.
<< <i>but the odds are better when you are dealing with two-tone gray, dirty or "crusty" >>
But the problem is, and I hate to say it but too many folks even on here think something is "crusty" when it's not even close. I think their heart is in the right place though.
They call anything with a little brown "crusty." It's like the term "Rainbow" now. Many of the "crusty" examples shown around here could very well have been worked on.
There is the real deal crusty, then there are the impostors.
Edit to add, and now we notice the dealers selling coins that are not even close to "crusty" calling them so. They see the collectors want to hear and especially from their trusted dealer. The dealer knows better, I send them back immediately and they get my point.
<< <i>250,000 for the recipe? Get real >>
So what would a fair price be? Depending on the returns earned, isn't it possible that $250,000 is a very fair price or even a bargain?
<< but the odds are better when you are dealing with two-tone gray, dirty or "crusty" >>
Gray and sepia tones have been used for years by coin docs to conceal repairs, cleaning, and the like.
<< <i>and now we notice the dealers selling coins that are not even close to "crusty" calling them so. >>
Actually, I have seen a well known high-end dealer write a description emphasizing that a mint state coin is NOT crusty, so in that context crusty was viewed as being an undesirable condition that would make the coin less desirable.
CG
<< <i>I do think my coins are original, and the statements don't surprise or scare me.
Not that I can always tell if a coin is original. It's just that I don't put a coin in my collection unless I'm comfortable with it. >>
I am pretty confident then my 150+ year old circulated gold coins are original.
<< <i>The coins that go straight from the mint to the buyer than too the TPG are original all others are questionable. >>
And sometimes they even bodybag those you describe above as "original".
altered surfaces, my foot. . .
<< <i>250,000 for the recipe? Get real. >>
For those people who know how to use the information to their advantage, that price is a bargain.
Most of the doctoring on coins can be spotted by expert graders, but there are some cases where the work performed is amazingly realistic.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i><< ...I feel that dealers (not all, but many) crack coins out and don't use the regrade service so that they can play with the coins at least a little and sometimes a lot. >>
David Hall
<< A fellow dealer offered to give me all his artificial toning recipes for type coins and copper for the low price of $250,000. He's an old-timer in the business, and his work fools ME almost every time. I cannot believe what he is capable of doing. That's why if you bring me certain toned coins in holders at shows I'll just take the Fifth. I know enough to say that what's out there is scary, and I can't even spot most of it.
At least artificial toning is somewhat detectable. Gold is worse than anything else, but let's save that for another day. >> >>
the statement is so much hogwash
K S
<< <i>
<< <i>but the odds are better when you are dealing with two-tone gray, dirty or "crusty" >>
But the problem is, and I hate to say it but too many folks even on here think something is "crusty" when it's not even close. I think their heart is in the right place though.
They call anything with a little brown "crusty." It's like the term "Rainbow" now. Many of the "crusty" examples shown around here could very well have been worked on.
There is the real deal crusty, then there are the impostors.
Edit to add, and now we notice the dealers selling coins that are not even close to "crusty" calling them so. They see the collectors want to hear and especially from their trusted dealer. The dealer knows better, I send them back immediately and they get my point.
Here is CRUST:
Brothers, Ive got an an^s made in 1" thick stainless steel, I ain't afraid of nuthin'.
We can be a little bit reasonable. In the first place, there are not that many people who know how to make a dipped coin look like the one above. Secondly, those who like an un-messed-with coin have the advantage where there is no profit incentive for messing with it. This coin will sell for the same $75 with skin or without. Those who do the most deceptive jobs are likely applying their skills on a bigger-ticket sort of coin in the first place.
I'd be real leery of a Gobrecht dollar with monster toning, though.
<< <i>Those who do the most deceptive jobs are likely applying their skills on a bigger-ticket sort of coin in the first place. >>
I'll go along with that to a point. Here's what I do, I don't try and figure out why would they mess with a coin..... I go by what the coin looks like.
I've seen it written on this board, "well, chances of them messing with this coin are slim as the profit isn't very much." OR........
Why would they boink with the reverse as the obverse is the money side." Just a couple examples. Which may be valid, but like I said, I don't try and figure out what's inside
the possible boinkers mind, I look at the coin.
Hey, they gotta start somewhere. Are they going to start with a 50K coin..... or does it make sense to start with a 50.00-500.00 coin?
They can also just be enhanced and the rest of the coin can be NT. I think a lot of folks just focus on one thing. Let's say a toned Morgan has the pull-away toning on the date and such. Good thing right? Well, the rest or part of the "toning" can be enhanced. I also feel some folks that love color (and I do on certain coins) want to believe the color is real no matter how it got there, and some don't care if it's "pretty." But let them spend 5K and find out their "pretty" has been boinked with and I somehow feel it will matter to them. So IMO, the people out there buying the lower cost boinked with coins and saying it don't matter because it was cheap. Your local coin Doc appreciates you funding
their research and trial and error phase.
Hey, they gotta start somewhere. Are they going to start with a 50K coin..... or does it make sense to start with a 50.00-500.00 coin?
They can also just be enhanced and the rest of the coin can be NT. I think a lot of folks just focus on one thing. Let's say a toned Morgan has the pull-away toning on the date and such. Good thing right? Well, the rest or part of the "toning" can be enhanced. I also feel some folks that love color (and I do on certain coins) want to believe the color is real no matter how it got there, and some don't care if it's "pretty." But let them spend 5K and find out their "pretty" has been boinked with and I somehow feel it will matter to them. So IMO, the people out there buying the lower cost boinked with coins and saying it don't matter because it was cheap. Your local coin Doc appreciates you funding
their research and trial and error phase.
"They can also just be enhanced and the rest of the coin can be NT."
There ya go. It's not necessarily a "strip and re-color", dip and re-tone or what have you. Subtle enhancement by an expert can take a 63 or 4 coin to gem and beyond if it's done well. A spot removal on an otherwise nice copper coin can also make all the difference in the world. These coins are not easily detected as enhanced and make it past the graders all the time. But then again, the TPG's routinely holder dipped material, so someone tell me what's the difference insofar as market acceptability is concerned? I'd much rather own a proof Indian Cent where a spot was removed than a dipped Proof Seated coin any day of the week, as long as it was done expertly and stabilized. Theres a lot more surface area altered by a dip than a spot removed. (Just playing devils advocate to see how the rest of you feel about this)
john