Will (has) organized crime enter(ed) the coin market?
Pushkin
Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭
The greatest threat to the survival of numismatics as a viable hobby is the entrance of international organized crime into numismatics. Fake slabs and fake coins, or lower grade coins in fake slabs, or high grade counterfeit coins pose a real threat to our hobby, as numerous threads over the past several years have warned. I think many of the fakes from China or wherever have probably come from small operations. What happens when the real professional criminals team up with the best counterfeiters worldwide? I suspect coins in the several hundred to several thousand dollar range will be counterfeited in significant quantity (but probably not so great a quantity as to quickly depress the market - professional criminal aren't stupid, they don't want to kill the golden goose too quickly), as will top grading service slabs. The grading services have a dismal history so far of incorporating sophisticated security measures into their products. They, and many dealers and collectors, have put their heads in the sand, preferring to ignore the greatest threat to numismatics in the childish hope that it will go away.
Knowing your coins is a help, but it will protect few from the best counterfeits. It is the responsibility of the grading services to protect their product and they aren't doing a very good job. Slabs are going to have to incorporate many of the same technologies as currency.
Personally, I only buy coins from the most respected dealers and attempt to know as much about the history of the coin as possible as well as knowing the coin - including checking past auctions, but this isn't, practical for much of numismatics.
High quality counterfeit slabs and coins offer the prospect of easy money to criminals. Slabbed coins in the low and medium price range are easy to sell, and the security features of grading service slabs are a joke. The grading services are going to have to wake up and realize that when the professional criminals take notice of numismatics (if they haven't already), their, the services survival, will be at stake. As collectors and customers we have a responsibility to insist upon the incorporation of real security measures into to slabs.
Of course, there are other options, like: don't worry, be happy
Knowing your coins is a help, but it will protect few from the best counterfeits. It is the responsibility of the grading services to protect their product and they aren't doing a very good job. Slabs are going to have to incorporate many of the same technologies as currency.
Personally, I only buy coins from the most respected dealers and attempt to know as much about the history of the coin as possible as well as knowing the coin - including checking past auctions, but this isn't, practical for much of numismatics.
High quality counterfeit slabs and coins offer the prospect of easy money to criminals. Slabbed coins in the low and medium price range are easy to sell, and the security features of grading service slabs are a joke. The grading services are going to have to wake up and realize that when the professional criminals take notice of numismatics (if they haven't already), their, the services survival, will be at stake. As collectors and customers we have a responsibility to insist upon the incorporation of real security measures into to slabs.
Of course, there are other options, like: don't worry, be happy
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When I saw the thread title, I thought Longacre was at it again....
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
edit for
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
mine. i would consider the coin doctrs/artists and their pals to be a huge
threat.
if you have the money to buy high end coins the type of people i am
thinking of would be the biggest threat you have.
worked on proof gold, AT coins that you pay a ton of money for thinking
they are original, and dealers who lead you into buying over graded
coins.
cough
I will opine that there are dealers who happily sold several thousand dollars worth of high dollar coins that were easily transportable and then other dealers who paid for said coins with cash somewhere else in the world.
<< <i>i am not so sure your idea of the biggest threat to numis matches
mine. i would consider the coin doctrs/artists and their pals to be a huge
threat.
if you have the money to buy high end coins the type of people i am
thinking of would be the biggest threat you have.
worked on proof gold, AT coins that you pay a ton of money for thinking
they are original, and dealers who lead you into buying over graded
coins.
cough >>
It seems that very little is being done about the big time docs / artists. There's an effort to not slab their coins, but is anything being done to stop them from continuing their craft?
I guess there are some advantages to not playing in the high end of the coin market.
-Randy Newman
Regarding coin doctoring, Saintguru is a gold guy, and since I don't collect gold, I didn't follow his thread. I like to think I can spot doctored copper; and do a reasonably good job re nickel and silver. If I have any doubts whatsoever, I get help.
The key is to look at a lot of coins. If you look at enough of them in grades that interest you, you will notice certain features normally occur, such as wear pattern (if circulated), strike weakness, coin markers dealing with the dies used, color, etc.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Slabs are going to have to incorporate many of the same technologies as currency.
You mean the type that consumers can readliy recognize? I find it hard to believe that the major services do not have security features that allow them to quickly identify their own products.
BTW, at FUN this year, I watched a pair of high roller dealers (fancy pants, shirts, and ties) buy a $20,000+ $3 gold piece. They spent more time studying the slab than they did looking at the coin