The silent "Net Grade" of classic coins.....
stman
Posts: 11,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
I often wonder if it's been getting out of hand. Many of us know the services do it for cleaned/wiped/dipped classic coins. But even lately there have been posts
from folks that feel if it's in so-in-so's holder it's completely problem free. I'm not sure how this can be good for collectors trying to grade and know what the services
are looking for in any particular grade.
A lot of collectors AND dealers sometimes think their coin is undergraded, when in fact there are problems that account for the "under-grade." Perhaps with the new "Genuine"
holder this might be a way to BB more problem coins? I don't know, but when you see all these coins (even from the most popular dealers) stating "lightly cleaned long ago)
you can almost count on it being a hairlined mottled mess.
This thread will probably drop fast, just thinking out loud is all. Your thoughts?
from folks that feel if it's in so-in-so's holder it's completely problem free. I'm not sure how this can be good for collectors trying to grade and know what the services
are looking for in any particular grade.
A lot of collectors AND dealers sometimes think their coin is undergraded, when in fact there are problems that account for the "under-grade." Perhaps with the new "Genuine"
holder this might be a way to BB more problem coins? I don't know, but when you see all these coins (even from the most popular dealers) stating "lightly cleaned long ago)
you can almost count on it being a hairlined mottled mess.
This thread will probably drop fast, just thinking out loud is all. Your thoughts? Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
0
Comments
<< <i>I often wonder if it's been getting out of hand. Many of us know the services do it for cleaned/wiped/dipped classic coins. But even lately there have been posts
from folks that feel if it's in so-in-so's holder it's completely problem free. I'm not sure how this can be good for collectors trying to grade and know what the services
are looking for in any particular grade.
A lot of collectors AND dealers sometimes think their coin is undergraded, when in fact there are problems that account for the "under-grade." Perhaps with the new "Genuine"
holder this might be a way to BB more problem coins? I don't know, but when you see all these coins (even from the most popular dealers) stating "lightly cleaned long ago)
you can almost count on it being a hairlined mottled mess.
I agree. This has been part of the TPG paradigm for quite a while and there have been many members who have posted many coins over the years that were hardly problem-free, yet were in a respected TPG holder.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>I often wonder if it's been getting out of hand. Many of us know the services do it for cleaned/wiped/dipped classic coins. But even lately there have been posts
from folks that feel if it's in so-in-so's holder it's completely problem free. I'm not sure how this can be good for collectors trying to grade and know what the services
are looking for in any particular grade.
A lot of collectors AND dealers sometimes think their coin is undergraded, when in fact there are problems that account for the "under-grade." Perhaps with the new "Genuine"
holder this might be a way to BB more problem coins? I don't know, but when you see all these coins (even from the most popular dealers) stating "lightly cleaned long ago)
you can almost count on it being a hairlined mottled mess.
I agree completely. Whenever I see a coin that looks too nice for the grade on the holder, I redouble the search for the hidden issues. Sometimes I find them, sometimes I don't, but it's the first thing that crosses my mind when confronted with the superficially undergraded coin.
<< <i>A lot of folks learn to grade or are told to learn to grade by looking at coins in TPG holders that are already graded. How is one supposed to learn if you can't even trust the TPGs anymore. >>
I hear ya stman.
I think bajjerfan hits this one on the head.
I have been at shows and picked up coins in one of the top 2 holders and disagreed with the grade on the label.
When I offer say XF money for an XF coin in a holder that says AU on it many sellers have told me its an AU---look at the label.
When I try to show then the XF wear on the coin they tell me it can't be XF, the label says AU
I guess when I tell them I am buying the coin not the plastic and hand them back their coin they think I am just looking for a rip.
I would rather the top services net grade a coin AND SAY SO on their label. That would increase my respect for them immensely.
<< <i>
<< <i>I often wonder if it's been getting out of hand. Many of us know the services do it for cleaned/wiped/dipped classic coins. But even lately there have been posts
from folks that feel if it's in so-in-so's holder it's completely problem free. I'm not sure how this can be good for collectors trying to grade and know what the services
are looking for in any particular grade.
A lot of collectors AND dealers sometimes think their coin is undergraded, when in fact there are problems that account for the "under-grade." Perhaps with the new "Genuine"
holder this might be a way to BB more problem coins? I don't know, but when you see all these coins (even from the most popular dealers) stating "lightly cleaned long ago)
you can almost count on it being a hairlined mottled mess.
I agree completely. Whenever I see a coin that looks too nice for the grade on the holder, I redouble the search for the hidden issues. Sometimes I find them, sometimes I don't, but it's the first thing that crosses my mind when confronted with the superficially undergraded coin. >>
<< <i>I often wonder if it's been getting out of hand. Many of us know the services do it for cleaned/wiped/dipped classic coins. But even lately there have been posts
from folks that feel if it's in so-in-so's holder it's completely problem free. I'm not sure how this can be good for collectors trying to grade and know what the services
are looking for in any particular grade.
A lot of collectors AND dealers sometimes think their coin is undergraded, when in fact there are problems that account for the "under-grade." Perhaps with the new "Genuine"
holder this might be a way to BB more problem coins? I don't know, but when you see all these coins (even from the most popular dealers) stating "lightly cleaned long ago)
you can almost count on it being a hairlined mottled mess.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>I have an incredible example of a classic half eagle. Graded AU55, should be MS but the wipe lines are very obvious. >>
Last coin show I attended there was an old holder AU55 1795 flowing hair dollar pedigreed to a great collection. At first glance, the coin was obviously fully unc. It took tilting the coin to just the right angle to see all the wipe lines that caused the coin to be net graded down to AU.
Still, it would probably be MS61 these days. And that's what the dealer was asking for it.
<< <i>
<< <i>I have an incredible example of a classic half eagle. Graded AU55, should be MS but the wipe lines are very obvious. >>
Last coin show I attended there was an old holder AU55 1795 flowing hair dollar pedigreed to a great collection. At first glance, the coin was obviously fully unc. It took tilting the coin to just the right angle to see all the wipe lines that caused the coin to be net graded down to AU.
Still, it would probably be MS61 these days. And that's what the dealer was asking for it. >>
Sounds about right, mine has to be tilted as well. Mine is also in an old green holder, not that that makes any difference.
The state of Third Party Grading has become a sea of inconsistency and getting to the point where every slabbed coin has to be questioned one way or the other. The inconsistency is then followed by TPG double talk all working against the collector and for the dealer. Not much different than the pre-TPG days, only difference is the TPGs are now the dealer's partner in screwing collectors. Every coin sold by a dealer in a TPG holder is PQ or undergraded, and every coin bought by a dealer is an overgraded piece of crap. And due to the track record of the TPGs how can an un-knowledgeable collector stand a chance.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Now, if you're a collector/investor whose primary intent is to sell the coin for a profit somewhere down the road the importance of an assigned grade in a top TPG holder is vitally important. Affirmation, now and into the future, is virtually a prerequisite.
Dick
<< <i>Hey stman, stop thinking out loud. You will upset and confuse the youngin's. You know net grading doesn't really happen, just like AU62s don't exist.
The state of Third Party Grading has become a sea of inconsistency and getting to the point where every slabbed coin has to be questioned one way or the other. The inconsistency is then followed by TPG double talk all working against the collector and for the dealer. Not much different than the pre-TPG days, only difference is the TPGs are now the dealer's partner in screwing collectors. Every coin sold by a dealer in a TPG holder is PQ or undergraded, and every coin bought by a dealer is an overgraded piece of crap. And due to the track record of the TPGs how can an un-knowledgeable collector stand a chance. >>
A common friend of ours once told me that when he is done with his coins, he would like to sell them by auction with tape over the PCGS slab inserts, thereby hiding the assigned grades. Knowing his coins as I do (and you do), it would be a brilliant idea.
I do not think the situation is as dire as you indicate, but it's not great, either. These tightening and loosening cycles, along with stories of people repeatedly sending in a coin and getting a 63, then two bodybags, and then a 65 do nothing to inspire confidence in the certified product for the consumer.
33,200 1885-o Morgans in ms63 and 46,700 in ms64 41,700 1881-s Morgans in ms63 and 28,000 1887 Morgans in ms63. So why are folks submitting such enormous numbers of low grade common junk? Can there be THAT many coins of sentimental value? Twould indicate that many collectors have much to learn.
<< <i>A quick perusal of the Morgan pop reports shows that PCGS has graded:
33,200 1885-o Morgans in ms63 and 46,700 in ms64 41,700 1881-s Morgans in ms63 and 28,000 1887 Morgans in ms63. So why are folks submitting such enormous numbers of low grade common junk? Can there be THAT many coins of sentimental value? Twould indicate that many collectors have much to learn. >>
Now that the TPGs have drained all those dollars from collectors grading those common date common grade Morgans they have now convinced tens of thousands of collectors to spend their money on grading bullion of all things.
I'd venture to bet that the majority of those were sent in by dealers on their own accounts...probably via bulk purchases of orig rolls or even bags. In April 1990 those common 63's were still fetching $50 or more ($64's were at $100) so if you could get them graded in bulk there was a profit in them. At $45-$50 today and in bulk submission you can make some money on them. But if it were me, I'd leave them in the bag or rolls and sell raw.
My most noticeable net grade coin of recent memory that I owned was an 1803 half dime in AU58 by a top tier TPG. The coin had 15% luster left, no apparent rub with sharp strike, was cleaned pretty well in the past, and had some serious gouges and digs in the right obv field. At AU58 I felt the coin was all it could be. If sent back in raw I could see the coin getting BB'd. Curiously it was resubmitted by the next owner and went MS62. It was net graded as an AU58 imo and it made sense but at MS62 there were no signs of net grading whatsoever....just improperly grading.
I'd have to agree with the premise that all classics are net grading. You start with perfect MS70 and start taking off points.
roadrunner
a different tact at how a certain group of insiders can make money
off those who collect.
insider owned and managed tpgs simply react to what the insider
dealers want from them. this little circle of people doing whatever
it takes to make money.
what used to be BB, now gets holdered because that allows a profit.
now what used to get BB hands down can now get holdered as genuine because
that allows a profit.
these people who are supposedly respected and honored in this hobby
care more about making money then they do the collectors.
frankly i just do not care anymore and find it all sickening.
price guides of all types, holders with grades all over, submissions
that are always changing on a whim, the necessary cac thing, etc...
it all got old very fast and has turned me off from buying coins.
cant you see it now:
PCGS Genuine XXX, it should be in a regular holder. we have no idea
why it did not grade. we are only asking 60% of the AU55 price!
<< <i>cant you see it now:
PCGS Genuine XXX, it should be in a regular holder. we have no idea
why it did not grade. we are only asking 60% of the AU55 price! >>
Already have!
<< <i>
<< <i>cant you see it now:
PCGS Genuine XXX, it should be in a regular holder. we have no idea
why it did not grade. we are only asking 60% of the AU55 price! >>
Already have! >>
Considering it is a crap shoot whether or not such a coins gets holdered, I would rather buy it in the "Genuine" holder for 60% of the money than in the AU-55 holder for all of the money.
roadrunner
are, shall we say, optimistically over exuberant , in their
grading.
Camelot
roadrunner
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
<< <i>
<< <i>I have an incredible example of a classic half eagle. Graded AU55, should be MS but the wipe lines are very obvious. >>
Last coin show I attended there was an old holder AU55 1795 flowing hair dollar pedigreed to a great collection. At first glance, the coin was obviously fully unc. It took tilting the coin to just the right angle to see all the wipe lines that caused the coin to be net graded down to AU.
Still, it would probably be MS61 these days. And that's what the dealer was asking for it. >>
I've seen that dollar, too. I would not be surprised to see it in a mint state holder some day.
And when you try to sell an overgraded coin in the holder they only offer according to what they think the grade is, and when you go to sell an undergraded coin they only pay what the holder says the grade is.
<< <i>Whenever I see a coin that looks too nice for the grade on the holder, I redouble the search for the hidden issues. Sometimes I find them, sometimes I don't, but it's the first thing that crosses my mind when confronted with the superficially undergraded coin. >>
Nice to know I'm not the only one doing this. It's gotten to the point that I almost HOPE to find a hidden problem with the coin so I can make an informed decision. Truely undergraded coins aren't as common as many people think.