This VAM Thing is NUTS - I am re-thinking this idea of collecting Morgans

This is a VAM list for JUST the 1921 Morgan ( P )
I am sorry, I know I am going to be slammed, but I call it as I see it:
This VAM stuff (to me) seems to be simply a couple of guys with hyper-focus gone amok! Look at that List!
If you made a movie it would be "Anal Retention meets Obsessive-Compulsive"
As a comparison, I have (31/470K units) 2006 W Unc American Silver Eagles out of the SAME lot with a gouge in the same place. U don't need any glass to see it, it is out in plain sight. I'm looking at VAMs with 8 coins out of 8 Million called a VAM!
By all definitions these Coins below should be classified as a CB Variety (CoinBoy) , yet no TPG company sees fit to want to begin this name game.


I suppose it would require me to devote the remaining years of my life like the guys (VAM) to begin a cult-like following of EVERY miniscule imperfection of a US Mint ASE run.
Look, you have to admit, this VAM stuff is beyond strange/weird and borders on the need to take some medicine.
I am sorry, I know I am going to be slammed, but I call it as I see it:
This VAM stuff (to me) seems to be simply a couple of guys with hyper-focus gone amok! Look at that List!
If you made a movie it would be "Anal Retention meets Obsessive-Compulsive"
As a comparison, I have (31/470K units) 2006 W Unc American Silver Eagles out of the SAME lot with a gouge in the same place. U don't need any glass to see it, it is out in plain sight. I'm looking at VAMs with 8 coins out of 8 Million called a VAM!
By all definitions these Coins below should be classified as a CB Variety (CoinBoy) , yet no TPG company sees fit to want to begin this name game.


I suppose it would require me to devote the remaining years of my life like the guys (VAM) to begin a cult-like following of EVERY miniscule imperfection of a US Mint ASE run.
Look, you have to admit, this VAM stuff is beyond strange/weird and borders on the need to take some medicine.
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Comments
But I give you credit for finding a way to flog the 08/07 ASE in a thread that is supposedly about VAM's.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Come on!
a "1921-P VAM-3M Pitted Right Stars & E" ??!!!
Its Crazy and you know it!
Whoa! I'm not against profit on Coins!
I think the fact that Leroy and Mr. M managed to turn this obsession into a huge money machine is just fascinating (and absolutely head-shaking hilarious) to me...
Coins is a weird bid'ness!
What I don't understand about VAM pricing is that there is little correlation between the value and how dramatic the variety is. Take the 1878-P VAM 14.11 pictured.
Not exactly as visually dramatic as a Scarface. But there are about 10 known, and one just sold for $17K in AU58. Maybe it helps to have a cool name like this one - "Wild Eye Spikes".
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I think because I have a touch of obsessive-compulsive disorder (that all Coin Collectors seem to have within), it is scary as heck that I might catch this 'fever'
Apparently they didn't care and just plowed on with the research and the coin world followed!
If I send a Morgan in, is it wise (cost aside) to just select VAM attribution WITHOUT knowing if one is there on the Coin or not?
That is freak'n mind-blowing!
<< <i>So here is my next question.
If I send a Morgan in, is it wise (cost aside) to just select VAM attribution WITHOUT knowing if one is there on the Coin or not? >>
Not wise. Only send in the ones you know are attributed. You are throwing away money otherwise. And how will you know if they are attributed or not? Well, we are back to having to learn about VAMs.....
And therein lies the explaination why we VAM whackos are whackos.
<< <i>So here is my next question.
If I send a Morgan in, is it wise (cost aside) to just select VAM attribution WITHOUT knowing if one is there on the Coin or not? >>
Every Morgan is a VAM. Each combination of identified obverse and reverse dies used is assigned a VAM number. But of course, that could mean you might have an unknown combination of obverse/reverse dies - and therefore a discovery piece!
I think the VAM book was the first "specialty" coin book I purchased. It's an old one but signed to me by Leroy Van Allen. And I notice that our own CaptHenway was one of the contributors to that edition published about 25 years ago.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Best,
Sunnywood
P.S. Have a look at the Morgan set linked in my sig line ...
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
Give or take, only a couple of hundred of them amount to much.
Give or take, only about half of those are coins I take the time to really learn and be able to recognize.
Just the fact that you took the time to initiate the conversation for this topic shows that you are already hooked!!!!
BTW......There is NO cure!!!!!
Hell, I don't need to exercise.....I get enough just pushing my luck.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>Give or take, there are currently about 5,000 different VAMs that have been identified... but a couple of hundred new ones are identified every single year.
Give or take, only a couple of hundred of them amount to much.
Give or take, only about half of those are coins I take the time to really learn and be able to recognize. >>
See, only 50 coins to memorize....
<< <i>It's no different than collecting big copper or bust coinage by marriage. >>
On the contrary, it couldn't be more different. The hand-made dies of early coinage have significant and easily visible major individual features. The microscopic differences that distinguish most Morgan dies are very much less interesting. The concept of collecting by die marriage might be the same, but that's where the similarity ends.
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
Whelp, you are correct. Now it comes down to finding a correct dosage of medicine that will prevent me from collecting all 5,000 VAMS.
Joking aside, for the American Silver Eagle Series (1986-2008) (with the (31) gouged 2006 W Unc ASE Coins as an example) to have a start as a series with a Variety Attribution, it really requires 1-2 ASE fanatics to begin to catalogue and publish the Die pair variations that produced the various hub match-ups for these coins., right?
That said, it will still take acceptance by a majority of collectors (and TPG companies) i.e., enough people getting behind the kooks...err..I mean...the “devoted Numismatists” who begin this arduous work! This goes for any coin series, for that matter….
Jeez, I wonder if there are such people around like VA & M, that have begun to do this for any other coin series?
<< <i>
<< <i>It's no different than collecting big copper or bust coinage by marriage. >>
On the contrary, it couldn't be more different. The hand-made dies of early coinage have significant and easily visible major individual features. The microscopic differences that distinguish most Morgan dies are very much less interesting. The concept of collecting by die marriage might be the same, but that's where the similarity ends.
Best,
Sunnywood >>
The 1878 Morgan dies with the reverse of 1878 (VAMs 1 through 198) were pieced together from assorted hubs, were occasionally hand-modified, and often have some pretty wild features on them, all of which are discernable enough that people are able to pursue sets of all die marriages as well as die states of these marriages. Some of the boring ones happen to be rare and worth a lot of money, just like some of the rare bust coinage. Some of the exciting looking ones are not rare, just like bust coinage. 1878-S and to a lesser extent 1878-CC are also collected by die marriage.
With the rest of the series, there is much less interest in collecting an exhausitve die marriage set. Step forward to 1879 and there is very little to write home about coming out of Philadelphia. The few that are cool, people collect.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>I think the fact that Leroy and Mr. M managed to turn this obsession into a huge money machine is just fascinating (and absolutely head-shaking hilarious) to me...
Coins is a weird bid'ness! >>
I think collecting Vams is fascinating. They are just like a box of chocolates, your never really know what you might get. Thanks to Leroy and Mr. M, we are always looking through that chocolate box.
Here is one that Leroy had in his own personal collection.
<< <i>Well, I collect Morgans, but I couldn't care less about collecting VAM's. I'm not dissing those who collect them, and it could certainly keep someone busy ... but it's not for me. Of course, once upon a time, mintmarks were also considered by many to be irrelevant details !!
Best,
Sunnywood
P.S. Have a look at the Morgan set linked in my sig line ... >>
Kinda what he said.
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In contrast, the 1878-s and 78-cc Long Nocks are distinguished by an actual design feature, albeit a small detail. What is significant about that variety is not so much the "variety" aspect (again the arrow nock is not exactly the focal point of the coin) but that those were the first dies used to strike Morgans at the branch mints. So there is numismatic/historic significance. The 78-s is scarce and sought out, the 78-cc is common and is generally ignored by those who get all excited about clash marks, die scratches, tiny little die breaks (Donkey Tails eg.) and other such die state side effects, many of which are almost invisible without 30x magnification. Again, its all about whether the VAM is on their Top or Hot List. By the way, how many of the Top 100 got there because, well the Top 83 didn’t sound good?
CG
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Its not tedious; its fun! Seriously, I enjoyu sitting at the counter and searching through the junk buckets and common date boxes. Its a fun way to pass an afternoon... It can get very addictive though, and at times can get to be almost an obsession. >>
Now we're getting close to the truth .
AOCD= Almost obsessive compulsive disorder.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I just found a 02-O VAM-31A if that helps?........
Pretty cheap fun if you ask me. Of course, anybody probably wouldn't ask me. But that's fine, I have a good time all by myself.
-wes
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
The search for buried treasure is in all of us....There is nothing more satisfying than finding a super cool ultra rare variety
"La Vostra Nonna Ha Faccia Del Fungo"
<< <i>I spend allot of time on VAMWorld and here... my fiance calls it coin porn. >>
The PCGS forum, Vamworld, Heritage archives and a handful of various other coin sites are usually found opened in my browser group...(then after hours I may add one or 2...."other" websites to the mix!
<< <i>Sunnywood hit the nail on the head. What is the numismatic/historic signifcance of VAM 14.11? The key identifying attribute of that die marriage is the presence of some tiny tiny die scratches near Liberty's eye. But a VAM maven put it on his List so it suddenly took on an air of significance. >>
Sunnywood actually hit the nail off to the side and bent it. Go back and re-read my earlier post. The numismatic significance of VAM 14.11 is that it is known to be a rare die marriage in a series (1878 8TF) for which it is believed that all die marriages and scarcity thereof are now known. Its significance has nothing to do with the fact that someone added it to a "Top 100" list. Look at the 1878 VAM 9. It is the first Morgan dollar die marriage, identifiable by hand-engraved feathers. It is also one of the few US coins for which you can say on what date and at what time (within about 20 minutes) it was struck. There's some historical significance based on tiny hand-engraved feathers that look a little different from tiny, hand-engraved feathers found on other dies.
The Top 100, Hot 50, etc., lists were well thought out lists that were designed to make collecting Morgan dollar die varieties focused, approachable and fun. Heck the 1891-CC "Spitting Eagle" is the one specific variety that I say I could find within 10 minutes of parking my car at a show, but it has a silly identifiable feature, which makes it fun, and carries absolutely no premium. Some people have found fun elsewhere in the Morgan dollar series where in the past others have seen nothing of interest. 1921, which has the ugliest hubs used in the series, has proven fertile ground for the study of die deterioration. More recently, with the explosion of "scribbling scratches" discoveries, which even the biggest collector thereof has determined to be a maddening pursuit, we're seeing more about die preparation. Historical/numismatic significance? I suppose. Do I want to collect them all? Heck, no, but I do have a few that are pretty neat. Bottom line is to pursue what YOU perceive as fun in this hobby.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
CG
Now, THAT is funny
It would be even funnier, if his buddy said, "Yeah, lets mess with this Leroy guy a little".
"La Vostra Nonna Ha Faccia Del Fungo"
<< <i>"Yeah, lets mess with this Leroy guy a little". >>
"Good idea. How 'bout I add a few little squiggly lines in this wing here."
CG
insignificant
2.having no weight or effect;unimportant;trivial;as,insignificant rites.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.