This VAM Thing is NUTS - I am re-thinking this idea of collecting Morgans

COINB0Y · June 25, 2008 10:18AM

This is a VAM list for JUST the 1921 Morgan ( P )

I am sorry, I know I am going to be slammed, but I call it as I see it:

This VAM stuff (to me) seems to be simply a couple of guys with hyper-focus gone amok! Look at that List!

If you made a movie it would be "Anal Retention meets Obsessive-Compulsive"

As a comparison, I have (31/470K units) 2006 W Unc American Silver Eagles out of the SAME lot with a gouge in the same place. U don't need any glass to see it, it is out in plain sight. I'm looking at VAMs with 8 coins out of 8 Million called a VAM!

By all definitions these Coins below should be classified as a CB Variety (CoinBoy) , yet no TPG company sees fit to want to begin this name game.

I suppose it would require me to devote the remaining years of my life like the guys (VAM) to begin a cult-like following of EVERY miniscule imperfection of a US Mint ASE run.

Look, you have to admit, this VAM stuff is beyond strange/weird and borders on the need to take some medicine.

blu62vette · June 25, 2008 10:23AM

I collect VAMS but admit there are some that dont interest me but some that I think are beyond cool!!!!

BigE · June 25, 2008 10:27AM

They have a new 1921 VAM, it's number 1000, very rare because there is nothing odd about it

------------------BigE

kranky · June 25, 2008 10:28AM

EVERY Morgan is a VAM. Some are rare, some aren't.

But I give you credit for finding a way to flog the 08/07 ASE in a thread that is supposedly about VAM's.

COINB0Y · June 25, 2008 10:37AM

Kranky, when they list more than (1) variety of 2008 W with 2007 W Reverse, come back and call me on it.

Come on!

a "1921-P VAM-3M Pitted Right Stars & E" ??!!!

Its Crazy and you know it!

erroid · June 25, 2008 10:41AM

To each their own.... I happen to like the $$ realized from "picking" VAM's.

COINB0Y · June 25, 2008 10:41AM

kranky, just to set the record straight, those Coins above are the burnished 2006 W's

COINB0Y · June 25, 2008 10:44AM

I happen to like the $$ realized from "picking" VAM's.

Whoa! I'm not against profit on Coins!

I think the fact that Leroy and Mr. M managed to turn this obsession into a huge money machine is just fascinating (and absolutely head-shaking hilarious) to me...

Coins is a weird bid'ness!

kranky · June 25, 2008 10:49AM

They are all die varieties.

What I don't understand about VAM pricing is that there is little correlation between the value and how dramatic the variety is. Take the 1878-P VAM 14.11 pictured.

Not exactly as visually dramatic as a Scarface. But there are about 10 known, and one just sold for $17K in AU58. Maybe it helps to have a cool name like this one - "Wild Eye Spikes".

COINB0Y · June 25, 2008 10:57AM

Look, most of my post is in jest, I WAS WARNED by everyone last week about falling into the VAM pit.

I think because I have a touch of obsessive-compulsive disorder (that all Coin Collectors seem to have within), it is scary as heck that I might catch this 'fever'

DorkGirl · June 25, 2008 10:58AM

Just think of it as collecting die varieties. You can collect as many or as few as you want.

COINB0Y · June 25, 2008 11:01AM

What I sure would like to know about was the resistance from Collectors that Mr. Van Allen and Mr. Mallis must have met when they started.

Apparently they didn't care and just plowed on with the research and the coin world followed!

COINB0Y · June 25, 2008 11:03AM

So here is my next question.

If I send a Morgan in, is it wise (cost aside) to just select VAM attribution WITHOUT knowing if one is there on the Coin or not?

COINB0Y · June 25, 2008 11:05AM

one just sold for $17K in AU58. Maybe it helps to have a cool name like this one - "Wild Eye Spikes".

That is freak'n mind-blowing!

DorkGirl · June 25, 2008 11:13AM

<< So here is my next question.

If I send a Morgan in, is it wise (cost aside) to just select VAM attribution WITHOUT knowing if one is there on the Coin or not? >>

Not wise. Only send in the ones you know are attributed. You are throwing away money otherwise. And how will you know if they are attributed or not? Well, we are back to having to learn about VAMs.....

DennisH · June 25, 2008 11:14AM

Actually, the VAM 14.11 that just sold for $17,190 on eBay was an AU55 PCGS. If it were just a ho-hum, no-nothing generic 1878 8TF it would be worth about $75.

And therein lies the explaination why we VAM whackos are whackos.

ColonialCoinUnion · June 25, 2008 11:16AM

If you think the "VAM thing is NUTS" then by all means do not collect them. And vice versa.

kranky · June 25, 2008 11:22AM

<< So here is my next question.

If I send a Morgan in, is it wise (cost aside) to just select VAM attribution WITHOUT knowing if one is there on the Coin or not? >>

Every Morgan is a VAM. Each combination of identified obverse and reverse dies used is assigned a VAM number. But of course, that could mean you might have an unknown combination of obverse/reverse dies - and therefore a discovery piece!

I think the VAM book was the first "specialty" coin book I purchased. It's an old one but signed to me by Leroy Van Allen. And I notice that our own CaptHenway was one of the contributors to that edition published about 25 years ago.

Sunnywood · June 25, 2008 11:32AM

Well, I collect Morgans, but I couldn't care less about collecting VAM's. I'm not dissing those who collect them, and it could certainly keep someone busy ... but it's not for me. Of course, once upon a time, mintmarks were also considered by many to be irrelevant details !!

Best,
Sunnywood

P.S. Have a look at the Morgan set linked in my sig line ...

DennisH · June 25, 2008 11:34AM

Give or take, there are currently about 5,000 different VAMs that have been identified... but a couple of hundred new ones are identified every single year.

Give or take, only a couple of hundred of them amount to much.

Give or take, only about half of those are coins I take the time to really learn and be able to recognize.

eyoung429 · June 25, 2008 11:47AM

What is a VAM????

Just the fact that you took the time to initiate the conversation for this topic shows that you are already hooked!!!!

BTW......There is NO cure!!!!!

messydesk · June 25, 2008 11:48AM

It's no different than collecting big copper or bust coinage by marriage. A VAM number identifies the die marriage. Coins of 1878 in particular have been studied enough to shake out the mistakes, duplicates, and non-existant marriages and to discern their rarity. If you think the VAM 14.11 in AU being valued as it is due to spikes in the eye (which it isn't), wait until a VAM 14.17 surfaces in the same grade with almost no "cool" features and brings double. The 1823 O-113 bust half has no impressive features to speak of, and yet it is worth many multiples of a common variety. For the rest of the series, collectors have established what's cool and scarce and have used these lists (like the Top 100 and Hot 50) to focus on a manageable list of die marriages to care about. Some people like die clashes and die breaks and collect them even though some may have no premium.

DorkGirl · June 25, 2008 11:59AM

<< Give or take, there are currently about 5,000 different VAMs that have been identified... but a couple of hundred new ones are identified every single year.

Give or take, only a couple of hundred of them amount to much.

Give or take, only about half of those are coins I take the time to really learn and be able to recognize. >>

See, only 50 coins to memorize....

Bayard1908 · June 25, 2008 12:02PM

I applaud the scholarship that goes into identifying die varieties. That being said, I have no interest in collecting them.

Sunnywood · June 25, 2008 12:12PM

<< It's no different than collecting big copper or bust coinage by marriage. >>

On the contrary, it couldn't be more different. The hand-made dies of early coinage have significant and easily visible major individual features. The microscopic differences that distinguish most Morgan dies are very much less interesting. The concept of collecting by die marriage might be the same, but that's where the similarity ends.

Best,
Sunnywood

COINB0Y · June 25, 2008 12:26PM

Just the fact that you took the time to initiate the conversation for this topic shows that you are already hooked!!!!

Whelp, you are correct. Now it comes down to finding a correct dosage of medicine that will prevent me from collecting all 5,000 VAMS.

Joking aside, for the American Silver Eagle Series (1986-2008) (with the (31) gouged 2006 W Unc ASE Coins as an example) to have a start as a series with a Variety Attribution, it really requires 1-2 ASE fanatics to begin to catalogue and publish the Die pair variations that produced the various hub match-ups for these coins., right?

That said, it will still take acceptance by a majority of collectors (and TPG companies) i.e., enough people getting behind the kooks...err..I mean...the “devoted Numismatists” who begin this arduous work! This goes for any coin series, for that matter….

Jeez, I wonder if there are such people around like VA & M, that have begun to do this for any other coin series?

messydesk · June 25, 2008 12:44PM

<< 

<< It's no different than collecting big copper or bust coinage by marriage. >>

On the contrary, it couldn't be more different. The hand-made dies of early coinage have significant and easily visible major individual features. The microscopic differences that distinguish most Morgan dies are very much less interesting. The concept of collecting by die marriage might be the same, but that's where the similarity ends.

Best,
Sunnywood >>

The 1878 Morgan dies with the reverse of 1878 (VAMs 1 through 198) were pieced together from assorted hubs, were occasionally hand-modified, and often have some pretty wild features on them, all of which are discernable enough that people are able to pursue sets of all die marriages as well as die states of these marriages. Some of the boring ones happen to be rare and worth a lot of money, just like some of the rare bust coinage. Some of the exciting looking ones are not rare, just like bust coinage. 1878-S and to a lesser extent 1878-CC are also collected by die marriage.

With the rest of the series, there is much less interest in collecting an exhausitve die marriage set. Step forward to 1879 and there is very little to write home about coming out of Philadelphia. The few that are cool, people collect.

HighRelief · June 25, 2008 12:51PM

<< I think the fact that Leroy and Mr. M managed to turn this obsession into a huge money machine is just fascinating (and absolutely head-shaking hilarious) to me...

Coins is a weird bid'ness! >>

I think collecting Vams is fascinating. They are just like a box of chocolates, your never really know what you might get. Thanks to Leroy and Mr. M, we are always looking through that chocolate box.

Here is one that Leroy had in his own personal collection.

COINB0Y · June 25, 2008 12:56PM

Dang, that is nice...

cmerlo1 · June 25, 2008 1:01PM

I love 'em! 1901-O Micro O VAM-42. Purchased from a dealer scratch bowl for $16, sold for $631...keep in mind, this is believed to be a counterfeit coin...

BAJJERFAN · June 25, 2008 1:03PM

<< Well, I collect Morgans, but I couldn't care less about collecting VAM's. I'm not dissing those who collect them, and it could certainly keep someone busy ... but it's not for me. Of course, once upon a time, mintmarks were also considered by many to be irrelevant details !!

Best,
Sunnywood

P.S. Have a look at the Morgan set linked in my sig line ... >>

Kinda what he said.

Coxe · June 25, 2008 1:49PM

No more nuts than collecting large cents by Sheldon numbers. Just a mile more sophisticated than collecting by date and mint mark and TPG tag number. Most VAMs are not getting premiums even if they are catalogued. I know of only one colelctor for certain who is hellbent on getting every known variety in his collection.

CalGold · June 25, 2008 4:17PM

Sunnywood hit the nail on the head. What is the numismatic/historic signifcance of VAM 14.11? The key identifying attribute of that die marriage is the presence of some tiny tiny die scratches near Liberty's eye. But a VAM maven put it on his List so it suddenly took on an air of significance.

In contrast, the 1878-s and 78-cc Long Nocks are distinguished by an actual design feature, albeit a small detail. What is significant about that variety is not so much the "variety" aspect (again the arrow nock is not exactly the focal point of the coin) but that those were the first dies used to strike Morgans at the branch mints. So there is numismatic/historic significance. The 78-s is scarce and sought out, the 78-cc is common and is generally ignored by those who get all excited about clash marks, die scratches, tiny little die breaks (Donkey Tails eg.) and other such die state side effects, many of which are almost invisible without 30x magnification. Again, its all about whether the VAM is on their Top or Hot List. By the way, how many of the Top 100 got there because, well the Top 83 didn’t sound good?

CG

pennyannie · June 25, 2008 5:00PM

Sunnywood- 2 very impressive sets you have.

Connecticoin · June 25, 2008 11:05PM

If you stick to the Top 100 Morgan / Top 50 Peace that should keep it fun. I try to collect the "Naked Eye" VAMs -- the ones you do not need a loupe to see such as the 88-O Hot Lips, 90-CC Tailbar, or the 34-D VAM 4 DDO.

Raybob15239 · June 25, 2008 11:17PM

THe reason I got into VAMs is that I had nearly completed my Morgan set, needing only an 81CC, 93S, and 94P (I don't count the 95P). I couldn't afford those. I had an 82O/S and was trying to figure out what it was worth. A google search brought me to VAMWorld. I started looking through my set to identify what VAMs I had and that started it... I learned that I could buy more Morgans for my set for cheap prices...then I discovered my first new VAM and that was it. I was hooked. Started spending time going thru dealer junk boxes and cherrypicking. I particularly enjoy the 21D VAMs because there are a lot of interesting die breaks. To me, it the thrill of the hunt.

TwoSides2aCoin · June 25, 2008 11:20PM

VAMS are kind of like UFOs. Some people have seen them and some have been abducted by them.

Preussen · June 25, 2008 11:34PM

I’ve always loved Morgan Dollars, and although I don’t collect them toward any specific goal, I do have a few nice ones. I’m extremely impressed by the amount of research it took (and continues to take) to identify the varieties (VAMs) but doing so is far too tedious for my tastes. -Preussen

Raybob15239 · June 26, 2008 12:12AM

Its not tedious; its fun! Seriously, I enjoyu sitting at the counter and searching through the junk buckets and common date boxes. Its a fun way to pass an afternoon... It can get very addictive though, and at times can get to be almost an obsession.

TwoSides2aCoin · June 26, 2008 12:15AM

<< Its not tedious; its fun! Seriously, I enjoyu sitting at the counter and searching through the junk buckets and common date boxes. Its a fun way to pass an afternoon... It can get very addictive though, and at times can get to be almost an obsession. >>

Now we're getting close to the truth .

AOCD= Almost obsessive compulsive disorder.

just teasing you raybob.

Raybob15239 · June 26, 2008 12:17AM

My fiancee would agree with you.

guitarwes · June 26, 2008 12:18AM

I just found a 02-O VAM-31A if that helps?........

Pretty cheap fun if you ask me. Of course, anybody probably wouldn't ask me. But that's fine, I have a good time all by myself.

-wes

Raybob15239 · June 26, 2008 12:19AM

I spend allot of time on VAMWorld and here... my fiance calls it coin porn.

lkrarecoins · June 26, 2008 12:22AM

Knowledge is King, my friend......and as long as their are hundreds, if not thousands of Vammers out there, there will always a market for these.

The search for buried treasure is in all of us....There is nothing more satisfying than finding a super cool ultra rare variety

For profit and bragging rights

Newcomp103 · June 26, 2008 12:23AM

<< I spend allot of time on VAMWorld and here... my fiance calls it coin porn. >>

The PCGS forum, Vamworld, Heritage archives and a handful of various other coin sites are usually found opened in my browser group...(then after hours I may add one or 2...."other" websites to the mix!

messydesk · June 26, 2008 12:59AM

<< Sunnywood hit the nail on the head. What is the numismatic/historic signifcance of VAM 14.11? The key identifying attribute of that die marriage is the presence of some tiny tiny die scratches near Liberty's eye. But a VAM maven put it on his List so it suddenly took on an air of significance. >>

Sunnywood actually hit the nail off to the side and bent it. Go back and re-read my earlier post. The numismatic significance of VAM 14.11 is that it is known to be a rare die marriage in a series (1878 8TF) for which it is believed that all die marriages and scarcity thereof are now known. Its significance has nothing to do with the fact that someone added it to a "Top 100" list. Look at the 1878 VAM 9. It is the first Morgan dollar die marriage, identifiable by hand-engraved feathers. It is also one of the few US coins for which you can say on what date and at what time (within about 20 minutes) it was struck. There's some historical significance based on tiny hand-engraved feathers that look a little different from tiny, hand-engraved feathers found on other dies.

The Top 100, Hot 50, etc., lists were well thought out lists that were designed to make collecting Morgan dollar die varieties focused, approachable and fun. Heck the 1891-CC "Spitting Eagle" is the one specific variety that I say I could find within 10 minutes of parking my car at a show, but it has a silly identifiable feature, which makes it fun, and carries absolutely no premium. Some people have found fun elsewhere in the Morgan dollar series where in the past others have seen nothing of interest. 1921, which has the ugliest hubs used in the series, has proven fertile ground for the study of die deterioration. More recently, with the explosion of "scribbling scratches" discoveries, which even the biggest collector thereof has determined to be a maddening pursuit, we're seeing more about die preparation. Historical/numismatic significance? I suppose. Do I want to collect them all? Heck, no, but I do have a few that are pretty neat. Bottom line is to pursue what YOU perceive as fun in this hobby.

CalGold · June 26, 2008 1:11AM

Messydesk, you comments about VAM 9 just proved my point, but you don't realize it. VAM 9 is numismatically/historically significant because it is the first design variety of the series struck--it is the original Morgan. Now tell me what the significance of the 14.11 die marriage is, because the best I can figure is that one day the coin press operator said to his buddy, "Hand me one of those Morgan obverse dies, would you." And his buddy said. "Here you go."

CG

lkrarecoins · June 26, 2008 1:30AM

Hand me one of those Morgan obverse dies, would you." And his buddy said. "Here you go."

Now, THAT is funny

It would be even funnier, if his buddy said, "Yeah, lets mess with this Leroy guy a little".

CalGold · June 26, 2008 1:36AM

<< "Yeah, lets mess with this Leroy guy a little". >>

"Good idea. How 'bout I add a few little squiggly lines in this wing here."

CG

mr1931S · June 26, 2008 1:57AM

I recommend that the collector draw the line at some point. Lets face it, some of these varieties are just plain insignificant. And, I would add that Morgan dollars is not the only series with plenty of insignificant varieties.

insignificant

2.having no weight or effect;unimportant;trivial;as,insignificant rites.

DennisH · June 26, 2008 2:08AM

How can you define "significant" with any more one-size-fits-all application than you can beauty? It's totally up to each individual to decide for themselves.

This VAM Thing is NUTS - I am re-thinking this idea of collecting Morgans

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