From the recent Doug Winter blog-- can advance notice of coins in a shipwreck hoard be used to manip
Longacre
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I was taking a look at the most recent Doug Winter blog about the salvaging of gold coins from the shipwreck, SS New York. As always, Winter's blogs are chipper, upbeat, and commonly give the readers of such blogs a Numismatic Smile from ear to ear.
As positively as this particular blog was written, I was wondering if the unseemly, dark underbelly of the numismatic world can use certain information to their advantage prior to that information becoming public. I work closely with Winter, so I am certainly not implying that anything is amiss. I am merely asking whether someone with less of a moral compass can use information to their advantage.
For example, in the blog, Winter implies that relatively few individuals and dealers knew the true content of this shipwreck hoard. Does anyone think that certain positions in particular series of coins (or date/mintmark combinations) can be taken by dealers if they know that the market will react a certain way from the contents of the hoards? Although it seems that this shipwreck is a big yawn in terms of the impact on the market, how would things be different if a different combination of coins were found? At what point should such confidential information on the contents of a hoard be kept under wraps, or not disclosed to active dealers until the last possible minute?
Here is the blog:
June 21, 2008
I recently learned that the coins from the shipwreck S.S. New York will be sold by Stack’s in July at this firm’s pre-ANA auction. Unlike some of the other shipwrecks that have been uncovered in recent years, the coins found on the S.S. New York will have an impact on the branch mint gold market.
According to information gleaned from the NGC website, the S.S. New York was a light cargo and passenger ship vessel that operated between New Orleans and Galveston. It was destroyed during a hurricane on September 7, 1846. Seventeen crew members were killed and “thirty to forty thousand dollars in gold, silver and bank notes” were lost according to contemporary reports.
What is especially interesting about these coins is that they represent one of the most eclectic, diverse cross-sections of coins in circulation during the first part of the 19th century that has ever been found. Unlike the S.S. Republic and S.S. Central America, the coins in this group tend to be smaller denomination and much of the gold was produced in Dahlonega and the local New Orleans mint.(Even more interesting is the fact that only two Charlotte issues were included. This should tell us something about the geographic distribution of Charlotte coins).
The coins have been curated by NCS and, according to the reports that I’ve read, numismatists such as John Albanese, David Bowers and Mark Salzburg have commented on how exceptional they are from the standpoint of quality. In fact, Albanese was quoted as saying “...many of them look like they were just minted yesterday.”
NGC just published the first census of these S.S. New York coins and, from the look of it, there are some extremely interesting pieces that will be available. In my opinion, some of the gold coin highlights are as follows:
1845-D Quarter Eagle, NGC MS64
1840-D Half Eagle, NGC MS62
1842-D Large Date Half Eagle, NGC MS61
Two 1843-O Small Letters Half Eagles in NGC MS62
1844-D Half Eagle, NGC MS63*PL
Seventeen Uncirculated 1844-O Half Eagles including two in MS64
Six Uncirculated 1845-O Half Eagles including an MS63
Six Uncirculated 1844-O Eagles including two in MS63
Four Uncirculated 1845-O Eagles
How will the presence of these coins affect the market for branch mint gold? I believe that this group will be a real shot in the arm. First and foremost, it will focus positive attention on branch mint gold. Secondly, it is likely to attract new buyers who will be interested in the coins because of the shipwreck provenance. These buyers probably have never bought a branch mint gold coin (other than a San Francisco double eagle) before and their new purchase could possibly spur them on to collect other branch mint gold coins. Thirdly, it will add some much needed new product into the market. If you collect branch mint gold, you know how few really nice coins have been available in recent years and coins of this quality are sure to be readily appreciated by collectors, dealers and investors alike.
The two things that interest me most about these coins is how nice are they and whether the NCS curation make them look more like modern mint products than 150+ year old southern gold coins. One of my major past complaints about shipwreck gold coins is that I just haven’t liked the unoriginal look they possess. For every lovely 1856-S or 1857-S S.S. Central America double eagle I’ve seen in MS64 or MS65, I’ve seen high grade double eagles (and eagles) from other shipwrecks that have been enthusiastically graded and just not appealing to my eyes. If the coins are as nice as John Albanese and other experts say they are, then the bidding for the coins will be an interesting head-to-head competition between purists like myself and shipwreck coin specialists.
A few collectors have asked me if the quantity of coins from this shipwreck worries me. The answer to this is most definitely “no.” If you look at a full census of the coins that NGC has graded (it can be read at www.ngccoin.com) you will note that very few coins have quantities of more than ten pieces. The most plentiful issues from the shipwreck tend to be those that are already common (like the 1843-O Small Date quarter eagle, the 1843 half eagle and the 1844-O half eagle) so another dozen or so coins will hardly affect the rarity of these issues.
I am curious to see what the impact of six Uncirculated 1845-O half eagles and six 1844-O eagles will have on the market. Given the fact that I think I could sell all twelve of these coins by myself, I’m willing to bet that they will be easily absorbed into the market and will actually serve to raise prices for these two issues rather than lower them.
I’ve mostly sat out the Shipwreck Coin Stampede that has had a major impact on the gold coin market in the last decade. I am excited to finally have a wreck o’ my own and I am really looking forward to viewing the coins in Baltimore next month.
Doug Winter
6/21/08
www.raregoldcoins.com
For more information on U.S. gold coins please contact me via email at dwn@ont.com
As positively as this particular blog was written, I was wondering if the unseemly, dark underbelly of the numismatic world can use certain information to their advantage prior to that information becoming public. I work closely with Winter, so I am certainly not implying that anything is amiss. I am merely asking whether someone with less of a moral compass can use information to their advantage.
For example, in the blog, Winter implies that relatively few individuals and dealers knew the true content of this shipwreck hoard. Does anyone think that certain positions in particular series of coins (or date/mintmark combinations) can be taken by dealers if they know that the market will react a certain way from the contents of the hoards? Although it seems that this shipwreck is a big yawn in terms of the impact on the market, how would things be different if a different combination of coins were found? At what point should such confidential information on the contents of a hoard be kept under wraps, or not disclosed to active dealers until the last possible minute?
Here is the blog:
June 21, 2008
I recently learned that the coins from the shipwreck S.S. New York will be sold by Stack’s in July at this firm’s pre-ANA auction. Unlike some of the other shipwrecks that have been uncovered in recent years, the coins found on the S.S. New York will have an impact on the branch mint gold market.
According to information gleaned from the NGC website, the S.S. New York was a light cargo and passenger ship vessel that operated between New Orleans and Galveston. It was destroyed during a hurricane on September 7, 1846. Seventeen crew members were killed and “thirty to forty thousand dollars in gold, silver and bank notes” were lost according to contemporary reports.
What is especially interesting about these coins is that they represent one of the most eclectic, diverse cross-sections of coins in circulation during the first part of the 19th century that has ever been found. Unlike the S.S. Republic and S.S. Central America, the coins in this group tend to be smaller denomination and much of the gold was produced in Dahlonega and the local New Orleans mint.(Even more interesting is the fact that only two Charlotte issues were included. This should tell us something about the geographic distribution of Charlotte coins).
The coins have been curated by NCS and, according to the reports that I’ve read, numismatists such as John Albanese, David Bowers and Mark Salzburg have commented on how exceptional they are from the standpoint of quality. In fact, Albanese was quoted as saying “...many of them look like they were just minted yesterday.”
NGC just published the first census of these S.S. New York coins and, from the look of it, there are some extremely interesting pieces that will be available. In my opinion, some of the gold coin highlights are as follows:
1845-D Quarter Eagle, NGC MS64
1840-D Half Eagle, NGC MS62
1842-D Large Date Half Eagle, NGC MS61
Two 1843-O Small Letters Half Eagles in NGC MS62
1844-D Half Eagle, NGC MS63*PL
Seventeen Uncirculated 1844-O Half Eagles including two in MS64
Six Uncirculated 1845-O Half Eagles including an MS63
Six Uncirculated 1844-O Eagles including two in MS63
Four Uncirculated 1845-O Eagles
How will the presence of these coins affect the market for branch mint gold? I believe that this group will be a real shot in the arm. First and foremost, it will focus positive attention on branch mint gold. Secondly, it is likely to attract new buyers who will be interested in the coins because of the shipwreck provenance. These buyers probably have never bought a branch mint gold coin (other than a San Francisco double eagle) before and their new purchase could possibly spur them on to collect other branch mint gold coins. Thirdly, it will add some much needed new product into the market. If you collect branch mint gold, you know how few really nice coins have been available in recent years and coins of this quality are sure to be readily appreciated by collectors, dealers and investors alike.
The two things that interest me most about these coins is how nice are they and whether the NCS curation make them look more like modern mint products than 150+ year old southern gold coins. One of my major past complaints about shipwreck gold coins is that I just haven’t liked the unoriginal look they possess. For every lovely 1856-S or 1857-S S.S. Central America double eagle I’ve seen in MS64 or MS65, I’ve seen high grade double eagles (and eagles) from other shipwrecks that have been enthusiastically graded and just not appealing to my eyes. If the coins are as nice as John Albanese and other experts say they are, then the bidding for the coins will be an interesting head-to-head competition between purists like myself and shipwreck coin specialists.
A few collectors have asked me if the quantity of coins from this shipwreck worries me. The answer to this is most definitely “no.” If you look at a full census of the coins that NGC has graded (it can be read at www.ngccoin.com) you will note that very few coins have quantities of more than ten pieces. The most plentiful issues from the shipwreck tend to be those that are already common (like the 1843-O Small Date quarter eagle, the 1843 half eagle and the 1844-O half eagle) so another dozen or so coins will hardly affect the rarity of these issues.
I am curious to see what the impact of six Uncirculated 1845-O half eagles and six 1844-O eagles will have on the market. Given the fact that I think I could sell all twelve of these coins by myself, I’m willing to bet that they will be easily absorbed into the market and will actually serve to raise prices for these two issues rather than lower them.
I’ve mostly sat out the Shipwreck Coin Stampede that has had a major impact on the gold coin market in the last decade. I am excited to finally have a wreck o’ my own and I am really looking forward to viewing the coins in Baltimore next month.
Doug Winter
6/21/08
www.raregoldcoins.com
For more information on U.S. gold coins please contact me via email at dwn@ont.com
Always took candy from strangers
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
0
Comments
just got more common.
a few low MS is not that exciting as they are not to my knowledge finest knowns.
pops just got a bit higher for all of them.
i cannot speak for the eagles.
but all i know is if that i owned two of the half eagle dates in the list.. they are not rare :-|
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curated by NCS yet slabbed by NGC. heh. shipwreck coins in normal holders.
amazing isn't it? i guess copper and silver alloyed in gold just did not get affected eh?
one has to wonder why other shipwreck coins were properly labeled as such and put
in a proper net graded holder? hmm
or am i wrong on this?
I'm with fc though, I wish that they would be net graded. Seems kind of artificial to clean them. Yes I know, gold does not corrode so it should be ok.
in a proper net graded holder? hmm
The gold coins of the SS Central America, Brother Jonathon, and SS Republic were all placed in regular holders (not net grade). The silver coins of the SS Republic landed in the famous "shipwreck effect" holders at NGC.
I'm with fc though, I wish that they would be net graded. Seems kind of artificial to clean them. Yes I know, gold does not corrode so it should be ok.
Historically, gold coins that are conserved to remove encrustation from the elements have not been considered to be "cleaned" by the numismatic community.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
in a proper net graded holder? hmm
The gold coins of the SS Central America, Brother Jonathon, and SS Republic were all placed in regular holders (not net grade). The silver coins of the SS Republic landed in the famous "shipwreck effect" holders at NGC.
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Those are the ones I remember so strongly. Good info on the rest.
thanks.
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I'm with fc though, I wish that they would be net graded. Seems kind of artificial to clean them. Yes I know, gold does not corrode so it should be ok.
Historically, gold coins that are conserved to remove encrustation from the elements have not been considered to be "cleaned" by the numismatic community.
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The numismatic community eh? Or do you mean the TPGs and dealers?
This numismatic community of one thinks they should be properly
labeled and I wonder what an unbiased expert thinks of a side
by side comparison of a shipwreck MS62 and a non shipwreck MS62?
The other metals in the alloy could not have remained as stable
as gold? (maybe the alloy was mixed so well it did remain stable..)
either way... always interesting, these shipwreck stories.
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Answer to Doug's question : Yer doggone right !
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Not in this case, the numbers are just too small. However, if a bunch of CC-Morgans were found to still be in the possession of the mint, and they represented about 50% of the total mintage, then that information could be used to sell before the newly discovered coins hit the market.
have anything but a positive effect?
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The numismatic community eh? Or do you mean the TPGs and dealers?
As an example, the Baltimore Hoard of gold coins, discovered in 1934, was encrusted with dirt and grime and had to be conserved prior to its sale. Nonetheless, the coins were enthusiastically purchased by dealer AND collectors for strong money for that era. Read more about it in Coinosaurus' book.
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As an example, the Baltimore Hoard of gold coins, discovered in 1934, was encrusted with dirt and grime and had to be conserved prior to its sale. Nonetheless, the coins were enthusiastically purchased by dealer AND collectors for strong money for that era. Read more about it in Coinosaurus' book. >>
Only in coins is 'restored to original condition' considered something bad....
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<< <i>
As an example, the Baltimore Hoard of gold coins, discovered in 1934, was encrusted with dirt and grime and had to be conserved prior to its sale. Nonetheless, the coins were enthusiastically purchased by dealer AND collectors for strong money for that era. Read more about it in Coinosaurus' book. >>
Only in coins is 'restored to original condition' considered something bad.... >>
that is an oxymoron to me. sorta of like jumbo shrimp and so on and so on.
in some pursuits like furniture to restore a desk and sell it as original
would ruin a dealer's reputation, right?