Ut Oh!!! Here comes another "Dealer Rant" **UPDATE**
gecko109
Posts: 8,231 ✭
I was lucky enough to aquire 5 gold pandas today at my local B&M. All 5 are 1995 1 ounce pandas in original mint packaging. Just a quick background on these. Its the 2nd rarest of the 27 year run of pandas (17,000 mintage), and 2 certified NGC 69's recently sold on ebay at $1598, and $1575. Anyway, I called the country's largest distributor of pandas, PandaAmerica, and just got off the phone with them slightly puzzled. After describing my find, and inquiring at what price they were willing to pay for any or all of them, I got an offer of $920 each. Guess what? They have one listed in their inventory at $1726 right now! Come on! Play fair PandaAmerica. You want to sell YOUR pandas as rare and important pieces, but you want to buy them for around melt? Not good business practice IMHO. So off to PCGS these 5 pandas go, and onto ebay where I will get FAIR MARKET VALUE!
P.S.- I countered with an ask price of $1325 each for them, to which the gentleman promptly replied "No way would I buy them near that price". Hmmmm....buy at $1325, sell at $1726, that works out to be a $401 mark-up unless my math is fuzzy.
Edited to add pics:
P.S.- I countered with an ask price of $1325 each for them, to which the gentleman promptly replied "No way would I buy them near that price". Hmmmm....buy at $1325, sell at $1726, that works out to be a $401 mark-up unless my math is fuzzy.
Edited to add pics:
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Comments
Edited to add, not that there's anything wrong with that
<< <i>listed and sold for are two different things. At there peek the "rare" bullion are offten a hard sale and on the down swings people still try to sell at there peek prices thinking there just a week away from the up swing. >>
Correct. Thats why I included two recent SALES of this year panda from ebay. One at $1598, and one at $1575. PandaAmerica offered me $920. Do you think this sounds fair?
<< <i>"rare" bullion
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That's always funny.
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
<< <i>You sure are starting to sound more like a dealer than a collector yourself there Gecko!
Edited to add, not that there's anything wrong with that
Yes Rob, I bought the 1st one for my personal collection, but bought the other 4 with intent to flip. I got them all at just 3% above melt, so couldnt pass on the opportunity. The profits from selling the 4 will allow me to keep the 5th one for free, plus put a few bucks in my pocket.
morality
responsibility
accountability
and several other virtues that are no longer in existance.
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Yes Rob, I bought the 1st one for my personal collection, but bought the other 4 with intent to flip. I got them all at just 3% above melt, so couldnt pass on the opportunity. The profits from selling the 4 will allow me to keep the 5th one for free, plus put a few bucks in my pocket.
Good for you! Sounds like ebay is the way to go for you.
That panda dealership was willing to pay 2% above melt.
There is not a whole lot of difference there.
Now, don't get me wrong, I can see your point...but a complaint about how much profit the other guy makes is a suitable excuse for you not to do business there. I'm not certain I agree that their business model is fundamentally flawed. Their business model is not compatible with your expectation of a quick easy flip of four coins with no risk.
Congratulations on the score. Now go dump them on the wasteground that is eBay!!!
I wish I was at Long Beach.
Sure, they want a ton of profit, who doesn't. As for buying just to flip....well, go ebay. If you are buying from a dealer, to flip to a dealer, it isn't often that you can make a pretty penny. If you see them selling on ebay for that price, do sell there and make your money.
Not worth the whine nor worry otherwise.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>Well, you paid 3% above melt.
That panda dealership was willing to pay 2% above melt.
There is not a whole lot of difference there.
Now, don't get me wrong, I can see your point...but a complaint about how much profit the other guy makes is a suitable excuse for you not to do business there. I'm not certain I agree that their business model is fundamentally flawed. Their business model is not compatible with your expectation of a quick easy flip of four coins with no risk.
Congratulations on the score. Now go dump them on the wasteground that is eBay!!!
I wish I was at Long Beach. >>
If you just bought 5, 2008/reverse '07 ASE's at your local B&M for $20 each, then contacted a major dealer and was offered, lets say $150 each knowing they bring much more than that on ebay, wouldnt you feel slightly insulted at the lowball offer? I guess dealers can offer whatever they want on anything, but when they offer $920 for the same coin on their website thats listed for $1726, its painfully obvious they are not interested in playing fair.
<< <i>So, let me get this straight, you bought bullion at melt and got upset when you were offered melt for your bullion? >>
Sell me all of your 1995-W silver eagle BULLION coins at melt.
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<< <i>So, let me get this straight, you bought bullion at melt and got upset when you were offered melt for your bullion? >>
Sell me all of your 1995-W silver eagle BULLION coins at melt.
I'd be more than happy to if I bought them at melt. So, no, I don't get your point.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
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<< <i>So, let me get this straight, you bought bullion at melt and got upset when you were offered melt for your bullion? >>
Sell me all of your 1995-W silver eagle BULLION coins at melt.
I'd be more than happy to if I bought them at melt. So, no, I don't get your point. >>
HAHAHA!!!! So if you bought a few 1995-W ASE's at melt, you would be HAPPY to resell them at melt? Im not sure if you are just ignorant of the value, or if you are serious.
<< <i>Why didn't YOU pay a fair price for them?
I asked the dealer how much he wanted, he gave me the price, I bought them. Seems fair to me.
what do you think he paid for them
quit gripping and sell them on ebay you you Dealer you.......
Joe
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
<< <i>Haven't I seen you offer melt plus 1% on here? >>
Not me. I have NEVER once offered, nor paid melt +1% on gold pandas. I pay between 3% up to 15% over melt. Sometimes ALOT more if the date is a key, and I need it for my collection.
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HAHAHA!!!! So if you bought a few 1995-W ASE's at melt, you would be HAPPY to resell them at melt? Im not sure if you are just ignorant of the value, or if you are serious. >>
Not really, but it seemed like you were comparing the prices for your raw coins to those in ms69 holders. Is it assumed that any raw panda is an ms69? I probably wouldn't offer much for coins I couldn't see that weren't in a top tier 69 holder already.
<< <i>wow you bought them at 3% over spot
what do you think he paid for them
quit gripping and sell them on ebay you you Dealer you.......
Based on past dealings with this guy, im certain he took them in at 97%. He is a very fair guy on both sides of the equation, a rarity these days. They will be off to PCGS tomorrow and on ebay within 2 weeks or so. If one of them comes back a 70, it will make my whole year!
lou
ANA Life-Member
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<< <i>wow you bought them at 3% over spot
what do you think he paid for them
quit gripping and sell them on ebay you you Dealer you.......
Based on past dealings with this guy, im certain he took them in at 97%. He is a very fair guy on both sides of the equation, a rarity these days. They will be off to PCGS tomorrow and on ebay within 2 weeks or so. If one of them comes back a 70, it will make my whole year! >>
If he took them in at 97% then he ripped someone off, right? How does that make him a fair guy?
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
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<< <i>
HAHAHA!!!! So if you bought a few 1995-W ASE's at melt, you would be HAPPY to resell them at melt? Im not sure if you are just ignorant of the value, or if you are serious. >>
Not really, but it seemed like you were comparing the prices for your raw coins to those in ms69 holders. Is it assumed that any raw panda is an ms69? I probably wouldn't offer much for coins I couldn't see that weren't in a top tier 69 holder already. >>
Now thats an EXCELLENT point clarkbar! No, its not assumed that all raw pandas are at least 69. However, it would really shock me if any of the 5 coins comes back less than 69. These are all still sealed in the mint plastic and have zero dings. A couple of them DO have some very minor copper spotting, but I think that would only preclude them from a 70, but not enough to keep them out of 69. However, PandaAmerica has a raw one on their site listed for $1726, so there is a comparable.
<< <i>f he took them in at 97% then he ripped someone off, right? How does that make him a fair guy?
>>
fair guy as for Gecko to make money off
so him rippen someone is ok ,but someone rippen gecko is off base
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<< <i>wow you bought them at 3% over spot
what do you think he paid for them
quit gripping and sell them on ebay you you Dealer you.......
Based on past dealings with this guy, im certain he took them in at 97%. He is a very fair guy on both sides of the equation, a rarity these days. They will be off to PCGS tomorrow and on ebay within 2 weeks or so. If one of them comes back a 70, it will make my whole year! >>
If he took them in at 97% then he ripped someone off, right? How does that make him a fair guy? >>
This guy is a bullion dealer, not a rare coin dealer. He doesnt care about "rare dates" or "low mintages". He pays 97% on gold bullion, and sells it at about 3%-7% above melt depending on the type (GAE, Kruger, Maple, Panda, etc.). Ask any dealer in the business if the 97% IN, 103% OUT is fair. There are alot of snakes here locally who pay MUCH less. As an example, another local bullion dealer offered me $65 each on my 1/10th GAE's about a month ago. Now thats a ripoff artist in his prime!
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<< <i>
<< <i>wow you bought them at 3% over spot
what do you think he paid for them
quit gripping and sell them on ebay you you Dealer you.......
Based on past dealings with this guy, im certain he took them in at 97%. He is a very fair guy on both sides of the equation, a rarity these days. They will be off to PCGS tomorrow and on ebay within 2 weeks or so. If one of them comes back a 70, it will make my whole year! >>
If he took them in at 97% then he ripped someone off, right? How does that make him a fair guy? >>
This guy is a bullion dealer, not a rare coin dealer. He doesnt care about "rare dates" or "low mintages". He pays 97% on gold bullion, and sells it at about 3%-7% above melt depending on the type (GAE, Kruger, Maple, Panda, etc.). Ask any dealer in the business if the 97% IN, 103% OUT is fair. There are alot of snakes here locally who pay MUCH less. As an example, another local bullion dealer offered me $65 each on my 1/10th GAE's about a month ago. Now thats a ripoff artist in his prime! >>
Regardless, if he paid 97% then someone got ripped off. It's inevitable. For you to get a great price, someone had to get ripped off.
edited to add: That dealer offering you $920 was trying to make YOU be the "someone" whoe gets ripped off. You are aware enough to avoid being that person. Just take your business elsewhere. eBay is probably your best bet!
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
<< <i>
<< <i>
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<< <i>So, let me get this straight, you bought bullion at melt and got upset when you were offered melt for your bullion? >>
Sell me all of your 1995-W silver eagle BULLION coins at melt.
I'd be more than happy to if I bought them at melt. So, no, I don't get your point. >>
HAHAHA!!!! So if you bought a few 1995-W ASE's at melt, you would be HAPPY to resell them at melt? Im not sure if you are just ignorant of the value, or if you are serious. >>
Of course I'm serious. Bullion is bullion. The sell price should be based on the buy price. Isn't that what you keep harping on and on ad infinitum about when dealers try to sell you a coin at more than bid when "everyone" knows he paid 20% back? (I don't know how everyone knows this but that is a different thread.)
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<< <i>So, let me get this straight, you bought bullion at melt and got upset when you were offered melt for your bullion? >>
Sell me all of your 1995-W silver eagle BULLION coins at melt.
I'd be more than happy to if I bought them at melt. So, no, I don't get your point. >>
HAHAHA!!!! So if you bought a few 1995-W ASE's at melt, you would be HAPPY to resell them at melt? Im not sure if you are just ignorant of the value, or if you are serious. >>
Of course I'm serious. Bullion is bullion. The sell price should be based on the buy price. Isn't that what you keep harping on and on ad infinitum about when dealers try to sell you a coin at more than bid when "everyone" knows he paid 20% back? (I don't know how everyone knows this but that is a different thread.) >>
And do you know what the overwhelming response is to those complaints? Sell the coin to a specialist in the field and they will pay far above sheet. Well, here we are. A very scarce coin, in fact second rarest of all the gold 1 ounce pandas. Popular series, collected worldwide for their beauty and purity. PandaAmerica, undeniabally the foremost "specialist" in this field of numismatics. End result: lowball offer of $920 for a coin THEY have listed on their website at $1726. I guess you are correct, dealers ARE fair.
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<< <i>Why didn't YOU pay a fair price for them?
I asked the dealer how much he wanted, he gave me the price, I bought them. Seems fair to me. >>
In your other thread regarding the eBay situation you seem to send the message that this type of situation would be unethical. At least that's the jist I got from it.
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<< <i>So, let me get this straight, you bought bullion at melt and got upset when you were offered melt for your bullion? >>
Sell me all of your 1995-W silver eagle BULLION coins at melt.
I'd be more than happy to if I bought them at melt. So, no, I don't get your point. >>
HAHAHA!!!! So if you bought a few 1995-W ASE's at melt, you would be HAPPY to resell them at melt? Im not sure if you are just ignorant of the value, or if you are serious. >>
Of course I'm serious. Bullion is bullion. The sell price should be based on the buy price. Isn't that what you keep harping on and on ad infinitum about when dealers try to sell you a coin at more than bid when "everyone" knows he paid 20% back? (I don't know how everyone knows this but that is a different thread.) >>
And do you know what the overwhelming response is to those complaints? Sell the coin to a specialist in the field and they will pay far above sheet. Well, here we are. A very scarce coin, in fact second rarest of all the gold 1 ounce pandas. Popular series, collected worldwide for their beauty and purity. PandaAmerica, undeniabally the foremost "specialist" in this field of numismatics. End result: lowball offer of $920 for a coin THEY have listed on their website at $1726. I guess you are correct, dealers ARE fair.
Your attacking them without having any knowledge of the situation. For all we know they could have 20 of that date in their inventory, and really have no need for any more, thus the low offer.
So it is ok for you to make money but not them? Ever hear of overhead?
Sometimes I wonder..............
Steve
Maybe they did not need another 4 examples?
They were just as fair as you were.
Steve
I asked the dealer how much he wanted, he gave me the price, I bought them. Seems fair to me.
Then you called Panda America asked what they pay for them, they told you, sounds fair to me.
Steve
<< <i>I asked the dealer how much he wanted, he gave me the price, I bought them. Seems fair to me.
Then you called Panda America asked what they pay for them, they told you, sounds fair to me.
Steve >>
Here is the major difference steve, since you need a little help obviously. If I buy this coin from my local guy, its 103% of melt, if I sell, its 97% of melt. That yields a margin of 6% for my guy who runs a B&M WITH overhead. If I buy this coin from PandaAmerica, its 196% of melt, if I sell to him its 105% of melt. That yields a margin of 91%. Clear enough for your slower than average wit steve?
lotsa 'ifs' in your scenario there schmecko.
Oh so lol you want to buy at 3% over melt and then sell to PandaAmerica at 5-10% below there sell price.
Gotcha.
Steve
I might not do business with those Panda America folks, but I won't complain about how they do business either. I do not see how complaining helps.
Reselling those suckers for as low as you possibly can...lowering the comparables market...I can see how that might cut into their business a little bit...just a bit...
Are you going to sell them for what the market will bear? Or are you going to give some of the profits to the next buyer in the form of a really excellent deal?
<< <i>The only thing clear gecko schmecko is you are a hypocrit.
lotsa 'ifs' in your scenario there schmecko.
Oh so lol you want to buy at 3% over melt and then sell to PandaAmerica at 5-10% below there sell price.
Gotcha.
Steve >>
Stevie, try reading before responding. I countered with a price of $1325. That is 77% of their sell price of $1726. And just so you dont fry your brain with the calculation Stevie, thats 23% below their sell price, not 5%-10% as you claim.
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<< <i>I asked the dealer how much he wanted, he gave me the price, I bought them. Seems fair to me.
Then you called Panda America asked what they pay for them, they told you, sounds fair to me.
Steve >>
Here is the major difference steve, since you need a little help obviously. If I buy this coin from my local guy, its 103% of melt, if I sell, its 97% of melt. That yields a margin of 6% for my guy who runs a B&M WITH overhead. If I buy this coin from PandaAmerica, its 196% of melt, if I sell to him its 105% of melt. That yields a margin of 91%. Clear enough for your slower than average wit steve? >>
PandaAmerica offered $920. You can simply say no and forget it.
Just because your B&M guy took a much smaller profit does not mean PandaAmerica is some sort of ridiculous scam. Your B&M probably isn't also running ads in major publications, has a large staff, or is busy running a website.
WinPitcher is right. The dealer you bought them from gave you a price and you bought them from him. The dealer you tried to sell them to gave you his offer. From the sound of it, you could have even made a couple bucks if you accepted their price. What's the problem? If you want to make more go sell them on ebay so you can make your 75% profit.
No he is going to try and make every last dollar off those coins.
And who would blame him for doing that had he not whined about how PandaAmerica does business.
I'd like to see him operate a store and see just how often he would work on 3% to 6% margins.
Steve
It is ridiculous debating with this guy.
Steve
<< <i>Or are you going to give some of the profits to the next buyer in the form of a really excellent deal?
No he is going to try and make every last dollar off those coins.
And who would blame him for doing that had he not whined about how PandaAmerica does business.
I'd like to see him operate a store and see just how often he would work on 3% to 6% margins.
Steve >>
The guy I always buy these from operates on a 6% margin. I wonder how he does it, yet PandaAmerica needs to work on a 91% margin. Very confusing indeed.
Back in February I tried to thin out our Panda inventory by offering anything that seemed to be a better date to a different foreign gold specialist that I have an excellent relation with. He apologetically said that with gold at these levels he was having a hard time selling better dates, and could only use three or four of the pieces I was offering him at any sort of premium. I decided that the premium on those pieces wasn't worth the bother, and still have the lot. If you want to come by, I'll see what I can do for you on some or all.
TD