Which Auction Company Do You Trust ?

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS · May 12, 2008 11:25PM

Would you leave podium bids with this company ?
Would you be afraid they would run you up to your maximum bid ?

Do you think they would put their own coins in their own auction and run you up ?

Do you think the auction companys tell you their reserves ?

Do you believe auction companys have their own private clients who are probably investors competing against the collectors ?

In my view the most honorable auction company is the Evil Empire (Heritage Auction in Dallas Texas) but they also have some shenanigans which happen from time to time.

What do you think ?

Stewart

SmallEagle · May 13, 2008 12:23AM

Heritage seems far ahead of the field in customer service which directly benefits the sellers.

<< Would you leave podium bids with this company ? >>

Yes. I have bought several coins for less than half of my max bid.

<< Do you think the auction companys tell you their reserves ? >>

I appreciate Heritage's policy of publicizing reserves. I do not know of other companys that do this.

<< In my view the most honorable auction company is the Evil Empire (Heritage Auction in Dallas Texas) >>

Agreed.

Walmann · May 13, 2008 12:28AM

Dakota County Sherriff's Auction

RYK · May 13, 2008 12:49AM

Heritage is the only major coin auction firm from which I have won a coin at less than my maximum bid (and multiple times at that). As a bidder, it is the only firm that I trust to handle an absentee bid. They are also very strong on the customer service side.

UtahCoin · May 13, 2008 1:03AM

<< Heritage is the only major coin auction firm from which I have won a coin at less than my maximum bid (and multiple times at that). As a bidder, it is the only firm that I trust to handle an absentee bid. They are also very strong on the customer service side. >>

I've had the same experiences with Heritage myself.

blu62vette · May 13, 2008 1:07AM

I have never really used a major auction house. Bought from teletrade but have been looking at heritage more and more and finally started bidding there.

Shamika · May 13, 2008 1:08AM

They've all let me down at some point or another. In the end, you can only trust yourself in matters such as these.

Nysoto · May 13, 2008 1:30AM

I don't completely trust any of them, but my level of distrust is lowest with Heritage. I have won auction lots below my max bid from all the major auction firms.

I don't trust any of the auction firms in regard to reserves, bidding for their own inventory, shill bidding, collusion, etc. I have seen too many rarities in thinly traded series get run up in price, with no information on the underbidder.

CoinRaritiesOnline · May 13, 2008 2:22AM

I agree with those who say that the more information and transparency a coin auction house provides, the better for everyone -- bidder, seller, and auction house.

OKbustchaser · May 13, 2008 3:00AM

<< I don't completely trust any of them, but my level of distrust is lowest with Heritage. I have won auction lots below my max bid from all the major auction firms.

I don't trust any of the auction firms in regard to reserves, bidding for their own inventory, shill bidding, collusion, etc. I have seen too many rarities in thinly traded series get run up in price, with no information on the underbidder. >>

Everything Bill just said.

Coxe · May 13, 2008 11:14PM

Both Heritage and Teletrade are somewhat like mills at times. I doubt either seriously has the time or inclination to play games to the bidder's detriment. Both have great customer service and are attentive to the rare problems that can arise. They've never lost a coin or failed to pay off a consignment in all the years I have worked with them both. Another firm, which I won't name, failed to execute my proxy bids and I have only bought a single coin (which I couldn't pass up) from them since that incident. Meanwhile, I've bought hundreds from the other guys. That, taken with the eBay BIN shenanigans noted by others in the past, does put trust into question.

291fifth · May 13, 2008 11:35PM

Read the terms and then ask yourself if this is a company you can trust.

RYK · May 13, 2008 11:38PM

<< Read the terms and then ask yourself if this is a company you can trust. >>

If trust were measured on the basis of legal documents and the like, there would be no one in the world worthy of a shred of trust. It is how the documents are implemented that counts.

DJCoinz · May 13, 2008 11:43PM

I do not entirely trust any of them.

I must say Heritage is probably the most trustworthy of the several I've used. Teletrade is the least.

oreville · May 14, 2008 12:17PM

This is similar to my responding who I like more; the Hatfields or the McCoys.

ebaytrader · May 14, 2008 12:25PM

I can't think of a single numismatic auction house that I would trust with my back turned.

291fifth · May 14, 2008 12:33PM

<< 

<< Read the terms and then ask yourself if this is a company you can trust. >>

If trust were measured on the basis of legal documents and the like, there would be no one in the world worthy of a shred of trust. It is how the documents are implemented that counts. >>

These legal documents will provide clues to the mindset of the auction company. In many cases you will find that they can do whatever they want once they have your signature on the consignment agreement. Is this the kind of company you can trust?

Bidders need to read the terms of sale as well. Again, they will often find that the auction companies hold all the cards. Again, is this the kind of company you can trust?

I once had an employer who tried to sneak non-compete agreements into bonus documents (and the bonuses offered were a joke.) Businessmen can tell you a great deal about their ethical standards by what they put into their legal documents.

DMWJR · May 14, 2008 12:38PM

<< They've all let me down at some point or another. In the end, you can only trust yourself in matters such as these. >>

+1,000

Always treat auctions like fixed price auctions.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS · May 14, 2008 12:41PM

I believe auction houses and auctioneers are licensed.I don't know if it is the city,state or federal government that regulates auction houses.I remember when the CEO of Sothbys(Alfred Taubman) went to jail at age 72 and the director (DD Brooks)was under house arrest for at least a year.

Does anyone know who regulates coin auctions.I mean is shilling allowed in Illinois?Can an auction company consign a coin and bid on it in Colorado?

Stewart

JCMhouston · May 14, 2008 12:42PM

I've used Heritage and DLRC with good results, and won lots below my minimum bid at both. DLRC rund a lot of so-called auctions with their own inventory, but no big deal for me if the price and quality are right. DLRC will move items up in price until they are 1 bid below the reserve, so at least you know what it takes. I've also entered bids that didn't meet reserve, then they lowered the reserve later. They give you the option of cancelling your bid when this happens in case you bought one somewhere else. They also ship the day after the auction, something Heritage never does. I've probably won a dozen pieces in the past 6 months at Heritage and it's usually 4-5 days after payment before they ship. That may have something to do with the higher volumes.

ScarsdaleCoin · May 14, 2008 12:45PM

Here are some of the states and if you need a license for online auctions

Link

Coxe · May 14, 2008 1:00PM

<< Here are some of the states and if you need a license for online auctions

Link >>

Thanks for the link. I was actually looking to get at such information myself.

DMWJR · May 14, 2008 1:00PM

<< I believe auction houses and auctioneers are licensed.I don't know if it is the city,state or federal government that regulates auction houses.I remember when the CEO of Sothbys(Alfred Taubman) went to jail at age 72 and the director (DD Brooks)was under house arrest for at least a year.

Does anyone know who regulates coin auctions.I mean is shilling allowed in Illinois?Can an auction company consign a coin and bid on it in Colorado?

Stewart >>

Typically, auctions just like other businesses are regulated by the state laws in which they are doing business (essentially where the sale occurs). Licensing is really a separate issue, because whether an auctioneer meets the requirements to conduct an auction is not the same as whether the state regulates (or prohibits) certain auction practices.

DMWJR · May 14, 2008 1:10PM

Google these statutes for California if you want some interesting reading on prohibitions for auctions in that state:

1812.608(h)
2328(4)
1770(a)(9-19)
1720

Here are a couple of interesting criminal provisions (certain parts have been omitted for space considerations)

1812.608. In addition to other requirements and prohibitions of
this title, it is a violation of this title for any person to do any
of the following:

(c) Place or use any misleading or untruthful advertising or
statements or make any substantial misrepresentation in conducting
auctioneering business. A first violation of this subdivision is a
misdemeanor subject to a fine of five hundred dollars ($500); and a
second or subsequent violation is subject to a fine of one thousand
dollars ($1,000).

(h) Cause or allow any person to bid at a sale for the sole
purpose of increasing the bid on any item or items being sold by the
auctioneer, except as authorized by Section 2328 of the Commercial
Code or by this title. A violation of this subdivision includes, but
is not limited to, either of the following:
(1) Stating any increased bid greater than that offered by the
last highest bidder when, in fact, no person has made such a bid.
(2) Allowing the owner, consignor, or agent thereof, of any item
or items to bid on the item or items, without disclosing to the
audience that the owner, consignor, or agent thereof has reserved the
right to so bid.
A violation of this subdivision is an infraction subject to a fine
of one hundred dollars ($100).

(i) Knowingly misrepresent the nature of any item or items to be
sold at auction, including, but not limited to, age, authenticity,
value, condition, or origin. A violation of this subdivision is an
infraction subject to a fine of two hundred fifty dollars ($250). In
addition, it shall be required that the buyer of the misrepresented
item be refunded the purchase price of the item or items within 24
hours of return to the auctioneer or auction company of the item by
the buyer, provided that the item is returned within five days after
the date of the auction sale.

BlindedByEgo · May 14, 2008 1:57PM

<< 

<< Heritage is the only major coin auction firm from which I have won a coin at less than my maximum bid (and multiple times at that). As a bidder, it is the only firm that I trust to handle an absentee bid. They are also very strong on the customer service side. >>

I've had the same experiences with Heritage myself. >>

Ditto.

Torrero · May 14, 2008 10:59PM

Heritage is the only auction house I will leave my proxy with on-line or handing it to one of their people to bid for me. I've done so with other companies in the past and suspected foul play. Plus I love all the information and transparency Heritage provides. I hate chandelier bidding.

Jay

pmac · May 14, 2008 11:09PM

Another benefit that Heritage provides is their past auction archives. This seems to be the most accurate price guide I've found.

mozin · May 15, 2008 2:33AM

<< I don't completely trust any of them, but my level of distrust is lowest with Heritage. I have won auction lots below my max bid from all the major auction firms.

I don't trust any of the auction firms in regard to reserves, bidding for their own inventory, shill bidding, collusion, etc. I have seen too many rarities in thinly traded series get run up in price, with no information on the underbidder. >>

My thoughts exactly.

saintguru · May 15, 2008 2:50AM

I have had nothing but great success, service and friendship with Heritage since I started. For those of you who have NO TRUST as you've expressed. Do yourself a favor and don't use them and stress yourself out. I'd leave bids with them anyday. This legal crap is the same as any deal you make. It's all lawyerese and if you think that Heritage is going to screw you for $500 because of some legal footnote and risk losing repeat business you don't get it.

Heritage wants you to come back and back and back. That means take care of the customer. The only caveat and biggest complaint I hear about them is that a coin wasn't as nice as it should be. That ain't Heritage's fault. That's "someone else's"

fault. Be represented or be there. You'll do well as often as you want to!

<< Would you leave podium bids with this company ? ABSOLUTELY!
Would you be afraid they would run you up to your maximum bid ? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Do you think they would put their own coins in their own auction and run you up ? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Do you think the auction companys tell you their reserves ? I don't know if I'm allowed to answer this.

Do you believe auction companys have their own private clients who are probably investors competing against the collectors ? YES, but that's fair.

In my view the most honorable auction company is the Evil Empire (Heritage Auction in Dallas Texas) but they also have some shenanigans which happen from time to time.

What do you think ? Considering the size and scale of Heritage they have maintained a degree of integrity that I think is unrivalled in the coin world. You have a problem...they'll fix it. You need some special service, they are willing to be creative. I like them and I will use them!

Stewart >>

JB

rays · May 15, 2008 3:04AM

I trust Heritage to execute my bids. I have had only good experiences with them for nearly 15 years.

The only funny business, and this is the case with all the auction companies (read the terms and conditions) is that the auction company can (1) bid on coins against you (and they don't have to pay the net buyer's fees) and (2) some of the coins in an auction are owned by the auction firm, and they don't have to disclose which ones.

DMWJR · May 15, 2008 3:25AM

Jay, I wasn't implying anything about Heritage, and I agree with you about lawyerese. I was just answering Stewart's question about whether auctions were regulated by state or federal law.

saintguru · May 15, 2008 3:25AM

<< I trust Heritage to execute my bids. I have had only good experiences with them for nearly 15 years.

The only funny business, and this is the case with all the auction companies (read the terms and conditions) is that the auction company can (1) bid on coins against you (and they don't have to pay the net buyer's fees) and (2) some of the coins in an auction are owned by the auction firm, and they don't have to disclose which ones. >>

If they bid against you they better be ready to own it...and they have many times.

I'd like to see them note a coin they own. I think it would be a gesture of transparency with no downside to them as far as I can see.

LoveMyLiberty · May 15, 2008 3:41AM

<< I've used Heritage and DLRC with good results, and won lots below my minimum bid at both. DLRC rund a lot of so-called auctions with their own inventory, but no big deal for me if the price and quality are right. DLRC will move items up in price until they are 1 bid below the reserve, so at least you know what it takes. I've also entered bids that didn't meet reserve, then they lowered the reserve later. They give you the option of cancelling your bid when this happens in case you bought one somewhere else. They also ship the day after the auction, something Heritage never does. I've probably won a dozen pieces in the past 6 months at Heritage and it's usually 4-5 days after payment before they ship. That may have something to do with the higher volumes. >>

Heritage not only handles 1,000's of items, but conducts their auctions at various locations around
the U.S. They ship the coins to these locals for "at auction viewing" and must re-ship them back
to Dallas to settle the sales. After making numerous purchases from Heritage it's obvious that the
sooner you pay for the item, the faster it is shipped. On average I've received my items within
8 to 10 days of the hammer falling, by FedEx, sometimes sooner.
DLRC does theirs in-house. Just completed a buy from Morphy Auctions in Penn. & received the
item UPS in 3 days from the close.

Never had a problem with Heritage in buying,,,have some selling at Long Beach & will see if I'm
satisfied.
Pretty hard to beat a company with Todd Imhof involved.

saintguru · May 15, 2008 3:44AM

<< 
Pretty hard to beat a company with Todd Imhof involved.

>>

You just ruined my day and made Todd's head grow to encephalitic size.

hee hee

Nysoto · May 15, 2008 3:49AM

<< The only funny business, and this is the case with all the auction companies (read the terms and conditions) is that the auction company can (1) bid on coins against you (and they don't have to pay the net buyer's fees) and (2) some of the coins in an auction are owned by the auction firm, and they don't have to disclose which ones >>

Question:

What is the difference between the auction company bidding on their own coins, and shill bidding? The auction company does have access to your max bid.

saintguru · May 15, 2008 5:55AM

<< 

<< The only funny business, and this is the case with all the auction companies (read the terms and conditions) is that the auction company can (1) bid on coins against you (and they don't have to pay the net buyer's fees) and (2) some of the coins in an auction are owned by the auction firm, and they don't have to disclose which ones >>

Question:

What is the difference between the auction company bidding on their own coins, and shill bidding? The auction company does have access to your max bid. >>

It's my certain understanding that the maximum bids are only known to the HIGHEST few people at Heritage and anyone participating in the auction on Heritage's behalf would breech the deepest confidence and integrity of the book and Heritage. The book is the Holy Grail to an auction house so they would not compromise that for a few extra bucks.

rays · May 15, 2008 6:06AM

I did not mean to imply that an auction firm bidding on lots is shill bidding, only that they have two advantages over everyone else: first, they know the reserve, and second, they get a little discount in the form of the sales commissions.

Nysoto · May 15, 2008 6:09AM

<< It's my certain understanding that the maximum bids are only known to the HIGHEST few people at Heritage and anyone participating in the auction on Heritage's behalf would breech the deepest confidence and integrity of the book and Heritage. The book is the Holy Grail to an auction house so they would not compromise that for a few extra bucks. >>

OK. Lets take out the knowledge of high bid component of the question.

What is the difference between an auction firm bidding on their own coins, and shill bidding? This assumes the bidder for the auction firm does not know the high proxy bid.

Another question:

What is the difference between an auction firm bidding on other consignor's coins against YOU, and shill bidding?

cho10 · May 15, 2008 6:33AM

DLRC and Heritage boith publish Reserve amounts.
My experience with both has been positive on all occasions.
I have instead noticed that when I bid on a Teletrade coin the winning amount is always my maximum bid which is a bit strange statistically speaking.

Torrero · May 15, 2008 10:20PM

Shill bidding seems like a moot point to a company like DLRC or Heritage where the reserves are disclosed up front, unless you are willing to question an auction house's integrity on how they handle their book bids (the high proxies). But it seems evident from people's actual experiences here, including my own I must say, that Heritage's book is trusted, while some others are not.

I suppose its not an issue if you always bid in person. But for many of us, it isn't feasible.

Jay

saintguru · May 15, 2008 10:43PM

<< 

<< It's my certain understanding that the maximum bids are only known to the HIGHEST few people at Heritage and anyone participating in the auction on Heritage's behalf would breech the deepest confidence and integrity of the book and Heritage. The book is the Holy Grail to an auction house so they would not compromise that for a few extra bucks. >>

OK. Lets take out the knowledge of high bid component of the question.

What is the difference between an auction firm bidding on their own coins, and shill bidding? This assumes the bidder for the auction firm does not know the high proxy bid.

Another question:

What is the difference between an auction firm bidding on other consignor's coins against YOU, and shill bidding? >>

You are now questioning the integrity of the entire auction process at any particular company. I know that this practice has occured at some houses but with a company like Heritage it would be a violation of the strictest and most serious forms of credibility that they must have to conduct fair auctions. Maybe it's a "leap of faith" to acceot the fact that they would never put shilling ahead of their reputation but it's a leap that you take and believe or one that you'll never get over. I am certain that all Heritage cares about is getting the best price for a seller in a fair auction. They don't have to bump bids. It's unnecessary, trivial and considering that they are basically a "bookie" who cares? They never lose so why cheat?

If they want to bid against anyone that's fair. They can represent Heritage for desirable coins. This is NOT a public only process. As a seller I welcome their bids, high and higher! As a buyer I always know that if there's a coin that I want, it's very likely that someone else is going to want it too. It's like the pits at the commodity boards...it's open outcry commerce and that's as pure as it gets. Coins will sell based on demand...simple as that. Heritage has bought MANY a coin that had NO OTHER bids and paid very fair prices, basically bailing out a client at their risk and capital. I've bought numerous coins from them that they had bought in auction. They actually help the seller in these instances....more than any other firm!

You have to trust SOMEONE at certain points in this world. Pick who you do and avoid who you don't. I had an experience with an auction house last summer that was unethical in my eyes and I walked on a coin after I had lost it and it was offered to me the next day. I won't revive that but it was an example of a house gone bad. Some will recall that thread.

DMWJR · May 31, 2008 1:36PM

All these questions stem from bargain hunting.

You will never know who all is bidding -- ever. Could be the auction house, the consignor, your best collector friend, David Hall, your mother -- none of it matters. I've seen a dealer put reserves on a coin, bid it up on the internet, and waive his paddle on the floor, then have a beard bid on the next lot for him.

Know how to grade a coin. Buy the coin, not the holder, dealer, or auction house. Do all of your research early, and then decide how much you are willing to pay for the coin, all things considered (rank in the census, current market, other collectors you know about). Then bid accordingly. Everything else is a sideshow.

I just paid 2x sheet for a very nice coin. I researched it hard, and won it at my max bid. Do I really care who was bidding behind me? Not in the least. I paid what I was willing to pay for it. (Ok, I'm secretly hoping it was SaintGuru just for spite

)

In short, control what you can control, and don't worry about the rest, whether you are buying finest known or widgets. When I was buying widget Proof 70 memorials, I set a cap of $500 per coin period and I followed it for a long time. Passed a lot of them on the way. (This was when many, many of the dates were over $1,000). They came around. Then I stretched for a few of the earlier ones. Now I'm done!

mrearlygold · May 31, 2008 1:37PM

Trust? It has changed over the years. I'm sure it will continue to change in the future too.

DMWJR · May 31, 2008 1:39PM

Trust, but verify.

evsite · May 31, 2008 2:27PM

An auction house is an agent of the seller. As a buyer you should NEVER trust the auction house to act in your best interest.

Unknown · May 31, 2008 3:55PM

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Elcontador · May 31, 2008 7:22PM

In my book, there's Heritage, and there's everybody else. I work through a rep @ Heritage. He screens coins that I like for me, and either an independent rep looks at them, or I look at them as well. Two sets of eyes always look at any coin on which I bid.

He tells me whether a coin that interests me from an image is a Heritage or a consigned coin. If he tells me that he likes a coin, I believe him. More often than not, he's talked me out of a coin whose image might look good but it is really a POS.

I have gotten coins below my max bid, but not often (but I don't win many coins in any event). The customer service is excellent. My only negative experience with them was when I was younger and stupid and did not have a second set of eyes on the coin before bidding on it. This was also before I met my rep over there. The coin was a 1917 P Type I SLQ in FH 5. I bid an extra $100, assuming it was PQ for the grade, when in fact it was mid-grade. The problem was my poor judgement, not with Heritage or the coin.

I'd say the same about the old ANR, but definitely NOT Stack's.