REAL Confederate Cent on ebay

ambro51 · May 11, 2008 11:01PM

OMG IM IN LOVE!!

Quick, sell the house!

http://cgi.ebay.com/1861-Confederate-Cent-Original-NGC-PF61_W0QQitemZ330235109718QQihZ014QQcategoryZ41085QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

tjkillian · May 11, 2008 11:17PM

What is the history behind these? I was under the impression that they were not used during Mr. Lincoln's war, but struck after the war of northern agression because the minter was afraid of being sent to prison as he was from Philadelphia.

coindudeonebay · May 11, 2008 11:20PM

Click me... quick!

ricko · May 11, 2008 11:26PM

"......but struck after the war of northern agression " ??????????????????? Cheers, RickO

vaq45 · May 11, 2008 11:35PM

Don't get a Lib started-they spit venom !!

ambro51 · May 11, 2008 11:41PM

In a nutshell, Robert Lovett, a Philadelphia die maker, was 'contracted' to design the cent for the confederacy. Very shortly therefter, it became law not to do any business with the south. Lovett made between 12 and 16 of these, and hid them away in his cellar. In 1873, Lovett spent one of them, possibly this very one, by mistake, after carrying it in his pocket for some time. It made its way to a phila coin dealer, who recognized lovetts work, and after much haggleing, bought the dies and restruck about 70 pieces in copper, gold and silver. these are the Haseltine restrikes, which command prices of 25K and up.

All in all, this in indeed a very great rarity. The last one I know of that was offered for sale was to Ira Stein for about 100K last year.

There is an excellent well researched book on these coins, , The Lovett Cent, A Confederate Story by Harold Levi and George Corell. Good reading!!!

(Im at a loss to explain the PF61 grade, since this coin has obvious wear. Last I heard it was graded XF)

Zoins · May 11, 2008 11:42PM

<< What is the history behind these? >>

Check out the text of the eBay auction and RebelStatesCurrency.com. I believe Haseltine is the only one that was promoting the story and that no one has corroborated it. There's also no documentation as to who ordered the pieces and when they were made. Some people consider Haseltine's word and examination of the pieces enough to classify these as patterns. Others need more evidence and consider them to be fantasy coins. In any event, they are very cool pieces from a well known figure. Lovett also made and struck many tokens.

For posterity, here's the info from eBay:

<< From the Old Roswell Mill Collection. Although this claim cannot be proven at this time, we believe that the offered coin is Robert Lovett, Jr.'s pocket piece that he accidentally spent at a tavern one winter night in 1873. Lovett, a jeweler and engraver from Philadelphia, was approached by agents of the Confederacy before the war began in 1861. He was contracted out to design a one cent piece for circulation in the Confederacy, but after fear of being caught and convicted for treason, Lovett buried his dies and handful of coins in his cellar. However, Lovett kept one as a pocket piece which he accidentally spent in 1873 while he was inebriated at a bar. The bartender allegedly sold the coin to a collector who passed it along to Capt. John W. Hazeltine. The former Civil War captain recognized the handiwork as Lovett's and proceeded to locate the jeweler and visit him until Lovett sold the captain the remaining coins and the dies. With that story, we believe that the presently offered coin has Lovett's pocket piece spent at the tavern. The coin has a sweated appearance, consistent with the nature of a pocket piece as well as the appearance of being used for a number of years. Whether or not it can be proven, the present specimen is nonetheless an exciting and significant piece of numismatic history that will be most assuredly appreciated by generations to come. >>

RebelStatesCurrency.com says that Haseltine had Peter Kinder of Philadelphia create the set of First Restrikes. Later on, Robert Bashlow had August C. Frank & Co. of Philadelphia create transfer dies and create Second Restrikes.

<< the war of northern aggression >>

This is also called The War of Southern Arrogance by some. Both are nicknames for the Civil War.

ambro51 · May 11, 2008 11:46PM

Lovett also made several tokens and storecards, His own 1860 card was done in coppernickel and is very close to the CSA cent.

Probably as close as Ill come to owning an original csa cent.......if I dont use my reading glasses, this comes pretty close! PS one of these just sold on ebay for $111

CaptHenway · May 12, 2008 12:17AM

(Im at a loss to explain the PF61 grade, since this coin has obvious wear. Last I heard it was graded XF) >>

They accidentally picked up the 1804 dollar grading guide, wherein XF/AU cleaned = PF-61.

TD

ElKevvo · May 12, 2008 12:39AM

Well if anyone is hesitating don't forget that they have a layaway plan to ease the pain!

Layaway Plans: We offer layaway plans for purchases over $2,000.

Nice coin and a good piece of history.

K

ziggy29 · May 12, 2008 12:44AM

<< Well if anyone is hesitating don't forget that they have a layaway plan to ease the pain! Layaway Plans: We offer layaway plans for purchases over $2,000. >>

Excellent. $1000 down and $150 a month for 100 years ought to cover it.

mrearlygold · May 12, 2008 12:50AM

I'm pretty sure this is the one that Grover Criswell spoke with me about a LONG time ago. Wow

ambro51 · May 12, 2008 12:56AM

Anyone every buy $$$$$$ coins on a timeshare arrangement? About ten years ago I nearly bought into a TS deal on a Beech Bonanza, that was of course before a 'good friend' nearly crashed us into the Palisades near Nyack NY doing stupid aerobatics in a Citabria. enuff of the flying........

Artist · May 12, 2008 1:40AM

I know grade is irrelevant on a piece like this - but PF-61?!?

CaptHenway · May 12, 2008 1:44AM

<< I know grade is irrelevant on a piece like this - but PF-61?!? >>

So, I guess by extrapolatiojn the ones that aren't circulated are all Proof-70's????

ambro51 · May 12, 2008 1:52AM

Also, perhaps two of these are actually 'lost'. Lovett lived and worked very near Independence Hall in Philadelphia and just maybe someday one will turn up at some construction site, laying there in the dirt.

This coin woud make a great start to a CSA registry set.....you'd need this one, a copper, gold and silver Haseltine restrike, and the two halves, the liberty seated and the scott token.

I dont know if anyone has that set.

ambro51 · May 12, 2008 4:59AM

Based on "The Lovett Cent, A Confederate Story" By Harold Levi and George Corell, this coin for sale is referenced as Coin number 2, photographed on page 252. It is one of three coins thought to be Lovetts pocket piece. Last sale record was Stacks Ford 1 Lot 322 and was graded as XF.

The spot pattern and toning marks are a clear match.

GoldenEyeNumismatics · May 12, 2008 5:16AM

Wow.

PerryHall · May 12, 2008 6:05AM

<< I know grade is irrelevant on a piece like this - but PF-61?!? >>

Look at the grades assigned by the major grading services to some of the 1804 silver dollars.

AlixTCat · May 12, 2008 6:12AM

<< (Im at a loss to explain the PF61 grade, since this coin has obvious wear. Last I heard it was graded XF) >>

That's because a proof is always a proof, even with wear.
It is not like an business strike coin that has wear. That would make it not MS, not not Proof.

Jonathan

JoeLewis · May 12, 2008 6:16AM

<< 

<< (Im at a loss to explain the PF61 grade, since this coin has obvious wear. Last I heard it was graded XF) >>

That's because a proof is always a proof, even with wear.
It is not like an business strike coin that has wear. That would make it not MS, not not Proof.

Jonathan >>

I've seen PCGS PF45 before. In fact, I thinkI've even seen a PF8!

Goldbully · May 12, 2008 6:18AM

Varieties:
Originals:
Copper-Nickel - 12 struck
Restrikes from unbroken dies:
Copper - 55 struck
Gold - 7 struck
Silver - 12 struck
Restrikes from broken dies:
Aluminum - 50 struck
Bronze - 5,000 struck
Gold - 3 struck
Goldine - 5,000 struck
Lead - 50 struck
Nickel Silver - 50 struck
Platinum - 3 struck
Red Fiber - 50 struck
Silver - 5,000 struck
Tin - 50 struck
Zinc - 50 struck

CoinFacts

dan8402 · May 12, 2008 6:18AM

<< 

<< (Im at a loss to explain the PF61 grade, since this coin has obvious wear. Last I heard it was graded XF) >>

That's because a proof is always a proof, even with wear.
It is not like an business strike coin that has wear. That would make it not MS, not not Proof.

Jonathan >>

Since proof is a method of manufacture, an impaired (worn) proof would grade PF45, or PF03 or whatever else depending on how much wear. The only time I really have seen this is with proof only issues of trade dollars.

fc · May 12, 2008 6:18AM

guys,

the grade is totally accurate. NGC graded it and therefore you have no opinion worth
sharing that could make me think otherwise.

experts indeed. ;-)

NumisOxide · May 12, 2008 6:40AM

These are the Bashlow so-called restrikes, transfer dies from the original. Made in the 1960's.
Restrikes from broken dies:
Aluminum - 50 struck
Bronze - 5,000 struck
Gold - 3 struck
Goldine - 5,000 struck
Lead - 50 struck
Nickel Silver - 50 struck
Platinum - 3 struck
Red Fiber - 50 struck
Silver - 5,000 struck
Tin - 50 struck
Zinc - 50 struck

NumisOxide · May 12, 2008 6:44AM

Here's a set of hub trials I own from Bashlow's strikings. A set like these sold at a recent heritage auction for $1000!
Obverse Hub Trial

Reverse Hub Trial

Goldbully · May 12, 2008 6:45AM

Very cool....thank you!!!

CaptHenway · May 12, 2008 7:44AM

<< Based on "The Lovett Cent, A Confederate Story" By Harold Levi and George Corell, this coin for sale is referenced as Coin number 2, photographed on page 252. It is one of three coins thought to be Lovetts pocket piece. Last sale record was Stacks Ford 1 Lot 322 and was graded as XF.

The spot pattern and toning marks are a clear match. >>

"Gradeflation! Catch the fever!!!"

AOEDAD · May 12, 2008 8:41AM

Very Nice Hub .. well worth $1000.00 !

FYI .. attached is photo Bashlow Gold .. ex Kagin Collection.

I've collected Bashlows for about 45 years ..
always gald to see another collector's items .. tj

NumisOxide · May 12, 2008 9:26AM

<< Very Nice Hub .. well worth $1000.00 !

FYI .. attached is photo Bashlow Gold .. ex Kagin Collection.

I've collected Bashlows for about 45 years ..
always gald to see another collector's items .. tj

>>

fcloud · May 12, 2008 9:39AM

Very cool!

DUIGUY · May 12, 2008 1:24PM

Another example of R. Lovett's work in silver,

RWB · May 13, 2008 6:35AM

If it has wear it can't be a "61" anything.

Zoins · May 13, 2008 3:01PM

<< If it has wear it can't be a "61" anything. >>

It can if it's market graded, which is becoming a more common practice.

CaptHenway · May 13, 2008 3:40PM

<< If it has wear it can't be a "61" anything. >>

PerryHall · May 13, 2008 8:54PM

<< 

<< If it has wear it can't be a "61" anything. >>

It can if it's market graded, which is becoming a more common practice. >>

Agree only if the "wear" is the barest trace of rub.

ambro51 · May 13, 2008 9:20PM

Id give it the XF grade it carried before NGC got it. (and no I dont like their slabs either they make this house priced coin look teeeeeney in that white thing}

Compare the auction picture with the Lovett storecard I posted, and the heavy wear on the lower hair is very evident.

Dont get me wrong Im not bashing this coin....but IF I were the new owner, Id submit it to PCGS, take the whack in the grade and at least be honest with it. (also Id start that Confederate Coin registry set)

I nearly had a partner for half the buy...but his "Loving Thoughtful Wife" (who already has a 5 bedroom/4 bath house 1 block off the beach and a Jaguar) is Scairt of investing in coins. (arrrgggghhhhh)

Placid · May 13, 2008 9:50PM

I dunno seems like a bargin, its half the price of the 1794 Liberty Cap 1C the seller has.

DoctorPaper · May 17, 2008 3:45PM

Here's a couple of tokens using Lovett's "Confecerate head."

coinsarefun · May 17, 2008 4:45PM

How about this one.

DoctorPaper · May 18, 2008 3:09AM

What's interesting is that at first glance all these 'confederate heads' look like they came from the same hub, but if you look closely, there's small variations among them.

ambro51 · May 18, 2008 3:20AM

Yes of those three tokens, only the Biern Hotel piece is the work of Robert Lovett Jr.

He also done the Marshall House Allebach and Idler store cards.

I think they are the only ones, at least that is according to the book aforementioned. so in all he done his own storecard, Idler, Allebach Marshall house and Biern hotel. And of course the CSA cent. There are many other examples of his work, Im only mentioning the french liberty head design.

Get the book if these interest you, its a great read.

BBQnBLUES · May 18, 2008 3:43AM

Ya'll made me go look at Civil War Tokens on eBay after reading this post. ha

Snagged a cheapo example: linky dinky

Will fill one of the empty holes in my IH¢ Dansco

mnmcoin · May 18, 2008 10:15AM

Psh! I will wait for a platinum example.

morris

farthing · May 20, 2008 12:08PM

So was it someone here who snagged Lovett's storecard tonight on ebay? Link

REAL Confederate Cent on ebay

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**REAL** Confederate Cent on ebay

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REAL Confederate Cent on ebay