I dunno, maybe some are just shinier than others. Here's the '08 w/ '07 shiny reverse. 3/5 of my '08/'07s are similar on both obverse and reverse, while two are the expected soft satiny finish.
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Ok, here's what I'll do. I will take some pictures and overlay them, shiny with soft. I will focus on a few different locations on both sides of the coin. Maybe that will shed some light on this issue.
I just compared some of mine, I have some with matte/matte, some with moderately shiny/matte, some that are absolutely hammered shiny/matte. No shiny reverses as far as i can tell yet--but the hammered coins, which were recently delivered make all of my NGC 69s look like red headed step children.
take a look at this side by side. Both are the 08/07 reverse. One is shiney, one is matte. they were taken with the exact same lighting and exact same focal length.
here is an overlay. The shiney is 50% transparent.
So are these different planchets? Some got the burnished treatment and some didnt? Maybe these were meant for proof and got struck once with a nice shiny look, while the normal burnished planchets turned out ....normal
The unused 07 dies were all in a box, both proof and unc dies. One of the three dies used to mint the estimated 47,000 coins was for a PROOF coin... The other two from an 07 unc.
So this is only being found on the 08/07s. If this is the case and if these are from unfinished Proof dies, and this phenomena is being observed on the '08 obv & the '07 rev. then they would have to come together from 2 different year's dies. That would be a very strange occurrence indeed. Tends to make me believe that something else is going on here. Die wear or poorly prepared dies? Only thing is that this does not explain the stronger details on the shiny ones . . .
Regards, John
Need the following OBW rolls to complete my 46-64 Roosevelt roll set: 1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S. Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
OK, I have another theory. These things are being struck on multiple presses. The set-up between presses may not be the same. Maybe the set-up gap between dies is closer on one press or the striking tonnage is greater on one than on another. This would give a stronger strike but could also cause the satin finish on the dies to wear away rather quickly. Just conjecture!
Regards, John
Need the following OBW rolls to complete my 46-64 Roosevelt roll set: 1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S. Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
<< <i>So this is only being found on the 08/07s. If this is the case and if these are from unfinished Proof dies, and this phenomena is being observed on the '08 obv & the '07 rev. then they would have to come together from 2 different year's dies. That would be a very strange occurrence indeed. Tends to make me believe that something else is going on here. Die wear or poorly prepared dies? Only thing is that this does not explain the stronger details on the shiny ones . . .
Regards, John >>
As I stated earlier in this thread: "I'm going with "Unfinished Proof Die" the detail in the flag is much sharper in the top coin than in the bottom coin, it would not be the first time this has happened, in 1999 unfinished proof dies were used on some $5 and $10 uncirculated Gold Eagles. You may have a new variety! "
Either that or maybe they created a new hub, if they did that they may have softened the details due to stress problems with the new dies. It could also be that these were intended for trial runs and not intended to be released, that could also explain the 07 reverse on these coins. In either case I would consider this to be a true variety!
Could these be getting a second strike like they do a proof to raise more detail? I dont know, but from the pictures presented it is clear there is more detail in the "Shiney Eagles"
Have another theory? Make your case instead of just disagreeing tell us how you believe this happened. I truely believe that others have dispelled the "Worn Die Theory" a worn die would have less detail, not more.
My Honest Opinion on this matter.
Tex
Edited to add, on an earlier post it was mentioned that the Buffalo Dollar seemed to have different finishes for the uncirculated versions. As was later disclosed by the Mint, the uncirculated Buffalo Dollars were struck at least TWO times and sometimes THREE times with a much greater preasure do get full detail. This was uncommon for uncirculated strikes for Commemorative Dollars.
This could also be the case for these.
I hope these are submitted soon to PCGS. If the persons who have these and would like them submitted and do not have an account with PCGS I will offer to submit these for you without any extra cost. If you are interested send me a PM. (You can look at my Ebay feedback and see that I can be trusted as well as references on this board that I can give you).
Tim Mayberry - Owner - Paris Coins
On BS&T Now: Nothing. Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up! Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
I am seeing these on the rev of 08's. I have searched over 500 coins and only have 12 of these. 11 reverse's and 1 with the obverse. I hae yet to see it on a rev of 07.
Ok, her we go, proof positive of a different hub design on these, this composite picture is taken from the photographes above, both from the 08 reverse. Take a look at the "S" in Silver, you will notice these are two different font designs ! I wonder why no one else spotted this! I will claim this discovery!
On BS&T Now: Nothing. Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up! Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
<< <i>I am seeing these on the rev of 08's. I have searched over 500 coins and only have 12 of these. 11 reverse's and 1 with the obverse. I hae yet to see it on a rev of 07. >>
I observed the same last night while trying to image the 2 coins, for a minute I thought I had switched them, the 08/08 definately had the greater detail on the reverse only.
I made an offer on the other large thread that I would happily trade my batch of "new die" (matte finish) coins , coin for coin, raw, with any "worn die" (shiny versions) , since i believe the shiny versions to be a nicer stronger more detailed coin,
And would you believe---not one offer.
Makes you doubt the value is considered equal. Why dont folks want to trade all those worn out die strike coins?
Now, wouldnt it be cool for PCGS to step up and be the first to make the attributions. Unless they want to wait and see what NGC does and then follow like they have on several occasions...like Presidentials being A and B position, Cheerios Dollars, and the reverse of 2007 ASE
Im not being mean--I grade all my coins through PCGS, Im a PCGS man, and I would like my team to step in here, FIRST.
Also, Its funny the mint never said there were any other issues--so were there 47,000 total wrong dies of 1 type, or 47,000 wrong dies with all types--do we have 2,000 of 1 4,000 of another...and so on.
Now i have to go sit through a few hundred ASEs looking at the shiny factor
My mistake Cameron, I could have sworn they were the first on that. I remembered, inaccurately, a conversation I had at the time the double edges were appearing, with a dealer, saying that PCGS should institute an AA version, and AB version and a BB version--instead of simply overlapped and inverted, and he said PCGS wasnt interested. In my mind i must have just assumed that if PCGS ignored that obvious a distinction, maybe they hadnt even come up with the A, B route either. So, I guess Im 2/3 on my example.
<< <i>I am seeing these on the rev of 08's. I have searched over 500 coins and only have 12 of these. 11 reverse's and 1 with the obverse. I hae yet to see it on a rev of 07. >>
This picture is from an 08/07. I can't remember if the entire coin was shiney or just the details of the eagle but I don't see any wear at all.
I rec'd two orders of 12 in the last 2 days. The first 12 were 08/08 Matte/Matte. Today I rec'd 12 08/08 - 7 were shiny obverse, matte reverse, 5 were matte/matte.
wasn't there a guy here posting to look very carefully at all 08's, the guy that was in the know before the 08/07 were discovered? Maybe he saw this and has been hoarding them? Waiting for the discover to be released....
<< <i>wasn't there a guy here posting to look very carefully at all 08's, the guy that was in the know before the 08/07 were discovered? Maybe he saw this and has been hoarding them? Waiting for the discover to be released.... >>
<< <i> Now i have to go sit through a few hundred ASEs looking at the shiny factor >>
If you already went thoug them you would know if you had any. I swear you can see this from 30 ft, its that pronounced.
I have a couple at PCS right now for grading, I sent them in last week with a batch of other rev of 08's looking for 70. >>
I wholeheartedly agree with your statement "I swear you can see this from 30ft, its that pronounced." I compare the look to a High relief St. Gaudens double eagle.
I wouldnt go as far as comparing them to a High Relief $20,
first of all have you ever held one of those in your hand? I have, I have owned an 07 HR Wire Rim, these are not even close to the high relief coins of 1907 or the Peace Dollars of 1921.
Hey, my first attempt to post... last night I thought I saw one of your posts that showed the reverse pics of the reverse-proof like. The 'S' and the 'D' looked different. I thought to myself... 'lets see, there's the 'U' 'S' 'D'. Thought it was kind of funny. Those were great pics.
BTW... thanks for all you forum members that have taught me what little I know about 'modern coins'.
I find it interesting that I pointed out this finish difference at least a year ago when I received an order of SAEs in and suspected it was from die wear. Made sense to me. That post pulled in maybe half a dozen replies. Now you got this new thread on the topic and the replies goin through the roof like this is something new. Is this really the first time many of you are noticing this? I understand the coin itself is a hot topic.....
<< <i>I find it interesting that I pointed out this finish difference at least a year ago when I received an order of SAEs in and suspected it was from die wear. Made sense to me. That post pulled in maybe half a dozen replies. Now you got this new thread on the topic and the replies goin through the roof like this is something new. Is this really the first time many of you are noticing this? I understand the coin itself is a hot topic..... >>
<< <i>I find it interesting that I pointed out this finish difference at least a year ago when I received an order of SAEs in and suspected it was from die wear. Made sense to me. That post pulled in maybe half a dozen replies. Now you got this new thread on the topic and the replies goin through the roof like this is something new. Is this really the first time many of you are noticing this? I understand the coin itself is a hot topic..... >>
Do you have a link to the thread and pics? I have seen what I would call similar finishes, especially on Plats, that are die wear, this is not. When designs change things happen. Maybe they did use unfinished proof dies last year?
No pictures were taken, and I could probably find the thread archived and buried if I searched for a while, but I've never had much luck with that. Must be my key words chosen. Anyway, at the time is was just talk about the boring ol' SAEs, long before this exciting new discovery/variety.
<< <i>No pictures were taken, and I could probably find the thread archived and buried if I searched for a while, but I've never had much luck with that. Must be my key words chosen. Anyway, at the time is was just talk about the boring ol' SAEs, long before this exciting new discovery/variety. >>
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
Comments
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Obviously the planchet is still only 1 ounce, but it sure is wierd,
here is an overlay. The shiney is 50% transparent.
The unused 07 dies were all in a box, both proof and unc dies. One of the three dies used to mint the estimated 47,000 coins was for a PROOF coin... The other two from an 07 unc.
If this is the case and if these are from unfinished Proof dies, and this phenomena is being observed on the '08 obv & the '07 rev. then they would have to come together from 2 different year's dies. That would be a very strange occurrence indeed. Tends to make me believe that something else is going on here. Die wear or poorly prepared dies? Only thing is that this does not explain the stronger details on the shiny ones . . .
Regards, John
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
Regards, John
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
If you want to download a really high res of the reverse proof version here: Reverse proof high res picture
480.7 GN 1.60 " dia .11" thick
Normal
480.6 GN 1.60" dia .11" thick
-Mike
<< <i>So this is only being found on the 08/07s.
If this is the case and if these are from unfinished Proof dies, and this phenomena is being observed on the '08 obv & the '07 rev. then they would have to come together from 2 different year's dies. That would be a very strange occurrence indeed. Tends to make me believe that something else is going on here. Die wear or poorly prepared dies? Only thing is that this does not explain the stronger details on the shiny ones . . .
Regards, John >>
As I stated earlier in this thread: "I'm going with "Unfinished Proof Die" the detail in the flag is much sharper in the top coin than in the bottom coin, it would not be the first time this has happened, in 1999 unfinished proof dies were used on some $5 and $10 uncirculated Gold Eagles. You may have a new variety! "
Either that or maybe they created a new hub, if they did that they may have softened the details due to stress problems with the new dies. It could also be that these were intended for trial runs and not intended to be released, that could also explain the 07 reverse on these coins. In either case I would consider this to be a true variety!
Could these be getting a second strike like they do a proof to raise more detail? I dont know, but from the pictures presented it is clear there is more detail in the "Shiney Eagles"
Have another theory? Make your case instead of just disagreeing tell us how you believe this happened. I truely believe that others have dispelled the "Worn Die Theory" a worn die would have less detail, not more.
My Honest Opinion on this matter.
Tex
Edited to add, on an earlier post it was mentioned that the Buffalo Dollar seemed to have different finishes for the uncirculated versions. As was later disclosed by the Mint, the uncirculated Buffalo Dollars were struck at least TWO times and sometimes THREE times with a much greater preasure do get full detail. This was uncommon for uncirculated strikes for Commemorative Dollars.
This could also be the case for these.
I hope these are submitted soon to PCGS. If the persons who have these and would like them submitted and do not have an account with PCGS I will offer to submit these for you without any extra cost. If you are interested send me a PM. (You can look at my Ebay feedback and see that I can be trusted as well as references on this board that I can give you).
Tim Mayberry - Owner - Paris Coins
Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
<< <i>I am seeing these on the rev of 08's. I have searched over 500 coins and only have 12 of these. 11 reverse's and 1 with the obverse. I hae yet to see it on a rev of 07. >>
I observed the same last night while trying to image the 2 coins, for a minute I thought I had switched them, the 08/08 definately had the greater detail on the reverse only.
<< <i>The tilde looks different in the two pictures. One is long and skinny. One is short and fat. >>
I saw that but blew it off to lighting angle, maybe not....But that "S" is definitely different
<< <i>Here are some pics I took: I think its a reverse proof test die, or it missed a sandblasting step. The relief is higher on these.
If you want to download a really high res of the reverse proof version here: Reverse proof high res picture >>
That is exactly what I have on the reverse of my 08/08, who needs a camera with you guys...
And would you believe---not one offer.
Makes you doubt the value is considered equal. Why dont folks want to trade all those worn out die strike coins?
It looks to me like these will have to be classified by type.
Im not being mean--I grade all my coins through PCGS, Im a PCGS man, and I would like my team to step in here, FIRST.
Also, Its funny the mint never said there were any other issues--so were there 47,000 total wrong dies of 1 type, or 47,000 wrong dies with all types--do we have 2,000 of 1 4,000 of another...and so on.
Now i have to go sit through a few hundred ASEs looking at the shiny factor
<< <i>like Presidentials being A and B position >>
NGC dosen't give Position A or B on the holder for the FDI slab or regular slab.
Cameron Kiefer
I have some in NGC holders that are ER and Brn label. I have an example of a S/S 69, a S/S 70, and a S/M 69 and M/M 70
In PCGS FS holders, I have examples of S/S 69, and S/M 69
In my 2007 reverse variety coins, I have NGC ER M/S, S/M, S/S and in Raw, I have S/S
So we have 2008/08
M/M variety 1
M/S ? not yet seen in inventory
S/M variety 3
S/S variety 4
2008/07
M/M ? not yet seen in inventory
M/S variety 2
S/M variety 3
S/S variety 4
Anything else?
I ordered 4 on 5/8 and they were shipped today and I don;t know what to hope for anymore!
08/08 Shiney
08/08 Matte
08/07 Shiney
08/07 Matte
The name is LEE!
<< <i>I am seeing these on the rev of 08's. I have searched over 500 coins and only have 12 of these. 11 reverse's and 1 with the obverse. I hae yet to see it on a rev of 07. >>
This picture is from an 08/07. I can't remember if the entire coin was shiney or just the details of the eagle but I don't see any wear at all.
<< <i>
Now i have to go sit through a few hundred ASEs looking at the shiny factor >>
If you already went thoug them you would know if you had any. I swear you can see this from 30 ft, its that pronounced.
I have a couple at PCS right now for grading, I sent them in last week with a batch of other rev of 08's looking for 70.
<< <i>wasn't there a guy here posting to look very carefully at all 08's, the guy that was in the know before the 08/07 were discovered? Maybe he saw this and has been hoarding them? Waiting for the discover to be released....
Yup,
I think it was in this thread somewhere?
Of course he received mixed reactions.
Joe
<< <i>
<< <i>
Now i have to go sit through a few hundred ASEs looking at the shiny factor >>
If you already went thoug them you would know if you had any. I swear you can see this from 30 ft, its that pronounced.
I have a couple at PCS right now for grading, I sent them in last week with a batch of other rev of 08's looking for 70. >>
I wholeheartedly agree with your statement "I swear you can see this from 30ft, its that pronounced." I compare the look to a High relief St. Gaudens double eagle.
first of all have you ever held one of those in your hand? I have, I have owned an 07 HR Wire Rim, these are not even close to the high relief coins of 1907 or the Peace Dollars of 1921.
BTW... thanks for all you forum members that have taught me what little I know about 'modern coins'.
Who knows where all the bodies are buried on stuff like this?
How does that work?
How does the VAM system work for getting a designation?
<< <i>I find it interesting that I pointed out this finish difference at least a year ago when I received an order of SAEs in and suspected it was from die wear. Made sense to me. That post pulled in maybe half a dozen replies. Now you got this new thread on the topic and the replies goin through the roof like this is something new. Is this really the first time many of you are noticing this? I understand the coin itself is a hot topic..... >>
do you have a link to the post? Or pictures?
<< <i>I find it interesting that I pointed out this finish difference at least a year ago when I received an order of SAEs in and suspected it was from die wear. Made sense to me. That post pulled in maybe half a dozen replies. Now you got this new thread on the topic and the replies goin through the roof like this is something new. Is this really the first time many of you are noticing this? I understand the coin itself is a hot topic..... >>
Do you have a link to the thread and pics? I have seen what I would call similar finishes, especially on Plats, that are die wear, this is not. When designs change things happen. Maybe they did use unfinished proof dies last year?
<< <i>No pictures were taken, and I could probably find the thread archived and buried if I searched for a while, but I've never had much luck with that. Must be my key words chosen. Anyway, at the time is was just talk about the boring ol' SAEs, long before this exciting new discovery/variety. >>
Linky
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