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Have you ever had any of your coins "switched" ala William Sheldon's MO with EAC at the AN
SanctionII
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Whether it be a single coin, coins in an album, coins in a roll, etc., have you ever transferred possession of a coin or coins to another person (for any reason) and upon the return of the coin or coins found that what you parted with has been replaced with a different coin or coins?
No doubt this has happened and does happen and I am interested in any stories about same.
The story of Dr. Sheldon switching out EAC coins belonging to the ANA with other coins of lesser quality is interesting, particularly the fact that a long time elapsed before his malfeasance (legalese for "intentional wrongdoing") came to light.
No doubt this has happened and does happen and I am interested in any stories about same.
The story of Dr. Sheldon switching out EAC coins belonging to the ANA with other coins of lesser quality is interesting, particularly the fact that a long time elapsed before his malfeasance (legalese for "intentional wrongdoing") came to light.
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Its called greed, and every scam imaginable runs through there minds, and courses through there blood.
Trophies if you will as there achievement in the field, no different then killing, and stuffing a bald eagle for there pedestals.
Money is the root of all evil.
Most dealers are the essence of greed, and distrust, and are the bottom feeders in human evolution.
Most would have something to prove, the way they talk about money is a sure sigh they are eager to lay down every virtue in the name of greed..
You can also see there true characters by the way in which they entomb there trophies, and by the way they assign a value to there trophies hanging them on a wall for all to see.
Ps. they had to pin it on someone!
I have found power in the mysteries of thought.
It is always a question of knowing and seeing, and not that of believing.
Our virtues, and our failings are inseparable, like force, and matter. When they separate, man is no more.
.
Most dealers are the essence of greed, and distrust, and are the bottom feeders in human evolution."
I respectfully disagree with these statements.
Money is not the root of all evil. Murder, theft and evil existed long before money came into being.
Biological nature is such that organisms seek to expend as little engery as possible to fullfill their needs.
This has led some species to become parasitic.
One of the hallmarks of humanity is to overcome our "biological nature". Those people that become parasites wishing to contribute nothing and expecting to have their needs fullfilled via entitlement those are the bottom feeders of human evolution, never having progressed past the most basic biological instintics.
Dealers are a far cry from bottom feeders. Without a doubt greed is involved at times, but not all or even most transactions involve true greed, but only a basic need to obtain back more than what expended by the selling party.
The view that the collector or buyer is always or usally a victim of greed is somewhat sad.
Evil without money
Edited for evil link
<< <i>"Money is the root of all evil.
Most dealers are the essence of greed, and distrust, and are the bottom feeders in human evolution."
I respectfully disagree with these statements.
Money is not the root of all evil. Murder, theft and evil existed long before money came into being.
Biological nature is such that organisms seek to expend as little engery as possible to fullfill their needs.
This has led some species to become parasitic.
One of the hallmarks of humanity is to overcome our "biological nature". Those people that become parasites wishing to contribute nothing and expecting to have their needs fullfilled via entitlement those are the bottom feeders of human evolution, never having progressed past the most basic biological instintics.
Dealers are a far cry from bottom feeders. Without a doubt greed is involved at times, but not all or even most transactions involve true greed, but only a basic need to obtain back more than what expended by the selling party.
The view that the collector or buyer is always or usally a victim of greed is somewhat sad. >>
I agree, its sad what greed has done to the field, let it out..
through physical, and spiritual awareness.. the truth will make you free.
I have found power in the mysteries of thought.
It is always a question of knowing and seeing, and not that of believing.
Our virtues, and our failings are inseparable, like force, and matter. When they separate, man is no more.
.
<< <i>Its in the blood of the type of people who buy coins that cost thousands of dollars in hopes to sell for a profit.
Its called greed, and every scam imaginable runs through there minds, and courses through there blood.
Trophies if you will as there achievement in the field, no different then killing, and stuffing a bald eagle for there pedestals.
Money is the root of all evil.
Most dealers are the essence of greed, and distrust, and are the bottom feeders in human evolution.
Most would have something to prove, the way they talk about money is a sure sigh they are eager to lay down every virtue in the name of greed..
You can also see there true characters by the way in which they entomb there trophies, and by the way they assign a value to there trophies hanging them on a wall for all to see.
Ps. they had to pin it on someone! >>
If I were a dealer you would be the last person with whom I would wish to deal.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
<< <i>Whether it be a single coin, coins in an album, coins in a roll, etc., have you ever transferred possession of a coin or coins to another person (for any reason) and upon the return of the coin or coins found that what you parted with has been replaced with a different coin or coins?
No doubt this has happened and does happen and I am interested in any stories about same.
The story of Dr. Sheldon switching out EAC coins belonging to the ANA with other coins of lesser quality is interesting, particularly the fact that a long time elapsed before his malfeasance (legalese for "intentional wrongdoing") came to light. >>
Was it the ANA that didn't want to be implicated, or was it the ANA way of saving face pinning it on a rouge trader of sort?
two sides to a coin always. Would you have a link to the story?
I have found power in the mysteries of thought.
It is always a question of knowing and seeing, and not that of believing.
Our virtues, and our failings are inseparable, like force, and matter. When they separate, man is no more.
.
<< <i>The story of Dr. Sheldon switching out EAC coins belonging to the ANA with other coins of lesser quality is interesting, particularly the fact that a long time elapsed before his malfeasance (legalese for "intentional wrongdoing") came to light. >>
Was it the ANA that didn't want to be implicated, or was it the ANA way of saving face pinning it on a rouge trader of sort?
two sides to a coin always. Would you have a link to the story? >>
I believe it was the ANS rather than the ANA that was victomized by Sheldon.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>The story of Dr. Sheldon switching out EAC coins belonging to the ANA with other coins of lesser quality is interesting, particularly the fact that a long time elapsed before his malfeasance (legalese for "intentional wrongdoing") came to light. >>
Was it the ANA that didn't want to be implicated, or was it the ANA way of saving face pinning it on a rouge trader of sort?
two sides to a coin always. Would you have a link to the story? >>
I believe it was the ANS rather than the ANA that was victomized by Sheldon. >>
Don't drag me into this
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
but btw,
the three verses before it put it into better perspective:
1 Timothy 6:7 "For we brought nothing into this world: and certainly we can carry nothing out."
1 Timothy 6:8 "But if we have food and a roof over us, let that be enough."
1 Timothy 6:9 "But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction."
OK. That's the bible lesson for today class.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I guess if they got switched that would be an improvement for you!
<< <i>Twosides,
I guess if they got switched that would be an improvement for you!
You got that right, brother
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Although sometimes I wonder about bulk orders sent into TPG's. You get thousands and thousands of the same coins. For the most part many submitters would never know if they came out of a large pile of them.
It constantly amazes me that people post assertions without any knowledge of the facts. Your comment "they had to blame it on someone" then combined with you request for someone to post a link to the story really indicates that you probably ought not to comment on the ANS v Sheldon situation. When cases such as these arise that I know nothing bout, which happens frequently, I either keep quiet and try to learn or else post a question and ask someone to educate me. Of course, this analysis applies to situations of fact. You can, of course, comment all you want upon value judgments such as the "money is the root of all evil" assertion. I have no problem with that and I think you will almost surely be able to hold you own in any battle along those lines. But posting uninformed comments about fact matters is something I find useful to avoid.
Anyway, here is a link to the story. And, to save time, here is what was said about the ANS and Sheldon in the article:
In the early 1990s there was another legal controversy involving the Clapp collection, when it was alleged, and finally proved to a court's satisfaction, that the late Dr. William Sheldon, well-known for his book on large cents and research on old coppers, had stolen significant chunks of the Clapp collection from the ANS. Evidently, Dr. Sheldon removed specimens and substituted pieces of lesser quality. By 1997 a California Court was called upon to rule upon some of the specimens that had, years after Sheldon's death, wound up in private hands. The ANS was judged to be the legal owner of 38 early United States cents dated from 1794 to 1814, then in the possession of Roy E. Naftzger Jr.
In addition, the ruling awarded the ANS $229,500 in damages for the value of an additional 20 U.S. cents belonging to the ANS which Naftzger had previously possessed and sold. To reach this determination, the court ruled that Naftzger never had title to these coins which had been donated to the ANS in 1946 and removed from the ANS in a substitution scheme by Dr. William H. Sheldon about 1950.
There are other articles about this situation readily available on the web with just a moment's time and Google.
What I have learned is that people are willing to take pot shots at an individual, because of disagreement, or in some cases because the opinions of others don't reflect there own.
My personal reasons for posting were not influenced by the need to vent, but was directed to stirring up controversy, not a heated debate on my personal opinion.
Considering the severity of the implications mentioned, and even the party's involved.
I'm sure the ANA has there fair share of skeletons they wish to hide away too, but that did not happen today.
what is interesting to me, is how this line of scrutiny has an effect on the characters of others, who also may have personal reasons to lash out in anger.
In response to my comment, and in defense of my tact in my fact finding attempt, I conclude chivalry is not dead.
I have found power in the mysteries of thought.
It is always a question of knowing and seeing, and not that of believing.
Our virtues, and our failings are inseparable, like force, and matter. When they separate, man is no more.
.
<< <i>Whether it be a single coin, coins in an album, coins in a roll, etc., have you ever transferred possession of a coin or coins to another person (for any reason) and upon the return of the coin or coins found that what you parted with has been replaced with a different coin or coins?
No doubt this has happened and does happen and I am interested in any stories about same.
The story of Dr. Sheldon switching out EAC coins belonging to the ANA with other coins of lesser quality is interesting, particularly the fact that a long time elapsed before his malfeasance (legalese for "intentional wrongdoing") came to light. >>
Hmmm.. This is the first I have even heard of that story. But to answer your question, if most collectors are like me, they can not only tell you the story behind every coin they own, but decribe it in near perfect detail and explain to you exactly why it is undergraded. A dealer would need be pretty brash to try a trick like that. Collectors know their own coins.
By the way, there is a vast difference between the ANA and the ANS. The large cent controversy involved the ANS not the ANA.
The ANA and ANS, though different, are both very much worthwhile institutions with a wide range of benefits for their members.
Wasn't there someone on the forum that claimed the power to do so not too long ago?
It's a shame about the inaccurate title of this thread.
I guess the answer to the question in the title is "NO".
<< <i>No sorry,
Although sometimes I wonder about bulk orders sent into TPG's. You get thousands and thousands of the same coins. For the most part many submitters would never know if they came out of a large pile of them.
Just made me think of the mailman who delivers all these coins to PCGS.
<< <i>Its in the blood of the type of people who buy coins that cost thousands of dollars in hopes to sell for a profit.
Its called greed, and every scam imaginable runs through there minds, and courses through there blood.
Trophies if you will as there achievement in the field, no different then killing, and stuffing a bald eagle for there pedestals.
Money is the root of all evil.
Most dealers are the essence of greed, and distrust, and are the bottom feeders in human evolution.
Most would have something to prove, the way they talk about money is a sure sigh they are eager to lay down every virtue in the name of greed..
You can also see there true characters by the way in which they entomb there trophies, and by the way they assign a value to there trophies hanging them on a wall for all to see.
Ps. they had to pin it on someone! >>
You really need to use some examples to support your claim/s.
What was going through his mind?! What-other damage has he done that is yet to come to light?
I first heard this story when I was seven or eight years old, the old-timer Copper collectors were always murmuring something about it. I don't know Dr. Sheldon's personal feelings on the subject nor do I know if they were ever recorded. It is quite apparent, however, that he loved and admired Early Coppers. Unfortunately he ruined his memory for all time with his ruthless and foolish act.
To answer the question "Have you ever had any of your coins "switched" "? No, not personally.
One good (GREAT) remedy for this type of situation is to photograph your collection.
If you're armed with a photo of your coin you can find it, one way or another, time being your only enemy.
And yes, a heading-change would be appreciated... :-)
I specialize in Errors, Minting, Counterfeit Detection & Grading.
Computer-aided grading, counterfeit detection, recognition and imaging.
<< <i>
Most dealers are the essence of greed, and distrust, and are the bottom feeders in human evolution.
Most would have something to prove, the way they talk about money is a sure sigh they are eager to lay down every virtue in the name of greed..
>>
How long have you been collecting? I don't think you have much substantiation behind this.
I thought it would be appropriate to add some information relevant to the subject, and even to the mans work.
I found this post, so here it is.. What I found interesting was how one can see only good in a man, and another see only the bad.
If you look closely enough you may be able to see both.
How ironic of course that TPG cashed in on the DOC, and followed in his footsteps, good, and bad is evident, and still apply.
In a sense the Sheldon scale was also the essence of his demise. A fatal flaw if you will.
06-03-2007, 12:14 PM
The Sheldon Grading System Explained.
From time to time we see the current 70 point grading system referred to as being developed by Dr. William H. Sheldon. For the benefit of those who are not familiar with Dr. Sheldon’s works, here’s a summary of what he did, why he did it, and the approach he took.
It might help to know a little about Dr. Sheldon’s background. He was born in 1895, and based on his writings, became involved in numismatics at an early age. While still in high school, he claims to have appraised Cents for a coin dealer in his neck of the woods, and more interestingly, using a 70 point grading scale. That would be somewhere around 1910. Once you understand the system he developed in 1948, it becomes clear that given the amount of information available to him back then plus the amount of research necessary to develop the final product, chances are his original system was somewhat different than the end result.
Over the years, Dr. Sheldon assembled sets of early Large Cents on three different occasions. The last collection contained all 295 of the known collectible varieties from 1793 through 1814. Everyone agrees that he was an aficionado of Cents from that era and his expertise was well respected.
In 1948 he published EARLY AMERICAN CENTS which was basically the same as his later book less the updates based on new information. As much as Dr. Sheldon was respected for his expertise of the early Large Cents, his book and the concept he promoted was thought to be a “whimsical” idea. Apparently as a light hearted response to that depiction, Dr. Sheldon titled the revised edition PENNY WHIMSEY.
In developing his system, Dr. Sheldon starts out by determining the value of each variety of Large Cent in what he calls “basal state”. This he defines as identifiable and not mutilated, and assigns the numerical grade 1 (one). Everything that follows is predicated on this grade one value. Based on his research, he determined that a coin in what he calls “fair” condition, was valued at twice that of basal state and therefore he assigned the numerical grade of 2 (two). A typical “fine” being valued at 12 times basal was given the numerical grade 12 (twelve), and so on down the line up through AU55. So the numerical grades he established were determined by the multiplier he needed for his system. I’ll get to the MS information later on in this post.
Having determined the basal value for the various varieties of early Large Cents, and having determined the grade (and therefore the numerical equivalent), it was simply a matter of multiplying the two together in order to get the “approximate value” for a given Cent…….PROVIDED it was a common variety and readily available in that condition. Now, if it happens to be a scarce or rare coin either because of availability or condition, than you have to apply another multiplier to the system, and that is based on a set of ten “rules” that he developed. I’ll explain those within the MS grading descriptions.
From “poor” or “basal state” through AU55, there really isn’t much of a problem using Dr. Sheldon’s numerical scale as it can be understood by most reasonably experienced collectors. It’s in the area of MS coins where things get interesting.
Dr. Sheldon uses THREE MS grades in his system. Keep in mind that he selected the numbers 60, 65, and 70 because those were the multipliers he needed to fit his system. If the lowest possible mint state grade needed a multiplier of 80, his system might have ended up being 1-100! Here is his description for the MS grades.
“Free from any trace of wear, and the color should be that of copper coin which has been kept with great care. The color will vary from mint red to light brown or light olive, according to the chemical content and moisture of the prevailing atmosphere in which the coin has been kept. The light brown and light olive colors indicate the first beginnings of a protective patina, or surface “set.” When these colors are attractively blended and permanently set on a mint state early cent, the coin is as highly prized by discerning collectors as is one of brighter color. For condition 60 a minor blemish, perhaps some microscopic injury, or light trace of discoloration may be tolerated. For condition 70, the coin must be exactly as it left the dies, except for a slight mellowing of the color. Condition 60 means Mint State. Condition 70 means PERFECT Mint State.”
He doesn’t define the 65 grade.
Once we have the numerical grade multiplied by the basal value, we need to figure out which of the ten rules apply to the coin in question. Before we can do that, we need to know the census for that coin as well. So, in order to use this system, we need to know the grade, the basal value, the population from the top down to about the sixth finest, and which rule to apply. For example, rule number nine states that “If full MS-60 or better, but not known to be among the first three, Value equals Condition times Basal Value times 2.”
Here is an example of how the system works for a 1795 Cent, right out of his book.
The condition census is 70-70-65-65-65-65. For the 65 coins, we apply rule number 10 which says to apply rule number 8 to the first 65, and rule number 9 to the other three, average the results, multiply by the numerical grade, and multiply that result by the basal value. Everybody got that?
In case you didn’t notice, in that particular example there are not one, but two MS70’s. When was the last time you saw an MS70 1795 Large Cent of any variety or any other denomination dated 1795 using the standards developed by the ANA back in 1977? As you can see from the above, the only thing the current system took from Dr Sheldon’s work is the use of the numbers 1 through 70.
Added: As to cause, and effect.
<< <i>A tragic hero is an honorable protagonist with a tragic flaw, also known as fatal flaw, which eventually leads to his demise. The concept of the tragic hero was created in ancient Greek tragedy and defined by Aristotle. An Aristotelian tragic hero must have four characteristics: goodness, superiority - such as in terms of politics, reputation, or perceived wisdom, a tragic flaw, and a realization of both his flaw and his inevitable demise. Usually, the realization of fatal flaw results in catharsis or epiphany. The tragic flaw is sometimes referred to as an Achilles' heel after the single fatal flaw of the Greek warrior Achilles. >>
I would like to add, many have fallen by way of Dr. Sheldon’s scale, and many, many have yet to fall.
Because they embrace, and hold its scales so dear.
In the end its a mans heart that is weighed.
I have found power in the mysteries of thought.
It is always a question of knowing and seeing, and not that of believing.
Our virtues, and our failings are inseparable, like force, and matter. When they separate, man is no more.
.
The ANA does have its share of skeletons...some with much flesh remaining on the bone. Nonetheless, the positives about the organization still outweigh the negatives.
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
It's a shame he didn't present accurate information about the first United States Mint, and that it was merely one of the smaller rear wooden structures that burned. In reality, the main front building was brick and the middle coinage building was stone.
Walter Breen copied and embellished much from Sheldon. This has led directly to the mis-classification of pre-1850s proof-like US coinage.
It was Sheldon who stated "Proofs were first used as presentation pieces, principally for politicians, members of Congress, and the like". This is a complete fabrication based on actual research conducted by later numismatist's (myself included). Although some coinage was "sent" to various politicians by the Mint Directors, he doesn't even mention "Master-coins", which is the terminology that was actually used by Mint Officials in written descriptions from the 1840s & 1850s. Proof coins were struck primarily for collectors anyway.
This misinformation was presented in Sheldon's book right before his proposed 1-70 grading scale, which was obsolete for large cents within 5 years; yet it is still embraced by the industry today.
Sheldon had other issues within his occupational field of research concerning the classification of mankind by anatomy, but that is another area that we don't really need to delve into.
Regrettably, Sheldon, like Breen are "respected" today by people without proper background knowledge.