VG10 vs. F12 vs. F15 confusion
veryfine
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There are endless arguments when the subject of grading mint state coins arises; MS65 or MS66, MS61 or 62, 68 or 69.
But I have observed many "opinions" when grading circulated coins as well.
The dividing line that separates VG10 and F12 should be well established by now, right? Market grading does cloud the issue, but when grading coins like Indian cents or Barbers, the respected grading services should get it right 99.9 percent of the time. However, when we see coins pictured in here, the "opinions" are loud and clear: "not enough LIBERTY for a FINE; more like a F12, not the assigned F15; not enough detail for a F12 so I would grade it VG10, etc."
Take Indian cents, for example. PCGS does not rely on the "full LIBERTY" as the main criteria for these circulated grades. In addition, weakly struck dates are taken into consideration. A F15 1877 Indian cent, for example, can have a mushy, unclear LIBERTY. This makes sense to me, as I have yet to see a full, clear LIBERTY in any of the FINE grades for this date. If I do see these complete details, it undoubtedly makes it to the next grade, VF20.
Despite the grades assigned by the top services, collectors boast about "their standards" and how "in the old days, that particular F12 would be a VG10." Barber experts seem to be the most vocal on this VG10 vs. F12 issue.
What's your take on this?
But I have observed many "opinions" when grading circulated coins as well.
The dividing line that separates VG10 and F12 should be well established by now, right? Market grading does cloud the issue, but when grading coins like Indian cents or Barbers, the respected grading services should get it right 99.9 percent of the time. However, when we see coins pictured in here, the "opinions" are loud and clear: "not enough LIBERTY for a FINE; more like a F12, not the assigned F15; not enough detail for a F12 so I would grade it VG10, etc."
Take Indian cents, for example. PCGS does not rely on the "full LIBERTY" as the main criteria for these circulated grades. In addition, weakly struck dates are taken into consideration. A F15 1877 Indian cent, for example, can have a mushy, unclear LIBERTY. This makes sense to me, as I have yet to see a full, clear LIBERTY in any of the FINE grades for this date. If I do see these complete details, it undoubtedly makes it to the next grade, VF20.
Despite the grades assigned by the top services, collectors boast about "their standards" and how "in the old days, that particular F12 would be a VG10." Barber experts seem to be the most vocal on this VG10 vs. F12 issue.
What's your take on this?
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In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I couldn’t agree more.
But, there are some "experts" out there who use certain strict grading criteria as a way to support their "high standards", with little or no room for exceptions. In other words, "PCGS says F12, but it is really a VG10, and I would not pay F12 money for it." This type of collector/dealer sees himself as possessing higher standards than the major grading services. Sometimes, I perceive this as a bit self-serving, especially if this person is selling coins.
Keep in mind that I am referring to problem-free circulated coins, with wear being the main factor.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>I am intimately familiar with grading circulated Barber halves and I wish it was so easy that only LIBERTY had to be inspected. Not all coins wear in the same manner and not all mints strike coins with the same quality in every year, which means that for Barber halves one must look at the entire coin to make a determination as to the totality of the remaining details, in my opinion. To do otherwise would to put one in danger of trivializing the coin in a way that the FB, FBL, FT and FH designations trivialize coins. >>
As another circulated Barber expert/enthusiast (and as usual), I agree with Tom 100%.
But there are some coins which have F+ details without full LIBERTY. To people who live and die by that headband, the coin can be no better than VG-10 no matter how much detail remains elsewhere.
Also confusing this is that on different series, LIBERTY wears down at a different rate. Look at the Seated Dimes with no drapery from 1837 to 1840, for example. LIBERTY tends to wear faster on these coins and coins which has Fine detail (and would likely have a full LIBERTY in later seated dimes) would likely have some of its LIBERTY missing. In fact, one of these early Seated Dimes with a very weak (but full) LIBERTY probably has VF details overall. Twenty centers are the same way. If it has a full LIBERTY, it's probably better than Fine, and if only a couple of letters are missing, it's probably better than VG.
<< <i>I simply assign what I believe to be the most accurate grade to any raw coin and assign what I believe to be the most accurate value to any PCGS or NGC slabbed coin. If they are offered for sale then I expect others to determine for themselves if they are getting satisfactory value for the dollar just as I do so for myself when looking to buy coins. >>
Bingo - very well stated. And you need to know the market(s) for your series along with this. This ought to become the mantra for everyone here, but this type of thinking comes after lots of experience, study, and thought. The sooner the better for some
<< <i>But there are some coins which have F+ details without full LIBERTY. To people who live and die by that headband, the coin can be no better than VG-10 no matter how much detail remains elsewhere. >>
Yes, you are right, and this type of thinking makes no sense to me. There are Barber coins with completely outlined obverse wreath detail, and a good amount of reverse feather detail, yet LIBERTY is missing a letter or two. Am I to conclude that this coin is a VG10? No way. It is a no questions FINE or better.
I have seen Liberty nickels with strong VF hair detail, but the "I" in Liberty is completely worn away. VG10? No, I say F15.
Since 1921 is considered an early date that has different wear characteristics, I'll say it was graded F15.
I agree with Dennis.
F15
I brought up this point to a dealer at a recent show regarding the grading of Barber Halves and Quarters. Strictly speaking, I was under the impression that to qualify for a F-12 grade, you need to see all the letters in LIBERTY. That is how Photograde defines a F-12 for the Barber series. However, this dealer said if I were to bring that up, I would have half the dealers at the show arguing that you don't need all the letters in LIBERTY to get a F-12 grade. He said to look at the "meat" of the coin, which I thought was how much relief was still left of the coin. There was a lot of relieft left, the leaves on the headband were defined, but the coin was missing a letter.
He ended up by telling me if I brought up the strict definition of F-12 having ALL the letters, I would have a RIOT on my hands.
<< <i>
The dividing line that separates VG10 and F12 should be well established by now, right? Market grading does cloud the issue, but when grading coins like Indian cents or Barbers, the respected grading services should get it right 99.9 percent of the time. >>
What makes you say this? I disagree.
<< <i>[ However, this dealer said if I were to bring that up, I would have half the dealers at the show arguing that you don't need all the letters in LIBERTY to get a F-12 grade. He said to look at the "meat" of the coin, which I thought was how much relief was still left of the coin. There was a lot of relieft left, the leaves on the headband were define. >>
I wonder if they say that when they are buying just like they would when they are selling...
That might be true, but that's why all their coins are raw. The TPGs still use the old rules.
That might be true, but that's why all their coins are raw. The TPGs still use the old rules.
Bingo.
<< <i> "He ended up by telling me if I brought up the strict definition of F-12 having ALL the letters, I would have a RIOT on my hands."
That might be true, but that's why all their coins are raw. The TPGs still use the old rules.
Bingo. >>
In my experience, both PCGS and NGC are very sloppy with respect to grading Barber halves in the VG10-VF25 range where coins that are missing quite a bit of the lower portions of the letters in LIBERTY will be sitting in VF25 holders while other coins with nearly as much of LIBERTY will be in VG10 holders. I have seen this many times over the years, so you cannot state that the TPGs are using "old rules" for Barber half dollars.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I don’t know what happened, but the different grading services seemed to have minds of their own when it came to circulated grading standards. One was better than the next one and so on, but with others there was so much flex in the standards you quickly became confused at times who had the correct designation and grade.
All this has “rubbed off” to the collector, it’s like who are we to believe?
A few have come a long way since the explosion of grading services in the mid 90’s up until now, but standards are far from being set, just as each denomination is different in some way, grades for those circulated specimens will fluctuate like the stock market.
You wonder if anyone will ever get on the same page…maybe one day, but for now, pick a standard and stay with it, your as close to being right as the next guy.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
May I offer pics of two 04-S Barber Halves I own. They are both in PCGS holders. The first is a VG10 and the second is a F12. Note that the scratch in the second pic is on the holder. I know its hard to grade from a pic, but since it's all we have here take a look and please offer opinions as to the differences between the two. I'd like to hear what everyone thinks. Thanks.
VG10
F12
The differences between a VG-10 and the F-12 are subtle but evident. The amount of ribbon left in the bottom of LIBERTY plus what’s left of the lower letters of the F-12 are better defined than the VG-10.
Also, the Laurel leaves in the F-12 are a bit more defined than the VG-10’s, especially right above her ear.
The reverse shows separation of the feathers on the eagles (his left) right wing…you can count 4 feather separations on the F-12 while only 3 separations on the VG-10 along with a bit more definition in the eagles head.
All these and other nuances add up to another point grade and may I add that those are some nice 04-S’s
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>Since 1921 is considered an early date that has different wear characteristics, I'll say it was graded F15. >>
Dennis - I think I would disagree here. There are few modifications made to the the design over it's life that influence the wear characteristics. Most of the changes were made to the gown lines and neck area to improve the appearance; these areas are not really used to evaluate wear, but can be used to judge strike quality. The bust line is the key, and is very consistent over the whole series. And unlike the horn on a buffalo nickel, or LIBERTY on various series' headbands, is rarely subject to strike weakness.
<< <i>
<< <i>
The dividing line that separates VG10 and F12 should be well established by now, right? Market grading does cloud the issue, but when grading coins like Indian cents or Barbers, the respected grading services should get it right 99.9 percent of the time. >>
What makes you say this? I disagree. >>
The specific attributes of virtually every date and mintmark combination for the above mentioned series have long been established. Therefore, a handful of experienced graders should accurately assign a grade based on WEAR, the main criteria for grading circulated coins. I expect less disagreement with regard to grades like VG or F than with MS61, 62, 63, 64, 65, and so on.
Yes, grading standards change.
Yes, grading is subjective.
Yes, graders make mistakes.
Now that I've stated the obvious, what exactly do you disagree with?
<< <i>Over the years, I have seen a “softening” of the grade standards of say the 60’s, 70’s and up until 1985. Then, the grading services were born and the collectors all thought, “Now, once and for all, we will have grades equal across the boards!” HUH!
I don’t know what happened, but the different grading services seemed to have minds of their own when it came to circulated grading standards. One was better than the next one and so on, but with others there was so much flex in the standards you quickly became confused at times who had the correct designation and grade.
All this has “rubbed off” to the collector, it’s like who are we to believe?
A few have come a long way since the explosion of grading services in the mid 90’s up until now, but standards are far from being set, just as each denomination is different in some way, grades for those circulated specimens will fluctuate like the stock market.
You wonder if anyone will ever get on the same page…maybe one day, but for now, pick a standard and stay with it, your as close to being right as the next guy. >>
I see the grading standards of the 60s, 70s and 80s as being too simplistic. There are too many nuances that were ignored back in the old days. The top grading services of today recognize this and assign grades accordingly. PCGS clarifies their grading standards for Indian cents, for example. They examine the headress detail, concluding that it is a better indication of an IHC grade than the letters of LIBERTY. I think this makes perfect sense, and it indicates a more enlightened grading standard than in previous years.
I remember owning some coins back in the 80s, knowing that they technically wouldn't make the FINE grade, due to incomplete LIBERTY detail. But, I knew, based on overall boldness and additional surrounding detail, that they should easily grade F12 or better. Just because a Liberty nickel is missing the letter "I" in LIBERTY, it cannot make the F12 grade? Back in the 70s, that was part of the so called "tight standards." Come on. The standards weren't higher, but the level of ignorance was.
<< <i>I find that sometimes the TPGs march to their own drummer. What would you grade this one:
If it's PCGS, they probably gave it a VG10.