UPDATE! --- Poll: Eisenhower 1971-D RDV-006
19Lyds
Posts: 26,492 ✭✭✭✭
Earth Difference from a Type 1 (Common 1971-D) and the Type 6.
Eagle Difference from a Type 1 (Common 1971-D) and the Type 6.
Crater Difference from a Type 1 (Common 1971-D) and the Type 6.
Yeah I know I screwed this up.
Eagle Difference from a Type 1 (Common 1971-D) and the Type 6.
Crater Difference from a Type 1 (Common 1971-D) and the Type 6.
Yeah I know I screwed this up.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
The name is LEE!
The name is LEE!
0
Comments
The name is LEE!
Good Luck with your quest....I hope you get PCGS to come around!!!
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
I challenge any negative voter to explain their vote.
The FEV is a HUGE new Ike Design Variety with a wonderfuly story and a lot of mystery still to be solved.
That PCGS is not attributing the FEV, even as the awkward RDV-006, is a function of in-house protocols and is not in any way a reflection that this Variety is not the biggest "New Ike" since Herb Hicks noticed, studied and reported on the '72 T2.
Other Ike Varieties have not settled. The Straight Peg Leg '71-S BS Silver Ike is also real, legitimate, and deserving of attribution separate from the Fading Peg Leg (both are Design Varieties, period), but I can understand PCGS holding back as some Ike nuts are not on board yet.
The FEV, on the other hand, is a no-brainer. PCGS, you do not need the approbation of the CPG, Red Book or any other "referee" of new Varieties to publish their approval!
PCGS, wake up before you start losing the Ike crowd... You attribute fleeting-fancy hyper moderns and raise funds by all this artificial "First Strike" nonesense yet irefuse to budge on a major Variety in a Major series?? Come on!!!
The Ike Group has signaled its willingness to work with PCGS but so far PCGS remains largely a black box. We offered to submit 100 FEV's to get the ball rolling if PCGS would attribute them, even as the un-lovable RDV-006. No response. The black box is a black hole.
Bottom line is PCGS is not willing to make their own inhouse decisions about adding Varieties and insist on waiting for their appearance in CPG and Red Book. That's the reality. Too bad, when the potential Variety is in-your-vace obvious, real, interesting, and there are a few thousand subs and re-subs in the wings waiting for PCGS to do the obvious. Rob
(edit) In fairness to PCGS I should add that the NAME of the FEV is not fully settled. The Ike Group believes that FEV is a well-reasoned and appropriate name but "RDV-006" is still in the hunt. So PCGS has to grow a pair and decide in favor of the collector-friendly "Friendly Eagle Variety". Is PCGS dedicated to helping the average collector or to promoting CONECA's catalog system?
Is there any important Variety in an established completed series still known by a catalog number? PCGS, why do you print "HOT LIPS" on that great DDO Morgan:"? Do you even know its catalog number? Or with Ikes will you squeeze all the different catalog numbers of a given Variety onto your tags (We've got Wiles, we've got Wexler, we've got CPG)?
PCGS, if you are interested, the Ike Group is devising a universal system of naming all Ikes which is intuitive, conveys all the information one needs to exactly define which Ike one is dealing with, and it's tag friendly. The Ike Group is happy to work with any TPG that has the insight and forsight to show interest.
PCGS??? Rob
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
I know I put it in the poll but in reality each collector should care because if this variety gets passed over, it could very well be the "I don't care"'s varieties that get passed over next time.
A no is a simple answer indicating that you may or may not be aware of the variety. Understand that this is not a "Mint State Variety" such as the VAM's but a true variety along the same lines as the Type 1, Type 2, and Type 3 IKE's.
The name is LEE!
I VOTED...."YES".
Happy Hunting!
Brian
I Love
AND....I'll love them even MORE when PCGS starts recognizing and attributing them!
The IKE Guys WANT the "FEV" aka RDV-006 in The IKE Varieties Set.
GrandAm
Collectors, OTOH, should seriously consider them if they collect Ikes. I think for moderns, hub varieties should be considered important. They are similar to say 1960/1970/1982 small date/large dates.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
It's all a matter of time before PCGS recognizes the RDV-006. Why should they turn money down? Plenty of people (myself included) waiting to submit their RDV-006's to PCGS.
You drive on Lee
I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!
Tell us how you really feel
GrandAm
<< <i>I voted no, but only because I don't think TPG's should exist. Thus, they also should not recognize anything.
Collectors, OTOH, should seriously consider them if they collect Ikes. I think for moderns, hub varieties should be considered important. They are similar to say 1960/1970/1982 small date/large dates. >>
I guess you don't know how many times I've been asked if its a real RDV-006 then! Or, if its special, then why doesn't PCGS recognize it! I even had one guy state that since PCGS doesn't recognize it, its just anopther 1971-D and should be sold as that! People believe the labels, TPG's are supposed to be 3rd party, unbiased, experts that can be relied upon for authenticity and variety verification/validation. To people that do not know, yes, they are just 1971-D's and I've purchased my fair share looking for the FEV's.
You can collect pert near anything you want in this world, but it really only has value, and I'm speaking of inherited value and not what I value it at, if somebody else recognizes it as having value. At this point in time, TPG's add that value so that my children can get a reasonable estimate on what my coins are worth when I am gone. If not, then they'd be at the mercy of someone that would say "Oh they're just IKE's, worth a buck apiece!"
As for the RDV-006 FEV's, same thing, "Oh they're just 1971-D IKE's, worth a buck apiece!" I would rather not burden them with the heartache of finding out they sold some very valuable coins as simply common IKE's.
I would really hate for my collection of FEV's to get sold as simply 1971-D's when they are so much more significant than a regular 1971-D.
The name is LEE!
Keep up the fight, Ikes seem to get very little respect. The 1971 - RDV-006 is so different that it is a same that it is not considered by the major TPG's. I have several and will allways cherish them for being unique and quite interesting.
Robert.
Speaking of no brains, What does FEV mean and how common are these?
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
JP
Capped Bust Half Dollars by Variety & Die State Pictorial Refrence
Oh yeah, I voted YES. I don't know how anyone that understands what these are could vote otherwise.
As far as what designation to use (FEV, RDV-006, etc), I think this is the important point so it will be compatible with existing and future variety discoveries.
Aaron
Go to http://varietyvista.com/ and click on "design varieties"; you'll see Ikes and the site has both Obv and Rev varieties.
JP
Capped Bust Half Dollars by Variety & Die State Pictorial Refrence
<< <i>I voted yes. No brainer.
Speaking of no brains, What does FEV mean and how common are these? >>
FEV = Friendly Eagle Variety (See Eagle Pics above. The Type 1 Eagle has a furrowed brow making it appear angry. The Type 6 does not.)
They are not very common but definitely findable. Kinda like the Type 2's.
For some quick variety lessons:
Type 4 is the BiCentennial Type 1 Reverse
Type 5 is the BiCentennial Type 2 Reverse
The name is LEE!
Speaking of no brains, What does FEV mean and how common are these?>>
FEV stands for Friendly Eagle Variety as versus the only other 1971 circulation strike "angry" eagle Type 1 (aka RDV-001) with its unique hawkished furrowed brow line.
Mintage of the FEV is estimated as 500,000 give or take a few hundred thousand.
At least, our completely independently derived answers agree.
Boggles the mind why they aren't.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
Didn't mean too!
BTW, the mintage is an estimate as there are many many variables.
The US Mint produced figures stating "average" number of strikes per die and obv and rev dies were not changed in pairs. So, if these were in fact proof die's (which averaged 3,500 coins per die) the die life could have been much shorter. High relief dies just did not do well with the hard copper nickel planchet's.
But we'll never really know how many there are unless some type of trackability is added. Since PCGS keeps population reports on all their attributed coins, I was hoping that they would add this one so that we could get a reasonable estimate on how many were produced.
I know that the number graded is not an accurate method but it would shed some light on what is out there right now.
Considering that the Type 2 was estimated at 100,000 and the fact that they are considered rare by some, if you look at the pop reports, PCGS gas graded less than 1,000 total for all grades. NGC has graded 216 across all grades.
So, of possibly 100,000, only 1216 have made it into slabs.
Just rambling now but it would be nice to start seeing some type of census on the FEV's.
The name is LEE!
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
The name is LEE!
Which is too bad.
After all, it only took them about 7 days to recognize the "different" reverse for the 2008 SAE's (after NGC of Course) yet the "different" reverse for the 1971-D has been known about for 9 years!
It's not like its some obscure DDO or DDR but this is actually a different reverse variety.
For those of you that have been searching for RDV-006's over that past year, I recommend that you place your vote, otherwise, all you have is just another IKE!
The name is LEE!
just completed 3d tour to Iraq and retired after 28+ years in the US Army
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
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wow, thanks for lumping me in with all the other collectors who don't necessarily agree with you. what a...............well, maybe i'll stop there. my reasoning is simple: in the past 10+ years the hobby has simply gone Variety Crazy over really insignificant moderations made to the design. certainly many of these are interesting and add enjoyment to the hobby but i just don't agree that every design modification on every coin needs to be catalogued, recognized and collected in earnest. thinking that doesn't make me right or wrong and it certainly doesn't mean i don't know Ikes, period.
it simply means i don't think that the 1971-D RDV-006 should be considered a Variety for the Complete IKE's Variety Set. clear things up any??
<< <i>it simply means i don't think that the 1971-D RDV-006 should be considered a Variety for the Complete IKE's Variety Set. clear things up any?? >>
Keets,
I have always considered you a pretty sharp guy and you are surely entitled to your opinion but "I JUST DON"T GET IT" in this case. Look at Lee's photo's. The RDV-006 is just as much a variety in the IKE Series as the 1972-P TY 1, TY 2 & TY 3.
Hell we are looking at the same area on all four coins PLUS the RDV-006 has several other markers in addition to the little earth area we are talking about on 1972-P coins. If the FEV aka RDV-006 isn't a legitimate variety then nothing is.
PCGS really needs to add this coin to the new Complete Varieties Set. PCGS has stated in the past that the registry is for the collectors. It seems clear to me from Lee's Poll that the IKE guys want this coin in the set.
Also I though PCGS polled the top set owners in a series to see what they thought or wanted to be included or added when they were considering making a change????? Has that practice stopped?
JMNO, GrandAm
So, here's my stupid observation.
Do friendly eagles cross? Or is it just the angry eagles that get cross easily?
With respect to the PCGS Registry, based on my experience in the hobby and understanding of terminology I don't see why DDO's are considered varieties instead of errors (at least in the new Ike sets that this thread is discussing). I would understand these being part of an Ike Major Error set, but think the actual design varieties like the 71-S peg legs, the 3 71 reverses, and the FEV are what should make up the major variety sets. Can anyone explain what I am misunderstanding, or what PCGS thought is on this?
Aaron
the thing is that i don't think we need to have all these die varieties recognized and attributed by a grading service, like all the VAM's and theBust Half varieties. certainly that's good for collectors who enjoy that kind of stuff but it sort of puts us on a slip[pery slope where we then expect them to attribute every nuance that a group of collectors is able to find with the series they collect.
consider Brian's reply: If someone can give me the secret to get a TPG to recognize an obvious variety (actually an obvious type)-----i can't be sure, but he might be thinking of the 1902 Lib Nickel that has two distinct reverses but isn't recognized by anyone(i think it's 1902). each series has stuff like this and it really gains importance only with the guys that collect it. in that sense, perhaps PCGS should recognize it for the Registry, but like i said in my first reply, i voted no and have stated in the past that i think PCGS needs to do less and not more, they need to just grade our coins and stick to things like authenticity and other more important stuff than die variety study.leave that to the collectors who know it and recognize it despite the insert not saying what it is.
probably nobody will admit it, but it really comes down to money in the end. with more individual varieties, there are bound to be some that are more scarce than others which command a premium that the collectors want to reap. call me a cynic, call me whatever you want to, but that's how i feel and why i voted no.
I understand what you are saying but,,,,,,,and there is always a but,,,,,,,, PCGS now has a Basic IKE Dollar Set which requires NONE of the special coins or varieties. Anyone who doesn't want to participate in the varieties set doesn't have to and can have a complete set without doing so.
My point is PCGS should give the players within a certain set what "the players" in that set want.
We now have (3) Circulation Strike sets.
#1 - Basic Set - no varieties at all.
#2 Major Varieties Set - this is the old varieties set. Same as it was------no changes except the name. RDV-006 is a Major Variety and belongs in this set as well as in the Complete Varieties Set.
#3 - Complete Varieties Set - the old set plus the (2) new coins. The RDV-006 should be in this set as well.
Given the fact that the Basic set exists and requires NO Varieties I can't see why anyone would be opposed to adding the FEV aka RDV-006 to the New Complete Varieties Set AND The Major Varieties Set???
Nobody will be forced to buy any coins that they don't want to keep their set complete.
JMHO, GrandAm
<< <i>Lee, good poll! The few negative votes do not know Ikes, period.
wow, thanks for lumping me in with all the other collectors who don't necessarily agree with you. what a...............well, maybe i'll stop there. my reasoning is simple: in the past 10+ years the hobby has simply gone Variety Crazy over really insignificant moderations made to the design. certainly many of these are interesting and add enjoyment to the hobby but i just don't agree that every design modification on every coin needs to be catalogued, recognized and collected in earnest. thinking that doesn't make me right or wrong and it certainly doesn't mean i don't know Ikes, period.
it simply means i don't think that the 1971-D RDV-006 should be considered a Variety for the Complete IKE's Variety Set. clear things up any?? >>
I like all varieties. They provide clues and insights into the distribution and use of coins
because they usually all originate from one place at one time. Of course I have no interest
in obtaining or collecting insignificant varieties that someone else discoverd especially if
the discoverer isn't in my area or I find it late.
But I am interested in major varieties and this is one I found back in the day. Unfortunately
the example I had was a poor one and I took it as a strike variety rather than a die variety
so I'm not even sure I saved it.
Varieties are probably becoming more popular since regular issues haven't had any small
mintages since it became mint policy in '32/'33. If there aren't any absolutely rare coins
it's only natural that collectors might seek conditionally rare coins and varieties.
Obviously these won't appeal to everyone and doing what other people think might be the
only wrong way to collect.
Perhaps a solution would be to have more Ike sets ranging from no varieties to including
even the most minor. But I do think this one should rank fairly high on the list since it really
affects the overall look of the coin (the reverse).
probably i should have shut the hell up and kept my opinion to myself. go ahead and argue among yourselves, but if you like Polls you had better get used to the idea that not everyone will agree with you. have a nice day and good luck getting PCGS to attribute the variety. if they don't and won't i surely hope you're wearing a diaper when you find out.
<< <i>my last comment, because really the whole discussion is freakin' stupid. it's a Poll for God's sake, and i answered the question and was summarily grouped as someone who doesn't know Ike's, so i replied with my reason as to why i don't think the variety should be included. one really has nothing to do with the other.
probably i should have shut the hell up and kept my opinion to myself. go ahead and argue among yourselves, but if you like Polls you had better get used to the idea that not everyone will agree with you. have a nice day and good luck getting PCGS to attribute the variety. if they don't and won't i surely hope you're wearing a diaper when you find out. >>
I think everyone is just interested in your opinion, especially since everyone knows it's based on something. It is a minority opinion which makes it even more interesting.
Obviously everyone isn't going to agree.
"Anyone who votes no had better give an explanation"
Yikes.
It's all good. To each their own. Collecting is far to vast and broad for me to naysay a field I know little about.
Heck, it seems to me, with my ignorant viewpoint, that these Ike differences are more pronounced than what I see from the vammers. And since the vammers have gotten hundreds of "identical to my eye" coins selling at hundreds of dollars...and it makes folks happy...more power to them!
I voted yes because I fear the consequences of getting on the wrong side of folks on this forum.
I am indifferent to if PCGS recognizes and includes the 1971-D RDV-006 Ike Dollar. It is a nice looking coin and should stand on its own merits.
My feelings on the subject, is that PCGS is a grading company and should limit their endeavors to that field of study. If PCGS wants to get into the “attribution” of varieties, then they are free to do so but they should utilize an independent “authoritative source” or recognized reference book(s) by the hobby so to eliminate the appearance of bias on what varieties they attribute. With the modern coins, one of the recognized reference books of the hobby is the “Cherrypickers’ Guide by Bill Fivaz and J.T. Stranton”. So to me, the first hurtle would be to get the “Cherrypickers Guide” or something equivalent that the hobby will except to list the variety that you want.
Not to change the subject, but my son and I are working on a complete set of Kennedy Half Dollars with varieties and we are building it trying to have all of the varieties that CONECA recognizes. The Cherrypickers’ Guide only lists a fraction of the varieties that CONECA does and PCGS will only attribute the varieties listed in the Cherrypickers guide plus for some unknown reason in the Registry, PCGS wants / has included the mysteries 1964 SMS that I can not find listed in any reference book (either legitimate or other wise) as a “variety”.
Who knows, maybe PCGS will, in the Registry, require the 1976 “no S” proof Ike Dollar as part of the “Eisenhower Dollars Complete Variety Proof (1971-1978)” set or the “Eisenhower Dollars Complete Variety, Circulation Strikes and Proofs (1971-1978)” set.
“Be careful what you wish for!”
And I think VAM collecting os great BTW.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
<< <i>Lee, good poll! The few negative votes do not know Ikes, period.
wow, thanks for lumping me in with all the other collectors who don't necessarily agree with you. what a...............well, maybe i'll stop there. my reasoning is simple: in the past 10+ years the hobby has simply gone Variety Crazy over really insignificant moderations made to the design. certainly many of these are interesting and add enjoyment to the hobby but i just don't agree that every design modification on every coin needs to be catalogued, recognized and collected in earnest. thinking that doesn't make me right or wrong and it certainly doesn't mean i don't know Ikes, period.
it simply means i don't think that the 1971-D RDV-006 should be considered a Variety for the Complete IKE's Variety Set. clear things up any?? >>
<< <i>Gary, maybe i don't think that the three 1972-P's should be in the set either. >>
Geez Al, you mean like these:
Jefferson 1939 Reverse of 1938
Jefferson 1939-D Reverse of 1938
Jefferson 1939-S Reverse of 1938
Jefferson 1939 Reverse of 1940
Jefferson 1939-D Reverse of 1940
Jefferson 1939-S Reverse of 1940
The 1971-D RDV-006 is just as much a variety as these six coins.
Also, I think Gary nailed it when he stated: "My point is PCGS should give the players within a certain set what "the players" in that set want."
Oh and BTW, for anybody thats reading, these are not "minor nuances" in the Eisenhower series. These are limited mintage, completely different reverses exactly along the same lines as that freaking 2008 reverse of 2007 SAE.
The reality is that nobody gives a flying fish fart about the Eisenhower dollar for whatever silly reason they can come up with except for the folks that really LOOK at these coins for what they really are: The very Last Large Dollar coin ever made by the mint!
The name is LEE!
We will see If PCGS pays attention.....
Who knows, they could be watching us....................
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
Check it out --> Our eBay Auctions
<< <i>Nice Poll.
We will see If PCGS pays attention.....
Who knows, they could be watching us....................
Well they were certainly watching when this one came around!
Given the significance of the FEV "variety" I think PCGS should recognize it even though it isn't in the CPG. Heck, had anybody really "known" about it while the CPG was being written, I have absolutely no doubts that it would have been included! Can we wait until the next edition of the CPG comes out? Sure, why not, but remember all the trouble folks had trying to get this latest edition! I think a lynch mob was being formed as folks had paid up front for the book at least a year before it was released! Writing a book is no easy task and getting it printed can take years.
The Type 1, Type 2, and Type 3 1972 coins aren't in the CPG but I then we're referring to established varieties! It wasn't always that way folks! There are still quite a few 1972 Type 2 IKEs out there in PCGS slabs that are not attributed as Type 2's.
The whole point of the thread/poll is to get folks looking at their 1971-D's because there IS a different variety coin out there but if you don't look, you'll never see it! And if you don't have some reference on what to look FOR, you'll never spot it. I've tried to provide that reference over the past couple of years and continue to do so in this thead.
Why is it so important to get PCGS to recognize this coin? Simple, because it is different and its not different because of die state. It is a different design with different design elements.
I tried to sell one on eBay and got a question from a prospective buyer: "why doesnt pcgs recognize this as a variety , until it is graded as a variety it is only a 1971-D PCGS MS66. PCGS price guide which is always over priced is at $200.00 , at least have it regraded and sell it for what it is."
Either this fellow was serious or was trying for a rip but it doesn't matter as what he said is right on. Folks trust PCGS otherwise they wouldn't buy the slabs or have coins graded. Not everybody can be an expert on a specific series of coins but PCGS can be used as a guide line for what is and what is not a certifiable variety. I can say its a variety all day long but unless my statements can be backed up by certification from a major TPG, its just my word that it actually is a specific variety.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>my reasoning is simple: in the past 10+ years the hobby has simply gone Variety Crazy over really insignificant moderations made to the design. >>
By 10+ years do you mean 48 years? (I.E. 1960 large date/small dates). That's how I view the hub changes.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
Homerun Hall, CoinKing and PCGS are you reading this thread and the Poll? PLEASE add this coin to these (2) sets.
JMHO, GrandAm
While scarce, the 1971 S/S is certainly a valid varieity. However, including that particular coin over the widely recognized RDV-006 quite honestly qualifies for the "Ex-Lax Bonehead Move of the Month" Award.