Has this frustrating grading topic been discussed before?

uofa1285 · April 13, 2008 3:19PM

Okay, I think the grading companies should give a refund to submitters who can document that they got their specific toned coins back in BBs and then see the f*&^%* in one of the big two holders sometime later! Some of us submit multiple times 'cause we're sure its NT but finally give up after $150 in lost submission fees...

What do you think?

Doug

GoldenEyeNumismatics · April 13, 2008 3:20PM

<< 
What do you think?
>>

It would never work.

BECOKA · April 13, 2008 3:40PM

Grading is subjective and if your coin goes to a different grader each time then you might get one that subjectively says NT. If the others are not sure it is questionable.

No winning here. We all feel your pain though.

Elcontador · April 13, 2008 4:52PM

I once wrote on here about a guy who submitted a Seated $ 11 times until he got it into a 5 holder. I believe Lustig submitted a 3 legger more times than that to get the coin into what he thought was its proper holder.

I try to buy coins that are nice for the grade so I don't have to deal with the sort of thing you describe. However, it is incredibly annoying when I have a coin in a 4 holder, line it up with three others in 5 holders and mine is the nicer coin. Then I send it in for regrade twice and it comes back in a 4 holder each time.

Coxe · April 13, 2008 5:15PM

The contrarian perspective might be that the time the coin made the plastic was the grading mistake, not all the previous ones. All of them will make a mistake now and then. Consistency might not be all there all the time, but if consistency is that far off the mark, then independent grading is highly suspect. I do not think it is suspect, even if I too have a probem with the occasional BB. One recent one particularly irks me. Came back as altered surfaces. Yes, the die's surfaces were altered (not the coin's) and that is the whole point of that variety's value. I jave another one in grading where the fields on the reverse die were ground down and have a weird raised look on the cloin around all of the devices. If it comes back in bag, I will blow a gasket.

BIGJAYVEE · April 13, 2008 5:54PM

Coxe's comment about varieties made me think of another question.We all know that John Roberts with Anacs(if he's still there)is a variety specialist.Who does the variety grading for PCGS?Does anybody know?

291fifth · April 13, 2008 9:38PM

Not a chance of that happening.

chiefbob · April 13, 2008 10:04PM

<< Coxe's comment about varieties made me think of another question.We all know that John Roberts with Anacs(if he's still there)is a variety specialist.Who does the variety grading for PCGS?Does anybody know? >>

John's still there. Don't know who does it for PCGS.

MrEureka · April 13, 2008 10:04PM

It seems to me that this is a policy that a TPG would not want to put in print. Even the suggestion that they could make a mistake like that makes them look bad.

chiefbob · April 13, 2008 10:10PM

<< The contrarian perspective might be that the time the coin made the plastic was the grading mistake, not all the previous ones. All of them will make a mistake now and then. Consistency might not be all there all the time, but if consistency is that far off the mark, then independent grading is highly suspect. I do not think it is suspect, even if I too have a probem with the occasional BB. One recent one particularly irks me. Came back as altered surfaces. Yes, the die's surfaces were altered (not the coin's) and that is the whole point of that variety's value. I jave another one in grading where the fields on the reverse die were ground down and have a weird raised look on the cloin around all of the devices. If it comes back in bag, I will blow a gasket. >>

John,

Please clarify. Did you submit the coin as a variety attribution or not mention it? If you did, is it a situation where the grader saw the "altered surfaces", BB's it and it's not passed on to the variety person? Who did you submit to? Just trying to understand the process.

dorkkarl · April 13, 2008 10:13PM

stop whining. grading is subjective.

K S

BAJJERFAN · April 13, 2008 10:21PM

<< stop whining. grading is subjective.

K S >>

actually i'd bet that 95% or more of it is no brainer objective.

joeyuk · April 13, 2008 10:23PM

Thats right grading is subjective. Just an opinion like anyone elses. Ideally there would be
more consistency. Too many people , myself at times , take it as gospel.

IGWT · April 13, 2008 10:24PM

Content moved to another thread.

dorkkarl · April 13, 2008 10:25PM

<< 

<< stop whining. grading is subjective.

K S >>

actually i'd bet that 95% or more of it is no brainer objective. >>

you would lose your bet. by def'n, grading is subjective.

K S

BAJJERFAN · April 13, 2008 11:17PM

<< 

<< 

<< stop whining. grading is subjective.

K S >>

actually i'd bet that 95% or more of it is no brainer objective. >>

you would lose your bet. by def'n, grading is subjective.

K S >>

let me rephrase then; 95% or more of the coins submitted are probably no brainer coins and if submitted 100 times would come back the same grade 95 or more times. thats objective IMO subjective would be a submitted coin being 62 64 63 65 62 64 63 63 65 62 etc and so on and so forth.

dorkkarl · April 13, 2008 11:20PM

<< let me rephrase then; 95% or more of the coins submitted are probably no brainer coins and if submitted 100 times would come back the same grade 95 or more times. thats objective IMO subjective would be a submitted coin being 62 64 63 65 62 64 63 63 65 62 etc and so on and so forth. >>

no, that would be called "statistical". but statistics says nothing about "objectivity". a computer is objective, but the program it is running is subjective, having been written by a subjective human being.

btw, i would guess the percentage is more like 80%.

K S

ModernDollarNut · April 14, 2008 12:37AM

Speaking for Ikes, I would guess 90% overall. I've submitted around 500 Ikes and resubmited around 20 of 50 that I think were undergraded with half getting bumped a grade.

With Ikes, 63-64-65 range can be challenging. Grading requires rapid synthesis of all of a coins attributes: consistent grading requires the same weighting of attributes and this will vary from one grader to another.

Here's an Ike with great luster and borderline distracting hits: 63? 64? Which is more important to this particular grader?

Here's another that has little luster, is remarkably hit-free, but Ike's hair is only borderline detailed: 64? 65?

Here's an Ike with some heavy planchet chatter on the Obverse - or are some of those hits? The surface is dull, the chatter/hits are not obtrusive and there are no major dings: 64? 65?

Here's an Ike that has heavy and not unattractive toning: could that toning be hiding grade-limiting hits? Down a grade?

Here's an Ike with brilliant proof-like surfaces on which every little tic stands out on rotation: down a grade?

Subjectivity = Variability. There will always be that 10% of coins that will get a different grade upon resubmission, at least with Ikes. Rob

Coxe · April 14, 2008 1:14AM

<< Coxe's comment about varieties made me think of another question.We all know that John Roberts with Anacs(if he's still there)is a variety specialist.Who does the variety grading for PCGS?Does anybody know? >>

Yes, John is still the attribyo with ANACS.

Mike Faraone, previously a grader/attributor with ANACS, joined PCGS to get their attribution service going and remains their attributor.

Both are great guys and very competent attributors. Sure wish PCGS would expand that list of VAMs they do. There are some great Hit List 40 varieties they could do that are not difficult to do.

RYK · April 14, 2008 1:21AM

What do you think?

I think that the process of grading and certifying coins needs a refreshing new approach. I do not have the answer, but with all of the challenges and issues the incumbent TPGs face, I think that there must be a better way, one that is substantially different from how things have been done for the past 22 years.

coolest · April 14, 2008 1:35AM

Are you a Collectors club member? It is my feeling that collectors club members are graded to a tighter standard than if you were submitting as a dealer. I could be completely wrong but it seems like it. Do the graders know whose coins they are grading?

RYK · April 14, 2008 1:48AM

<< Are you a Collectors club member? It is my feeling that collectors club members are graded to a tighter standard than if you were submitting as a dealer. I could be completely wrong but it seems like it. Do the graders know whose coins they are grading? >>

David Hall has addressed this issue in the past, and this is apparently not the case.

vplite · April 14, 2008 2:09AM

<< Okay, I think the grading companies should give a refund to submitters who can document that they got their specific toned coins back in BBs and then see the f*&^%* in one of the big two holders sometime later! Some of us submit multiple times 'cause we're sure its NT but finally give up after $150 in lost submission fees...

What do you think?

Doug >>

Not unreasonable, but good luck.

dorkkarl · April 14, 2008 2:30AM

<< I think that the process of grading and certifying coins needs a refreshing new approach. I do not have the answer, but with all of the challenges and issues the incumbent TPGs face, I think that there must be a better way, one that is substantially different from how things have been done for the past 22 years. >>

no slabs = no slab problems.

i don't think slabing co's caused the current plethora of problems, collector-wannabes did.

K S

BlindedByEgo · April 14, 2008 2:45AM

<< stop whining. grading is subjective.

K S >>

Stop whining? Why have a message board???!!!

ccrdragon · April 14, 2008 3:03AM

stop whining?!?!? this place would turn into another sleepy hollow like ATS....

Doogy · April 14, 2008 3:18AM

a numismatic shell game. If the desired grade isn't under the shell when they lift it up, slap another $20 on the table and try your luck again. that is the business model, and it is not likely to change.

GRANDAM · April 14, 2008 3:29AM

<< Yes, the die's surfaces were altered (not the coin's) and that is the whole point of that variety's value. >>

I have found that when you submit anything that is out of the ordinary it helps to include a note to bring it to the attention of the receiving people or the graders. Whoever needs to know about it.

GrandAm

dorkkarl · April 14, 2008 4:09AM

<< Stop whining? Why have a message board???!!! >>

why, to slam pla$tic, of course! BWUAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

K S

RotatedRainbows · April 14, 2008 4:17AM

The grading companies would have went out of business years ago without all the resubmissions, they realize that there are only so many coins to grade so BB's leading to resubmissions is a vital part of their revenue stream.

Coxe · April 14, 2008 4:49AM

<< The grading companies would have went out of business years ago without all the resubmissions, they realize that there are only so many coins to grade so BB's leading to resubmissions is a vital part of their revenue stream. >>

I suspect the resubmissions of classic coins amounts to a minor part of the bottom line. The whole reason they capitulated and began grading bullion and coins dated after 1964 was they needed to in order to remain operationally viable. They pay the light bill on bulk submissions of SAEs and similar nowadays.

uofa1285 · April 14, 2008 5:11AM

Great discussion overall, thanks. I am a member of CC and wondered about the Dealer vs. Collector submission prejudice possibility. However, I have no way of knowing.

Russ talks about "set up" coins in his submissions which indicates he believes the graders can be manipulated in some manner...I know he knows more than I do on submissions and he is roundly recognized as an expert in many areas here so...

The comparisons made here with grading point inconsistencies and variety/surface altering are valid and all point to the subjectivity that we can never take away as long as people are involved. But that's cool. I feel better now being reminded it's just not my little toning corner (NT v. AT) of the hobby that varies and is frustrating - no matter what the level of expert.

Best,

Doug

(edited for sp)

Elcontador · April 14, 2008 6:19AM

I agree with Coxe in that if if a Seated $ (or any other coin for that matter) came back 10 times in a 4 holder and came back in a 5 holder on the 11th try, said 11th try (where the coin got into a 5 holder) is probably a mistake.

PawPaul · April 14, 2008 8:27AM

it is no secret certain coins get submitted over and over and over .............

question is - would you want to own a coin that it took 9 tries to get holder-ed/graded ?

as for getting a refund on B.B's that end up holder-ed ......... that's a great idea ; bring it up to Customer Service and get right back to us with their plans........

Nic · April 14, 2008 8:33AM

Everyone should grade each coin themself. If not, you accept the alternative.

Zen

BAJJERFAN · April 14, 2008 9:44AM

<< Everyone should grade each coin themself. If not, you accept the alternative.

Zen >>

Thats all well and good that you can, but in the grand scheme of the maketplace your opinion of a coin's grade don't mean much to the average Joe Buyer.

yellowjacket · April 14, 2008 10:10AM

Shoot, I submitted a 1940 Merc to PCGS and it BB for questionable surfaces. I just put it back in my Whitman and forgot about it. Later I went to the Whitman to submit some others. Wouldn't you know I forgot I had submitted the 1940 and REsubmitted it! It came back 67FB. Whoops!

If you feel strongly about a coin, I guess you keep paying the fees and keep resubmitting it. Don't bail too early or you run into the situation in the OP.

Garrow

chiefbob · April 14, 2008 10:29AM

<< Shoot, I submitted a 1940 Merc to PCGS and it BB for questionable surfaces. I just put it back in my Whitman and forgot about it. Later I went to the Whitman to submit some others. Wouldn't you know I forgot I had submitted the 1940 and REsubmitted it! It came back 67FB. Whoops!

If you feel strongly about a coin, I guess you keep paying the fees and keep resubmitting it. Don't bail too early or you run into the situation in the OP.

Garrow >>

Congrats! What I don't understand, though, is if the first grader thinks there's a questionable surface, doesn't the final grader or QC grader also review it? Or are the TPGs so busy with submissions that the first opinion sails through and is rubber-stamped in an effort to meet the tier processing times? Or, the conspiracy part of me thinks that they love resubmissions as they are the "fees that keep on giving".

BAJJERFAN · April 14, 2008 10:34AM

<< 

<< Shoot, I submitted a 1940 Merc to PCGS and it BB for questionable surfaces. I just put it back in my Whitman and forgot about it. Later I went to the Whitman to submit some others. Wouldn't you know I forgot I had submitted the 1940 and REsubmitted it! It came back 67FB. Whoops!

If you feel strongly about a coin, I guess you keep paying the fees and keep resubmitting it. Don't bail too early or you run into the situation in the OP.

Garrow >>

Congrats! What I don't understand, though, is if the first grader thinks there's a questionable surface, doesn't the final grader or QC grader also review it? Or are the TPGs so busy with submissions that the first opinion sails through and is rubber-stamped in an effort to meet the tier processing times? Or, the conspiracy part of me thinks that they love resubmissions as they are the "fees that keep on giving". >>

It would be nice to know if BB'd coins are seen by ALL graders and a finalizer just like the coins that pass supposedly are.

yellowjacket · April 14, 2008 10:34AM

Now those are questions that PCGS would have to answer. I sure don't have ANY idea. I do know that my Merc is a beauty of a coin and didn't understand the BB result the first time around.

Garrow

Edit to add: I'm sure that PCGS didn't know it was a resubmisssion since I didn't know it myself!

BAJJERFAN · April 14, 2008 10:51AM

<< Now those are questions that PCGS would have to answer. I sure don't have ANY idea. I do know that my Merc is a beauty of a coin and didn't understand the BB result the first time around.

Garrow

Edit to add: I'm sure that PCGS didn't know it was a resubmisssion since I didn't know it myself! >>

I doubt that the PCGS graders retain much if any memory of the fairly common coins, but I'm sure they remember the really nice or unusual ones. I wonder if the graders of your average submission are assigned in a random fashion or by some other means to reduce grader bias.

Has this frustrating grading topic been discussed before?

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