<< <i>Bidders generally don't want sellers adding their own unusual terms to the sale because they prefer to see the seller default to the "typical" selling policies. >>
Where can I find a list of "unusual" and "typical" terms of sale? I'd hate to be pissing off bidders by not following the expected policy here...
Seriously, though- I believe it is typical for auction houses to reserve the right to withdraw a lot at any time, so it doesn't appear to be an unusual term.
When it comes to eBay auction listings, I don't think it's necessary to spell out terms which, unlike shipping charges or payment options, do not require anything of the bidder, but then that's just me.
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
The ebay seller apologists are out in force I see. So are the smallminded
Sniping isn't just about "trying to steal a coin for cheap". There are different reasons I use sniping....before the change, I used it so my ID wasn't seen....when I was first doing coins, before joining this board, there were some other IDs that seemed to follow me and bid up some items I was bidding on (hey. I did it to them after that as well ).
There's also the nicety of having bid groups. I think ebay now does that as well, but I got used to the one on esnipe. That way, I can stay within budget or not buy dupes (which I have done before in the same period of bidding because the auctions end close together).
And, of course, there is the hope to avoid a bidding way. However, I am sure many have noticed that good auctions, from good sellers, with good items that are wanted have sniping wars and the items don't go for a low amount.
Ebay allows ending the item...but, while they can't prove it, most times, it is still against the rules to list it on ebay and take outside offers from that listing. Many people list here and say "if you want something I have on ebay, and we agree on the price, let me know and I will end the listing". Sure, it can be done. If there are no bids, I am fine with that. If there are bids, then you just aren't worthy of respect, imho. If you can't handle what it may sell for, go to a local dealer and sell it. Or, set a reserve. Or, better yet, set it at the price you are willing to take and see if it goes above that.
Sorry, but from the auctions I saw that caused me to post this thread, you ebay seller apologists are all wet and just a bunch of whiners
eBay should have an option that the BUYER will pay the final value fee of the auction to gaurantee the auction will not be pulled. Would you like to see that happen or become available?
<< <i>eBay should have an option that the BUYER will pay the final value fee of the auction to gaurantee the auction will not be pulled. Would you like to see that happen or become available? >>
No. I would rather see wussy sellers who don't have the balls to set the price they will accept, or let the true auction run, NOT sell on ebay and not whine about not getting their price.
The increase in coins has been great but it brings too many wanna-bes and flippers in who think only in terms of the next $ They don't study the market, they don't study the coin, they don't know the environment...but they sure can post to ebay and then whine about their auctions or pictures or descriptions.
If the fees are that bad, start their own site so they can then whine about lack of traffic.......you pay in one way or another.
Bochiman, Seems the whining from smallminded people is coming from the buyers who think it should be against the rules for sellers to make money. Read your original post. It's whning. You need to look in the mirror more often. --Jerry
re:buyers who think it should be against the rules for sellers to make money.
Any thoughts on ebay requiring one to sell a certain number of items before being allowed to buy? I realize this sounds a bit absurd but I've had recurring thoughts for some time that many of the buyers need to realize that selling on ebay is by no means a guaranteed path to riches with all the fees that the seller pays. What better way to find this out than by trying to sell a few items?
If a picture wasn't going very well I'd put a puppy dog in it, always a mongrel, you know, never one of the full bred puppies. And then I'd put a bandage on its foot... I liked it when I did it, but now I'm sick of it.
Norman Rockwell
<< <i>re:buyers who think it should be against the rules for sellers to make money. Any thoughts on ebay requiring one to sell a certain number of items before being allowed to buy? I realize this sounds a bit absurd but I've had recurring thoughts for some time that many of the buyers need to realize that selling on ebay is by no means a guaranteed path to riches with all the fees that the seller pays. What better way to find this out than by trying to sell a few items? >>
Nah. Buyers are actually much more important to ebay than sellers and ebay knows it. Thats why they abuse sellers like they do and cater to buyers. I don't really disagree with the philosophy becasue as a seller, I NEED those buyers. Sellers need to make money so they will put up with abuse. Buyers will go somewhere else if abused and ebay has already lost some buyers because of unscrupulous sellers. This debate is really academic whining but I thought I'd jump in and stand up for sellers. --Jerry
<< <i>This debate is really academic whining but I thought I'd jump in and stand up for sellers. --Jerry >>
Why is it that some people have to dismiss anything they don't agree with as "whining"? Can't someone disagree without being insulting and condescending?
That would severely reduce the number of potential buyers and in so doing, screw sellers into getting less money for their items.
I can see where this could easily happen.ebay is definitely a more favorable venue for the buyer than the seller.
If a picture wasn't going very well I'd put a puppy dog in it, always a mongrel, you know, never one of the full bred puppies. And then I'd put a bandage on its foot... I liked it when I did it, but now I'm sick of it.
Norman Rockwell
<< <i>This debate is really academic whining but I thought I'd jump in and stand up for sellers. --Jerry >>
Why is it that some people have to dismiss anything they don't agree with as "whining"? Can't someone disagree without being insulting and condescending? >>
I was referreing to the post above mine implying that sellers are whining. I wanted to point out that I'm just responding to buyer whining. If you want to see name calling I'll post the PMs that Bochiman sends me.
Unfortunately I am a Libra and can see both sides of the story. Easy enough....sellers want maximum profits and buyers want the least price. This conflict of interests creates the market. Daang, I wish I was a Leo!
I guess you've all forgotten what it was like to buy coins mail order years past. You'd mark your order, send your money and get AT LEAST half your money back along with the coins you ordered that had not already been sold.
I don't necessarily think it is greed that makes a seller end an auction early and sell to a local person for the same price. Actually it is great business sense. Why pay ebaY fees when you don't have to.
I also don't understand people thinking these auctions placed by other people were placed there just for them. Does everyone here take it personally when a coin is sold? You had not even bid on it. You were watching it. You probably watch hundreds of coins that you never buy. Should a seller not close an auction to sell for more money elsewhere just because someone MAY be watching the item? Watchers are a penny per 12 dozen and they don't usually buy anything. You can put something on your watch list, but that doesn't make the item or the auction yours alone.
I can't believe the number of people who get upset over something like this. It's a nice day, go outside for awhile. (That's where I'm headed right now)
Jonathan
I have been a collector for over mumbly-five years. I learn something new every day.
<< <i>I guess you've all forgotten what it was like to buy coins mail order years past. You'd mark your order, send your money and get AT LEAST half your money back along with the coins you ordered that had not already been sold. >>
This must have been during the pre-telephone era. Before ordering a coin by mail, I used to call to make sure the coins were still available and to get a more detailed description of the coins that I was interested in.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I guess you've all forgotten what it was like to buy coins mail order years past. You'd mark your order, send your money and get AT LEAST half your money back along with the coins you ordered that had not already been sold. >>
This must have been during the pre-telephone era. Before ordering a coin by mail, I used to call to make sure the coins were still available and to get a more detailed description of the coins that I was interested in. >>
That is a great plan. However, several of the places I dealt with in the '80's were mail order only. No number to call. I got some great coins, pre-TPG and some mediocre coins. But they would always take them back if I didn't want them.
Jonathan
I have been a collector for over mumbly-five years. I learn something new every day.
<< <i>We got tired of having people waiting to the last few secons and use sniping software... so we sometimes end early to defeat it... >>
So you think it is OK to break Ebay rules to suit you own purposes? Use a reserve if you have an absolute minimum.
You are just shooting yourself in the foot with your stupid attempts to "defeat" snipers. If the coin is described properly with good images, you will get fair value 99% of the time. Sniping software allows people to bid on items and not sit by the computer, so you end up getting better results.
<< <i>The ebay seller apologists are out in force I see. So are the smallminded
Sniping isn't just about "trying to steal a coin for cheap". There are different reasons I use sniping....before the change, I used it so my ID wasn't seen....when I was first doing coins, before joining this board, there were some other IDs that seemed to follow me and bid up some items I was bidding on (hey. I did it to them after that as well ).
There's also the nicety of having bid groups. I think ebay now does that as well, but I got used to the one on esnipe. That way, I can stay within budget or not buy dupes (which I have done before in the same period of bidding because the auctions end close together).
And, of course, there is the hope to avoid a bidding way. However, I am sure many have noticed that good auctions, from good sellers, with good items that are wanted have sniping wars and the items don't go for a low amount.
Ebay allows ending the item...but, while they can't prove it, most times, it is still against the rules to list it on ebay and take outside offers from that listing. Many people list here and say "if you want something I have on ebay, and we agree on the price, let me know and I will end the listing". Sure, it can be done. If there are no bids, I am fine with that. If there are bids, then you just aren't worthy of respect, imho. If you can't handle what it may sell for, go to a local dealer and sell it. Or, set a reserve. Or, better yet, set it at the price you are willing to take and see if it goes above that.
Sorry, but from the auctions I saw that caused me to post this thread, you ebay seller apologists are all wet and just a bunch of whiners >>
smartest and most creadable comments in this entire post
I SNIPE ON COINS i REALLY WANT AND TO AVOID A BIDDING WAR ;most times my snipe amount is well over what I win the lot for .....
in fact , sniping makes the seller more money , not less .
And yes , most sellers who end an auction early that has bids are doing so because they got a strong enough offer under the table and cancelling the auction enables them to sell and not pay additional ebay fee's . happens all the time
Are you telling me you are so perfect, you never make mistakes? >>
error in listing is a lame reason ........ and if that were the case - can be edited or cancelled and then fixed and then new auction put up in a few short miniutes........ yet most "error" cancellations are never seen again ; because they get sold under the table to avoid fee's
And these same folks claiming that sniping gets them great deals as a buyer.
I believe the former case is only an occasional thing.
I believe it tends to be the latter, as early bids can generate bid-excitement. And a bunch of excited bidders warring against each other is what moves the price up in my opinion. Sniping is a way for a buyer to avoid this. HOW does that make the seller more money?
It's a disingenuous argument in my opinion.
And I usually bid late, as I want to avoid agitating other, less experienced bidders.
<< <i>I SNIPE ON COINS i REALLY WANT AND TO AVOID A BIDDING WAR ;most times my snipe amount is well over what I win the lot for .....
in fact , sniping makes the seller more money , not less .
And yes , most sellers who end an auction early that has bids are doing so because they got a strong enough offer under the table and cancelling the auction enables them to sell and not pay additional ebay fee's . happens all the time >>
In the case in the previous post, about ending early because of snipers, I think it is more likely that someone is using that as an excuse to try to force higher bids earlier. They are scared they won't get what they want for a coin (hence one person suggesting they should use a reserve) and so they use being against sniping as an excuse to pull the product.
"....And I usually bid late, as I want to avoid agitating other, less experienced bidders. "
I would call this semi- sniping !
If i must have the coin , i would rather get into a bidding war in the last few seconds with someone else who" must have it as well" ; rather then getting ego`s involved in the long 7 day auction with " I got the high bid now " syndrome or , " I know this jerk will bid higher and I don't really want the coin at this high level-but I will make him pay far higher then he wanted to " trick .
When I place a snipe bid - It`s not to rip a coin - it`s to "win the coin at any cost mentality" ; and I`m telling you -my snipe bid max amounts are way higher then what you'd be willing to pay. But if nobody is sniping against me , then I get the coin at the level that thousand's of potential buyers bid it up to.
I read it dozens of times - get off your cheap butt and pay a few measly bucks and set a min. reserve on your coin if your worried about it getting ripped - how much simpler can that be to protect yourself ??
This particular issue has been discussed over and over here.
There is no enforcement by eBay, in the situation of forcing a seller to sell an item. Call customer service to complain, and they will tell you this right away. There is a train of thought, from the seller's standpoint, that they can absolutely choose whether to sell an item, or, even to be selective on who they sell an item to. This attitude is not likely to win friends and influence people, in the long run. As has been correctly pointed out, if you are concerned about losing your shirt on something, start the bidding at an appropriate level, or set a reserve. Or, at a minimum, place a notice in the listings that says that items are subject to prior sale, or blah blah blah. Anything that puts the bidder on notice would be a nice compromise, IMHO.
Glad to see not too much babble about a contract here. It is practically not the case...
As a seller, I would never remove an item that has bids on it, unless I had lost it, the dog chewed it up, or some other valid reason. But, as a realist, I can understand why a seller would not want something which was (on its face) valuable going for a significant loss. Such a mamby-pamby (or girlie man, if you prefer) should not be surprised if a winning bidder, deprived of an item, leaves negative feedback. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.
John
John C. Knudsen, LM ANA 2342, LM CSNS 337 SFC, US Army (Ret.) 1974-1994
And these same folks claiming that sniping gets them great deals as a buyer.
I believe the former case is only an occasional thing.
I believe it tends to be the latter, as early bids can generate bid-excitement. And a bunch of excited bidders warring against each other is what moves the price up in my opinion. Sniping is a way for a buyer to avoid this. HOW does that make the seller more money?
It's a disingenuous argument in my opinion.
And I usually bid late, as I want to avoid agitating other, less experienced bidders. >>
However, if you eliminate sniping (such as auto-extending auctions with last minute bids), you will have less bidders, and lower prices overall, becuase the snipers will not participate.
What's really funny is that the wussy sellers that would pull an auction because they are scared snipers won't bid it up and it will sell too cheap are really hurting themselves if they do a lot of auctions....
Think about it....someone gets a good deal (let's say a coin 20-40% below what it 'should' go for. People are likely to remember that and go back to that seller's auctions a lot....a "favorite" seller. Now, they will likely see more action on their auctions. Chalk it up to an advertising cost.
Anyway.....I agree with a lot that was said since the thread was, for whatever reason, resurrected.
There is a chance if the coins were slabbed the auctions were canceled by ebay. In the past couple of weeks ebay has cancelled auctions for not having full pictures of the reverse slab. This has been the rule, but sellers have been able to slide until now.
<< <i>It is totally obnoxious and greed oriented IMO. >>
And of course there is nothing greedy about withholding bids until the last second hoping to rip a sellers coin for dirt. The auction houses are oriented toward the seller with bids exceeding the reserve long before the floor auction takes place. Ebay has always favored the buyer hence being the only venue where withholding bids until the last second(sniping) is not only allowed but encouraged. As long as ebay encourages this practice any seller in his right mind will do anything necessary to protect himself from the bottom feeders. A seller can't do very well with a reserve bid on ebay even though this works quite well when consigning coins to major auctions.
Not only is the seller discouraged from listing a reserve by an exhorbitant fee that doesn't exist in a major auction but also by the self admitted declaration by many on this forum that they will not bid on any reserve auctions. It seems if there is no chance to hurt and damage the seller by winning his coins for well below market value then they don't want to play. Paying fair market value for a coin just isn't any fun. I have pulled many an auction when after 6 days with just over 12 hrs to go there are 1 or 2 bids for a total of $117.33 on a $2000 coin. At this time I have to decide per ebay rules to end it or sweat 12 hours hoping more than one bidder will at least bid somewhere near market price. Of course any attempt at fee avoidance brings self righteous indignation from the ebay "posse" who are not at all concerned at their failed attempt to rip a sellers coins--- no --- their only interest is in protecting their beloved ebay whom at all other times they refer to as "sleazebay", "fleabay" and a few other derogatory terms. I will continue to protect my assets in using the very few options left. Flame away! Dave W
The sorrow of poor quality lingers on long after the joy of low prices has been forgotten. David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com
<< <i>Of course there is nothing greedy about withholding bids until the last second hoping to rip a sellers coin for dirt. The auction houses are oriented toward the seller with bids exceeding the reserve long before the floor auction takes place. Ebay has always favored the buyer hence being the only venue where withholding bids until the last second(sniping) is not only allowed but encouraged. As long as ebay encourages this practice any seller in his right mind will do anything necessary to protect himself from the bottom feeders. A seller can't do very well with a reserve bid on ebay even though this works quite well when consigning coins to major auctions. >>
I'm sorry, but that's the way their system works. Don't like it? Don't list there. If you prefer how other venues handle this, then list there. Put your business and your money where your mouth is.
Blaming buyers for not being "altruistic" enough to sellers so as to change bidding strategies which either result in (a) higher prices paid or (b) increased likelihood of losing the auction is just silly. Expecting them to harm their chances of winning an item or expecting them to voluntarily pay more by expecting them to tip their hand early is also silly...and contrary to human nature.
I've bought and sold there, and frankly I'm sick of some sellers acting all the slime is on the buying side and some buyers acting like all the slime is on the seller side.
Some of you like me and some don't. But here is my take on this issue.
You can do whatever you want under the rules.
#1 Why does ebay let a seller end a auction in the first place?
#2 Why can't a seller have any recourse to change his or her mind?
#3 I have won multi auctions and the seller refused to sell to me for whatever reason. This is after the auction was over.
Ebay has a policy that alot of you don't know of. A seller doesn't have to sell you anything if they don't want. Yea you can neg them, block them, and file a claim in court. But after it's all over the seller will win.
That's why ebay is a auction house and you as a seller or buyer must do all of the transactions yourself to trade the money for the item or the item for the money. In the end it might work out or it might not.
<< <i>Quite a few time when I see something I really want I will try to offer a fair price to the seller instead of caught in the sniping war. >>
There is nothing wrong with asking the seller to add a BIN to his auction. I did that recently with an 1855 "prooflike" large cent being discussed here and almost got a "you suck" from Joe Lewis. When I plan to snipe an auction I sometimes bid it up to perhaps 50 to 75% of my expected snipe to make sure it doesn't end early and perhaps shake out a few weak bidders.
Don't ask me if I've ever bought a coin off ebay that might have been listed there in the past but as I said above, sellers are not shy at all about cutting ebay out of the transaction after the way they've been treated. --Jerry >>
<< <i>Of course there is nothing greedy about withholding bids until the last second hoping to rip a sellers coin for dirt. The auction houses are oriented toward the seller with bids exceeding the reserve long before the floor auction takes place. Ebay has always favored the buyer hence being the only venue where withholding bids until the last second(sniping) is not only allowed but encouraged. As long as ebay encourages this practice any seller in his right mind will do anything necessary to protect himself from the bottom feeders. A seller can't do very well with a reserve bid on ebay even though this works quite well when consigning coins to major auctions. >>
I'm sorry, but that's the way their system works. Don't like it? Don't list there. If you prefer how other venues handle this, then list there. Put your business and your money where your mouth is.
Blaming buyers for not being "altruistic" enough to sellers so as to change bidding strategies which either result in (a) higher prices paid or (b) increased likelihood of losing the auction is just silly. Expecting them to harm their chances of winning an item or expecting them to voluntarily pay more by expecting them to tip their hand early is also silly...and contrary to human nature.
I've bought and sold there, and frankly I'm sick of some sellers acting all the slime is on the buying side and some buyers acting like all the slime is on the seller side. >>
I am not blaming buyers for anything nor expecting them to behave in any any manner I prescribe. I expect everyone to act in a manner that enhances their own self interest. This would include both buyer and seller. The op seems to think otherwise as do several other posters. The opening volley was aimed at sellers who deem it in their self interest to end an auction early for whatever reason. ---" a philosophy that that puts other peoples interest ahead of ones own can only exist in a society of cannibals"--- Ayn Rand Dave W
The sorrow of poor quality lingers on long after the joy of low prices has been forgotten David J Weygant Rare Copins website: www.djwcoin.com
<< <i>I am not blaming buyers for anything nor expecting them to behave in any any manner I prescribe. I expect everyone to act in a manner that enhances their own self interest. This would include both buyer and seller. The op seems to think otherwise as do several other posters. The opening volley was aimed at sellers who deem it in their self interest to end an auction early for whatever reason. >>
That I agree with.
As long as the system is what it is, it's not realistic to expect behavior to change. The system as it is punishes bidders who don't snipe. Both buyer and seller want the "best price" for the item, and as such I wouldn't expect either side to do something which undermines their chances of getting best price. What I didn't like was the implication that people who snipe are necessarily trying to "rip" a coin for pennies on the dollar. Many snipes are placed with very strong money, and it only takes two such people to get a really good price for the coin (from the seller's POV).
Unfortunately, every potential solution I've heard to discourage the wait-and-snipe behavior on eBay causes other problems for bidders and sellers alike that could even result in LOWER prices for the seller. So ultimately, one has to think about which items are appropriate to list there and which would be best offered elsewhere. Personally I don't think someone should list for 99 cents and no reserve if they aren't willing to assume some risk, but just as the "rules" encourage sniping, the "rules" do allow cancellation up to 12 hours before the close.
Seems that as long as everyone follows and abides by eBay's rules no one should ostracize (sp?) the other.
eBay sellers have the (unconditional?) right to end auctions with more than 12 hours to go. With less than 12 hours to go, only if no bids (OR if bids and reserve not met???).
If they choose to exercise their right and you don't like it (which I personally ABHOR) don't bid with them anymore. An initially believed and professed to be a permanent remedy that will quickly turn into a temporary one if you perceive they have a "rip" next time around.
<< <i>We got tired of having people waiting to the last few secons and use sniping software... so we sometimes end early to defeat it... >>
From a sellers standpoint a snipe is only good if you have two or more snipers. Snipers can sometimes be determined by the number of watchers. Otherwise, it just turns into a giveaway! >>
Lee, I could agree with you a little. And of course 2 or more snipers makes for some crazy auction endings. A good sniper does not need to watch the auction. The watch is on their software and does not alert the seller that they even have any interest. Kind of like a lion stalking its prey. Alerting it is not part of the plan.
Comments
<< <i>Bidders generally don't want sellers adding their own unusual terms to the sale because they prefer to see the seller default to the "typical" selling policies. >>
Where can I find a list of "unusual" and "typical" terms of sale? I'd hate to be pissing off bidders by not following the expected policy here...
Seriously, though- I believe it is typical for auction houses to reserve the right to withdraw a lot at any time, so it doesn't appear to be an unusual term.
When it comes to eBay auction listings, I don't think it's necessary to spell out terms which, unlike shipping charges or payment options, do not require anything of the bidder, but then that's just me.
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
Sniping isn't just about "trying to steal a coin for cheap". There are different reasons I use sniping....before the change, I used it so my ID wasn't seen....when I was first doing coins, before joining this board, there were some other IDs that seemed to follow me and bid up some items I was bidding on (hey. I did it to them after that as well
There's also the nicety of having bid groups. I think ebay now does that as well, but I got used to the one on esnipe. That way, I can stay within budget or not buy dupes (which I have done before
And, of course, there is the hope to avoid a bidding way. However, I am sure many have noticed that good auctions, from good sellers, with good items that are wanted have sniping wars and the items don't go for a low amount.
Ebay allows ending the item...but, while they can't prove it, most times, it is still against the rules to list it on ebay and take outside offers from that listing. Many people list here and say "if you want something I have on ebay, and we agree on the price, let me know and I will end the listing". Sure, it can be done. If there are no bids, I am fine with that. If there are bids, then you just aren't worthy of respect, imho.
If you can't handle what it may sell for, go to a local dealer and sell it. Or, set a reserve. Or, better yet, set it at the price you are willing to take and see if it goes above that.
Sorry, but from the auctions I saw that caused me to post this thread, you ebay seller apologists are all wet and just a bunch of whiners
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150225501207&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT&ih=005
<< <i>There was a board member that did that on several auctions last night
If we're thinking of the same guy, he didn't remove them. eBay removed them for him.
<< <i>I simply don't think sniping software leads to fair auctions. >>
I LOVE snipers. I've lost count of the number of times I've gotten amazing money for coins because of them. Snipers rock!
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>eBay should have an option that the BUYER will pay the final value fee of the auction to gaurantee the auction will not be pulled. Would you like to see that happen or become available? >>
No. I would rather see wussy sellers who don't have the balls to set the price they will accept, or let the true auction run, NOT sell on ebay and not whine about not getting their price.
The increase in coins has been great but it brings too many wanna-bes and flippers in who think only in terms of the next $
They don't study the market, they don't study the coin, they don't know the environment...but they sure can post to ebay and then whine about their auctions or pictures or descriptions.
If the fees are that bad, start their own site so they can then whine about lack of traffic.......you pay in one way or another.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Seems the whining from smallminded people is coming from the buyers who think it should be against the rules for sellers to make money. Read your original post. It's whning. You need to look in the mirror more often. --Jerry
Any thoughts on ebay requiring one to sell a certain number of items before being allowed to buy? I realize this sounds a bit absurd but I've had recurring thoughts for some time that many of the buyers need to realize that selling on ebay is by no means a guaranteed path to riches with all the fees that the seller pays. What better way to find this out than by trying to sell a few items?
If a picture wasn't going very well I'd put a puppy dog in it, always a mongrel, you know, never one of the full bred puppies. And then I'd put a bandage on its foot... I liked it when I did it, but now I'm sick of it.
Norman Rockwell
<< <i>Any thoughts on ebay requiring one to sell a certain number of items before being allowed to buy? >>
That would severely reduce the number of potential buyers and in so doing, screw sellers into getting less money for their items.
<< <i>re:buyers who think it should be against the rules for sellers to make money. Any thoughts on ebay requiring one to sell a certain number of items before being allowed to buy? I realize this sounds a bit absurd but I've had recurring thoughts for some time that many of the buyers need to realize that selling on ebay is by no means a guaranteed path to riches with all the fees that the seller pays. What better way to find this out than by trying to sell a few items? >>
Nah. Buyers are actually much more important to ebay than sellers and ebay knows it. Thats why they abuse sellers like they do and cater to buyers. I don't really disagree with the philosophy becasue as a seller, I NEED those buyers. Sellers need to make money so they will put up with abuse. Buyers will go somewhere else if abused and ebay has already lost some buyers because of unscrupulous sellers. This debate is really academic whining but I thought I'd jump in and stand up for sellers. --Jerry
<< <i>This debate is really academic whining but I thought I'd jump in and stand up for sellers. --Jerry >>
Why is it that some people have to dismiss anything they don't agree with as "whining"? Can't someone disagree without being insulting and condescending?
I can see where this could easily happen.ebay is definitely a more favorable venue for the buyer than the seller.
If a picture wasn't going very well I'd put a puppy dog in it, always a mongrel, you know, never one of the full bred puppies. And then I'd put a bandage on its foot... I liked it when I did it, but now I'm sick of it.
Norman Rockwell
<< <i>
<< <i>This debate is really academic whining but I thought I'd jump in and stand up for sellers. --Jerry >>
Why is it that some people have to dismiss anything they don't agree with as "whining"? Can't someone disagree without being insulting and condescending? >>
I was referreing to the post above mine implying that sellers are whining. I wanted to point out that I'm just responding to buyer whining. If you want to see name calling I'll post the PMs that Bochiman sends me.
--Jerry
You'd mark your order, send your money and get AT LEAST half your money back along with the coins you ordered that had not already been sold.
I don't necessarily think it is greed that makes a seller end an auction early and sell to a local person for the same price. Actually it is great business sense. Why pay ebaY fees when you don't have to.
I also don't understand people thinking these auctions placed by other people were placed there just for them. Does everyone here take it personally when a coin is sold? You had not even bid on it. You were watching it. You probably watch hundreds of coins that you never buy. Should a seller not close an auction to sell for more money elsewhere just because someone MAY be watching the item? Watchers are a penny per 12 dozen and they don't usually buy anything. You can put something on your watch list, but that doesn't make the item or the auction yours alone.
I can't believe the number of people who get upset over something like this. It's a nice day, go outside for awhile. (That's where I'm headed right now)
Jonathan
<< <i>I've got an auction ending in about 30 minutes on a coin priced below gray sheet bid and I'm thining about ending it early because of no bids. What to do?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150225501207&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT&ih=005 >>
You could always spam the boards.
<< <i>I guess you've all forgotten what it was like to buy coins mail order years past.
You'd mark your order, send your money and get AT LEAST half your money back along with the coins you ordered that had not already been sold. >>
This must have been during the pre-telephone era. Before ordering a coin by mail, I used to call to make sure the coins were still available and to get a more detailed description of the coins that I was interested in.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>I guess you've all forgotten what it was like to buy coins mail order years past.
You'd mark your order, send your money and get AT LEAST half your money back along with the coins you ordered that had not already been sold. >>
This must have been during the pre-telephone era. Before ordering a coin by mail, I used to call to make sure the coins were still available and to get a more detailed description of the coins that I was interested in. >>
That is a great plan. However, several of the places I dealt with in the '80's were mail order only. No number to call. I got some great coins, pre-TPG and some mediocre coins. But they would always take them back if I didn't want them.
Jonathan
<< <i>We got tired of having people waiting to the last few secons and use sniping software... so we sometimes end early to defeat it... >>
So you think it is OK to break Ebay rules to suit you own purposes? Use a reserve if you have an absolute minimum.
You are just shooting yourself in the foot with your stupid attempts to "defeat" snipers. If the coin is described properly with good images, you will get fair value 99% of the time. Sniping software allows people to bid on items and not sit by the computer, so you end up getting better results.
<< <i>
I LOVE snipers. I've lost count of the number of times I've gotten amazing money for coins because of them. Snipers rock!
Russ, NCNE >>
History of the US Constitution Coin Set
<< <i>We got tired of having people waiting to the last few secons and use sniping software... so we sometimes end early to defeat it... >>
so you got tired of selling for more money ???
<< <i>The ebay seller apologists are out in force I see. So are the smallminded
Sniping isn't just about "trying to steal a coin for cheap". There are different reasons I use sniping....before the change, I used it so my ID wasn't seen....when I was first doing coins, before joining this board, there were some other IDs that seemed to follow me and bid up some items I was bidding on (hey. I did it to them after that as well
There's also the nicety of having bid groups. I think ebay now does that as well, but I got used to the one on esnipe. That way, I can stay within budget or not buy dupes (which I have done before
And, of course, there is the hope to avoid a bidding way. However, I am sure many have noticed that good auctions, from good sellers, with good items that are wanted have sniping wars and the items don't go for a low amount.
Ebay allows ending the item...but, while they can't prove it, most times, it is still against the rules to list it on ebay and take outside offers from that listing. Many people list here and say "if you want something I have on ebay, and we agree on the price, let me know and I will end the listing". Sure, it can be done. If there are no bids, I am fine with that. If there are bids, then you just aren't worthy of respect, imho.
If you can't handle what it may sell for, go to a local dealer and sell it. Or, set a reserve. Or, better yet, set it at the price you are willing to take and see if it goes above that.
Sorry, but from the auctions I saw that caused me to post this thread, you ebay seller apologists are all wet and just a bunch of whiners
smartest and most creadable comments in this entire post
<< <i> An error in listing is no excuse. >>
Are you telling me you are so perfect, you never make mistakes?
in fact , sniping makes the seller more money , not less .
And yes , most sellers who end an auction early that has bids are doing so because they got a strong enough offer under the table and cancelling the auction enables them to sell and not pay additional ebay fee's . happens all the time
<< <i>
<< <i> An error in listing is no excuse. >>
Are you telling me you are so perfect, you never make mistakes? >>
error in listing is a lame reason ........ and if that were the case - can be edited or cancelled and then fixed and then new auction put up in a few short miniutes........ yet most "error" cancellations are never seen again ; because they get sold under the table to avoid fee's
Folks claiming snipers make sellers more money.
And these same folks claiming that sniping gets them great deals as a buyer.
I believe the former case is only an occasional thing.
I believe it tends to be the latter, as early bids can generate bid-excitement. And a bunch of excited bidders warring against each other is what moves the price up in my opinion. Sniping is a way for a buyer to avoid this. HOW does that make the seller more money?
It's a disingenuous argument in my opinion.
And I usually bid late, as I want to avoid agitating other, less experienced bidders.
<< <i>I SNIPE ON COINS i REALLY WANT AND TO AVOID A BIDDING WAR ;most times my snipe amount is well over what I win the lot for .....
in fact , sniping makes the seller more money , not less .
And yes , most sellers who end an auction early that has bids are doing so because they got a strong enough offer under the table and cancelling the auction enables them to sell and not pay additional ebay fee's . happens all the time >>
In the case in the previous post, about ending early because of snipers, I think it is more likely that someone is using that as an excuse to try to force higher bids earlier. They are scared they won't get what they want for a coin (hence one person suggesting they should use a reserve) and so they use being against sniping as an excuse to pull the product.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
breaking the rules?
Also to the poster that said he starts an auction at what he wants for an item yet ends early if it has no bids to defeat snipers has me lost.
The sniper(s) still have to bid at your beginning price.
Steve
I would call this semi- sniping !
If i must have the coin , i would rather get into a bidding war in the last few seconds with someone else who" must have it as well" ; rather then getting ego`s involved in the long 7 day auction with " I got the high bid now " syndrome or , " I know this jerk will bid higher and I don't really want the coin at this high level-but I will make him pay far higher then he wanted to " trick .
When I place a snipe bid - It`s not to rip a coin - it`s to "win the coin at any cost mentality" ; and I`m telling you -my snipe bid max amounts are way
higher then what you'd be willing to pay. But if nobody is sniping against me , then I get the coin at the level that thousand's of potential buyers bid it up to.
I read it dozens of times - get off your cheap butt and pay a few measly bucks and set a min. reserve on your coin if your worried about it getting ripped - how much simpler can that be to protect yourself ??
I totally agree with you.
In many (most?) cases these guys are simply trolling, looking for offers (which they then transact outside of eBay to avoid fees). Very tacky!
Dave
This particular issue has been discussed over and over here.
There is no enforcement by eBay, in the situation of forcing a seller to sell an item. Call customer service to
complain, and they will tell you this right away. There is a train of thought, from the seller's standpoint, that
they can absolutely choose whether to sell an item, or, even to be selective on who they sell an item to.
This attitude is not likely to win friends and influence people, in the long run. As has been correctly pointed
out, if you are concerned about losing your shirt on something, start the bidding at an appropriate level,
or set a reserve. Or, at a minimum, place a notice in the listings that says that items are subject to prior
sale, or blah blah blah. Anything that puts the bidder on notice would be a nice compromise, IMHO.
Glad to see not too much babble about a contract here. It is practically not the case...
As a seller, I would never remove an item that has bids on it, unless I had lost it, the dog chewed it up,
or some other valid reason. But, as a realist, I can understand why a seller would not want something
which was (on its face) valuable going for a significant loss. Such a mamby-pamby (or girlie man, if you
prefer) should not be surprised if a winning bidder, deprived of an item, leaves negative feedback.
You cannot have your cake and eat it too.
John
SFC, US Army (Ret.) 1974-1994
<< <i>I see a bunch of conflicts here.
Folks claiming snipers make sellers more money.
And these same folks claiming that sniping gets them great deals as a buyer.
I believe the former case is only an occasional thing.
I believe it tends to be the latter, as early bids can generate bid-excitement. And a bunch of excited bidders warring against each other is what moves the price up in my opinion. Sniping is a way for a buyer to avoid this. HOW does that make the seller more money?
It's a disingenuous argument in my opinion.
And I usually bid late, as I want to avoid agitating other, less experienced bidders. >>
However, if you eliminate sniping (such as auto-extending auctions with last minute bids), you will have less bidders, and lower prices overall, becuase the snipers will not participate.
.....................................................
Steve
Think about it....someone gets a good deal (let's say a coin 20-40% below what it 'should' go for. People are likely to remember that and go back to that seller's auctions a lot....a "favorite" seller. Now, they will likely see more action on their auctions.
Chalk it up to an advertising cost.
Anyway.....I agree with a lot that was said since the thread was, for whatever reason, resurrected.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Now there's a 12 hour minimum (before auction end) if there are bids.
<< <i>It is totally obnoxious and greed oriented IMO. >>
And of course there is nothing greedy about withholding bids until the last second hoping to rip a sellers coin for dirt.
The auction houses are oriented toward the seller with bids exceeding the reserve long before the floor auction takes place. Ebay has always favored the buyer hence being the only venue where withholding bids until the last second(sniping) is not only allowed but encouraged.
As long as ebay encourages this practice any seller in his right mind will do anything necessary to protect himself from the bottom feeders.
A seller can't do very well with a reserve bid on ebay even though this works quite well when consigning coins to major auctions.
Not only is the seller discouraged from listing a reserve by an exhorbitant fee that doesn't exist in a major auction but also by the self admitted declaration by many on this forum that they will not bid on any reserve auctions.
It seems if there is no chance to hurt and damage the seller by winning his coins for well below market value then they don't want to play.
Paying fair market value for a coin just isn't any fun.
I have pulled many an auction when after 6 days with just over 12 hrs to go there are 1 or 2 bids for a total of $117.33 on a $2000 coin. At this time I have to decide per ebay rules to end it or sweat 12 hours hoping more than one bidder will at least bid somewhere near market price.
Of course any attempt at fee avoidance brings self righteous indignation from the ebay "posse" who are not at all concerned at their failed attempt to rip a sellers coins--- no --- their only interest is in protecting their beloved ebay whom at all other times they refer to as "sleazebay", "fleabay" and a few other derogatory terms.
I will continue to protect my assets in using the very few options left.
Flame away! Dave W
The sorrow of poor quality lingers on long after the joy of low prices has been forgotten.
David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com
<< <i>Of course there is nothing greedy about withholding bids until the last second hoping to rip a sellers coin for dirt.
The auction houses are oriented toward the seller with bids exceeding the reserve long before the floor auction takes place. Ebay has always favored the buyer hence being the only venue where withholding bids until the last second(sniping) is not only allowed but encouraged.
As long as ebay encourages this practice any seller in his right mind will do anything necessary to protect himself from the bottom feeders.
A seller can't do very well with a reserve bid on ebay even though this works quite well when consigning coins to major auctions. >>
I'm sorry, but that's the way their system works. Don't like it? Don't list there. If you prefer how other venues handle this, then list there. Put your business and your money where your mouth is.
Blaming buyers for not being "altruistic" enough to sellers so as to change bidding strategies which either result in (a) higher prices paid or (b) increased likelihood of losing the auction is just silly. Expecting them to harm their chances of winning an item or expecting them to voluntarily pay more by expecting them to tip their hand early is also silly...and contrary to human nature.
I've bought and sold there, and frankly I'm sick of some sellers acting all the slime is on the buying side and some buyers acting like all the slime is on the seller side.
You can do whatever you want under the rules.
#1 Why does ebay let a seller end a auction in the first place?
#2 Why can't a seller have any recourse to change his or her mind?
#3 I have won multi auctions and the seller refused to sell to me for whatever reason. This is after the auction was over.
Ebay has a policy that alot of you don't know of. A seller doesn't have to sell you anything if they don't want. Yea you can neg them, block them, and file a claim in court. But after it's all over the seller will win.
That's why ebay is a auction house and you as a seller or buyer must do all of the transactions yourself to trade the money for the item or the item for the money. In the end it might work out or it might not.
<< <i>We want names! >>
Why, whats the point?
<< <i>
<< <i>Quite a few time when I see something I really want I will try to offer a fair price to the seller instead of caught in the sniping war. >>
There is nothing wrong with asking the seller to add a BIN to his auction. I did that recently with an 1855 "prooflike" large cent being discussed here and almost got a "you suck" from Joe Lewis. When I plan to snipe an auction I sometimes bid it up to perhaps 50 to 75% of my expected snipe to make sure it doesn't end early and perhaps shake out a few weak bidders.
Don't ask me if I've ever bought a coin off ebay that might have been listed there in the past but as I said above, sellers are not shy at all about cutting ebay out of the transaction after the way they've been treated. --Jerry >>
YOU SUCK!
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
<< <i>
<< <i>Of course there is nothing greedy about withholding bids until the last second hoping to rip a sellers coin for dirt.
The auction houses are oriented toward the seller with bids exceeding the reserve long before the floor auction takes place. Ebay has always favored the buyer hence being the only venue where withholding bids until the last second(sniping) is not only allowed but encouraged.
As long as ebay encourages this practice any seller in his right mind will do anything necessary to protect himself from the bottom feeders.
A seller can't do very well with a reserve bid on ebay even though this works quite well when consigning coins to major auctions. >>
I'm sorry, but that's the way their system works. Don't like it? Don't list there. If you prefer how other venues handle this, then list there. Put your business and your money where your mouth is.
Blaming buyers for not being "altruistic" enough to sellers so as to change bidding strategies which either result in (a) higher prices paid or (b) increased likelihood of losing the auction is just silly. Expecting them to harm their chances of winning an item or expecting them to voluntarily pay more by expecting them to tip their hand early is also silly...and contrary to human nature.
I've bought and sold there, and frankly I'm sick of some sellers acting all the slime is on the buying side and some buyers acting like all the slime is on the seller side. >>
I am not blaming buyers for anything nor expecting them to behave in any any manner I prescribe. I expect everyone to act in a manner that enhances their own self interest. This would include both buyer and seller.
The op seems to think otherwise as do several other posters.
The opening volley was aimed at sellers who deem it in their self interest to end an auction early for whatever reason.
---" a philosophy that that puts other peoples interest ahead of ones own can only exist in a society of cannibals"--- Ayn Rand
Dave W
The sorrow of poor quality lingers on long after the joy of low prices has been forgotten
David J Weygant Rare Copins website: www.djwcoin.com
<< <i>I am not blaming buyers for anything nor expecting them to behave in any any manner I prescribe. I expect everyone to act in a manner that enhances their own self interest. This would include both buyer and seller.
The op seems to think otherwise as do several other posters.
The opening volley was aimed at sellers who deem it in their self interest to end an auction early for whatever reason. >>
That I agree with.
As long as the system is what it is, it's not realistic to expect behavior to change. The system as it is punishes bidders who don't snipe. Both buyer and seller want the "best price" for the item, and as such I wouldn't expect either side to do something which undermines their chances of getting best price. What I didn't like was the implication that people who snipe are necessarily trying to "rip" a coin for pennies on the dollar. Many snipes are placed with very strong money, and it only takes two such people to get a really good price for the coin (from the seller's POV).
Unfortunately, every potential solution I've heard to discourage the wait-and-snipe behavior on eBay causes other problems for bidders and sellers alike that could even result in LOWER prices for the seller. So ultimately, one has to think about which items are appropriate to list there and which would be best offered elsewhere. Personally I don't think someone should list for 99 cents and no reserve if they aren't willing to assume some risk, but just as the "rules" encourage sniping, the "rules" do allow cancellation up to 12 hours before the close.
eBay sellers have the (unconditional?) right to end auctions with more than 12 hours to go. With less than 12 hours to go, only if no bids (OR if bids and reserve not met???).
If they choose to exercise their right and you don't like it (which I personally ABHOR) don't bid with them anymore. An initially believed and professed to be a permanent remedy that will quickly turn into a temporary one if you perceive they have a "rip" next time around.
<< <i>
<< <i>We got tired of having people waiting to the last few secons and use sniping software... so we sometimes end early to defeat it... >>
From a sellers standpoint a snipe is only good if you have two or more snipers. Snipers can sometimes be determined by the number of watchers. Otherwise, it just turns into a giveaway! >>
Lee,
I could agree with you a little. And of course 2 or more snipers makes for some crazy auction endings.
A good sniper does not need to watch the auction. The watch is on their software and does not alert the seller that they even have any interest.
Kind of like a lion stalking its prey. Alerting it is not part of the plan.
Gardnerville, NV
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