Does anyone else think this seller is messing with their pictures?
CoinAuctionsHelp
Posts: 515
If you look at each picture you can see more contact marks in the one than you can the rest. Is this seller blurring some of the pics to make the coin look better than it is?
Possible photo shop ebay pictures
Possible photo shop ebay pictures
0
Comments
Looks like the seller is trying to give
potential bidders different lighting
conditions to better show the coin.
I look at this as a good thing.
~
"America suffers today from too much pluribus and not enough unum.".....Arthur Schlesinger Jr.
Oh, and welcome to the Forum!!
~
"America suffers today from too much pluribus and not enough unum.".....Arthur Schlesinger Jr.
<< <i>Looks like the seller is trying to give
potential bidders different lighting
conditions to better show the coin.
I look at this as a good thing.
~ >>
I'll go along with that.
Edited to add: Apparently, this guy does not know the numismatic meaning of the word "GEM" either.
Second, who's ALT are you post #2 and why do you want to start trouble on a Friday night? Let it go and leave her alone. I have to agree that depending on what software you use to decrease the size of pictures, particularly JPEGS which is a lossy technology with this inherient issue that this could EASILY happen.
IMO, I think this is best left alone.
He does offer a return policy but that coin... looks off
<< <i>I have a couple of comments. First off, this seller seems to have perfect feedback and she also posts numerous photos for each coin. If she was trying to pull a fast one then she wouldn't post the before AND after photos. Duh. She has also be unfairly attacked by a number of members who I understand have received warnings from eBay based on posts here and emails via eBay.
Second, who's ALT are you post #2 and why do you want to start trouble on a Friday night? Let it go and leave her alone. I have to agree that depending on what software you use to decrease the size of pictures, particularly JPEGS which is a lossy technology with this inherient issue that this could EASILY happen.
IMO, I think this is best left alone. >>
Griv...explain to me what a PL cameo is, and why THIS coin qualifies.
http://cgi.ebay.com/1881-S-MORGAN-MS-GEM-PL-CAMEO-PQ-BEAUTY-MRMC028_W0QQitemZ190208820201QQihZ009QQcategoryZ39465QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
If this is by pure chance this is brought up again I apologize. This post caused my eyebrow raised when I saw the seller and that it was from a new member.
Looks like the OP is just trying to start another one up.
<< <i>
<< <i>I have a couple of comments. First off, this seller seems to have perfect feedback and she also posts numerous photos for each coin. If she was trying to pull a fast one then she wouldn't post the before AND after photos. Duh. She has also be unfairly attacked by a number of members who I understand have received warnings from eBay based on posts here and emails via eBay.
Second, who's ALT are you post #2 and why do you want to start trouble on a Friday night? Let it go and leave her alone. I have to agree that depending on what software you use to decrease the size of pictures, particularly JPEGS which is a lossy technology with this inherient issue that this could EASILY happen.
IMO, I think this is best left alone. >>
Griv...explain to me what a PL cameo is, and why THIS coin qualifies.
http://cgi.ebay.com/1881-S-MORGAN-MS-GEM-PL-CAMEO-PQ-BEAUTY-MRMC028_W0QQitemZ190208820201QQihZ009QQcategoryZ39465QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem >>
Hey Gecko . . .
Griv, if your referring to me, I don't use Alt's. I'm a pretty open person. Ya can check my profile. I simply expressed my opinion, and I respect yours. Take Care, jws
edited:spelling.
<< <i>She has also be unfairly attacked by a number of members who I understand have received warnings from eBay based on posts here and emails via eBay. >>
Are you saying that Ebay has warned forum members about their comments on this forum concerning ebay listings? I can see ebay getting involved over emails through the ebay system to a seller, but what jursidiction does ebay have over what is discussed here? New one to me. Again, I learned something else.
I would hope that this forum continues to critique ebay coin listings. It is here where I have learned the most about which auctions to avoid along with their tell-tell signs.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>Which coin grades the highest?
The bottom coin because the pic hasn't been altered.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>"Second, who's ALT are you post #2". Griv
Griv, if your referring to me, I don't use Alt's. I'm a pretty open person. Ya can check my profile. I simply expressed my opinion, and I respect yours. Take Care, jws
edited:spelling. >>
Not you, the OP who brought this issue up on their second post. Typical ALT profile.
So, photoshop experts. What is the difference between these two images??? What is hiding what???
<< <i>This exact same auction has been posted by a couple different form posts. One pic for sure is photo-cured. >>
This auction looks good to me. I See nothing wrong with the photos. Which photo you talking about?
<< <i> Second, who's ALT are you post #2 and why do you want to start trouble on a Friday night? Let it go and leave her alone. I have to agree that depending on what software you use to decrease the size of pictures, particularly JPEGS which is a lossy technology with this inherient issue that this could EASILY happen.
IMO, I think this is best left alone. >>
I'm not sure in what reference you use 'ALT', and I didn't post this to start trouble. I just know the re-sizing of these photos is not the blame for their appearance, at least not entirely. Look at all their auctions and the photos, sure there is several pictures, but all of the same angle. If they want to show different lighting, then allow the light source to shine on the cheek, because it's the most important part of grading a Morgan Dollar. But in every photo either the cheek is darkened or blurry, as is most of the fields in each pic; even some of the design elements around the coin are 'smudged'.
I tried to go back and reassess my thoughts on these pictures, but I keep getting the same feeling. Check this auction out. This one is real obvious
I can't believe PCGS graded this one MS64, and I really can't believe anyone would take up for this seller.
If any seller alters their photos then they are not truly revealing the condition of the coin, and it's these sellers that are starting trouble, and hurting our hobby.
I can resize my photos and I do get a type of blur affect, but not a 'smudge' affect. It's the reason I use super-sized photos so there is no question on the condition of the coin. I have several photos, I took myself, on my website, and none of them look questionable. I make sure they don't look questionable because I care what people think about my coin pictures. Also, I want every little detail to be apparent to the buyer or a person trying to learn important facts about coins.
Here is an original version of a coin I sold on ebay.
Here is my photo altered version. If I used the below photo the final bid would have been higher from a buyer who didn't know better. This photo has been sharpened (certain areas), more blue scale added, and blurred over the areas that have distracting marks, then resized smaller, and I could have done a better job with more time.
If I sold thousands of coins, and wanted the highest bid I could get, and I knew that they where altered pics, but wanted to stay in business, then I would offer a 100% refund, be the best at communicating (always answer emails promptly), and show as many pictures as possible, but still not reveal the coin's most distracting marks. I would also figure out that ebays picture hosting allows for the pics not to be very clear, and that photo size, makes all the difference in the world, in further concealing my handiwork. I would also know that most buyers, that know little about coin grading, would be bidding on my coins, and that most lump a bad sell and don't ask for refunds or leave negs.
Also, I would pic the most lustrous coins but with bag marks (to get them cheaper at a show or from a dealer) so the luster would distract from some of these marks when the buyer received the coin.
Look, I'm not trying to grasp at straws here, and there is a 1% chance that I could be wrong about this seller. However, if anything, this post may help someone realize that photos can be altered in a way that can fool even the best of us.
Even I'm impressed with this sellers feedback, but we all know feedback can be deceiving for a variety of factors.
So, no, I'm not trying to start trouble, or post on a topic that has been beat-to-death. But if this seller is altering their pictures or attempting to purposely hide distracting details on their coins, then they have no business selling on ebay, and this topic should never be dropped. Neither should we tire of pointing out bad pictures or auction sellers, or attack those who wish a safer buying environment online. It's the reason I began my website, to inform, help and prevent coin collectors from being scammed and fooled into spending their hard earned money for a coin less then they thought it was.
What can happen is that someone who many never have even done business with someone can come here anonymously, yet post something public and relatively permanent. In spite of a lack of substance to allegations (explicit or implicit), apparently there are many who will eagerly buy into the accusations because they feel they have just "learned something."
I wonder about the declarations that "this image has been photoshopped." Really. What PS tools were used? How can you tell? Please -- what are the specifics? I have seen posters here make accusations that sound like they're talking about abuse of the Clone Stamp, Healing or Spot Healing Brushes when the far more likely explanation is that they're looking at the mere consequences of simple JPEG compression required to post photos on the web. (I believe that Griv is making a related point above.)
-- On a related note, please keep in mind that there is really no such ideal as "straight from the camera" images. All digital photography requires decisions to be made about contrast, sharpness, and color characteristics before an image can be displayed; every digital camera is programmed to make those decisions before it records the resulting JPEG on its memory card. All images you see on the web are adjusted; the best a seller can do is post those that match, to the best of their ability, the in-hand appearance of the coin.
As I write this, I see that none of the posts so far actually speak from the experience of having bought coins from this seller! Please consider the benefits of what you're posting vs. the risk of damaging what may well be a seller's livelihood. (And good grief, think about silly it looks to get indignant about a seller being "rude" -- golly! -- in response to groundless accusations from an anonymous mob on a message board.) Try doing business with a seller before you bash the way they do business; to do otherwise can be ethically sloppy -- at best.
"La Vostra Nonna Ha Faccia Del Fungo"
I've just spent 10 minutes viewing this sellers images. Sorry kids, the jpeg compression theory is bullsh!t. These images are definitely messed with. Take a good look at the images, the so-called "jpeg compression" would not be limited to the fields and cheek of the Morgan dollars. Not a single image in over 10 coin auctions shows any blurring or smearing in Liberty's hair or in the eagle wing details, yet everyone of them shows some degree of blurring, distortion & smearing in the fields and cheek. That's no accident.
PCGS, ANACS, & NGC Certified Coins on My Website.
<< <i>I wish that posters would consider one thing before they make accusations, including asking leading questions: What if I'm wrong?
...apparently there are many who will eagerly buy into the accusations because they feel they have just "learned something."
I wonder about the declarations that "this image has been photoshopped." Really. What PS tools were used? How can you tell? Please -- what are the specifics?
-- On a related note, please keep in mind that there is really no such ideal as "straight from the camera" images.
Try doing business with a seller before you bash the way they do business; to do otherwise can be ethically sloppy -- at best. >>
Did you look at my before and after pictures? I think they are self explanatory. Yes, photos do not depict a coins true appearance, other wise PCGS would grade by pictures. However, a coin that is over 'fixed' is obvious to an experienced person.
Have you looked at all the auction pictures? You should.
I have examined every photo and their sizes. I read many of the descriptions, and this is what I think is going on. Most of you know that when a coin is held in hand you can see the contact marks, and depending on the type of lighting, these contact marks can be less intrusive or greatly exaggerated. When you take a coin picture some of these marks become more intrusive vs. being looked at with the naked eye. Therefore, since the seller mentions this fact in some descriptions, they are altering their photos as an attempt to make it look as in-hand.
Unfortunately, this makes the coins look odd and over soft, but more appealing; some appear 'cartooned'. Maybe they are not trying to hide details to get a better price, but the photos have been altered.
<< <i>Did you look at my before and after pictures? I think they are self explanatory. Yes, photos do not depict a coins true appearance, other wise PCGS would grade by pictures. However, a coin that is over 'fixed' is obvious to an experienced person.
Have you looked at all the auction pictures? You should.
I have examined every photo and their sizes. I read many of the descriptions, and this is what I think is going on. Most of you know that when a coin is held in hand you can see the contact marks, and depending on the type of lighting, these contact marks can be less intrusive or greatly exaggerated. When you take a coin picture some of these marks become more intrusive vs. being looked at with the naked eye. Therefore, since the seller mentions this fact in some descriptions, they are altering their photos as an attempt to make it look as in-hand.
Unfortunately, this makes the coins look odd and over soft, but more appealing; some appear 'cartooned'. Maybe they are not trying to hide details to get a better price, but the photos have been altered. >>
I apologize if I missed something in this thread, but honestly I'm not sure what the source is of the 1885 before and after pictures. Where did those photos come from?
VamGuy and CoinsAuctionsHelp, I respect your experience but I just don't see the unusual, deliberate blurring or distortion in the photos of the linked auction or other auctions from the same seller. For me those photos are just too small to see those alterations.
If I'm understanding the first post correctly, the concern is that some photos are altered by blurring -- and the suspicion is based on the marks revealed in other photos of the same coin. This does not seem a sensible premise for accusing the seller of attempting some kind of fraud.
After all, those photos do show glaring contact marks, and some of these other coins are graded by PCGS. That's a pretty honest start for coin auctions.
<< <i>
I apologize if I missed something in this thread, but honestly I'm not sure what the source is of the 1885 before and after pictures. Where did those photos come from?
VamGuy and CoinsAuctionsHelp, I respect your experience but I just don't see the unusual, deliberate blurring or distortion in the photos of the linked auction or other auctions from the same seller. For me those photos are just too small to see those alterations.
If I'm understanding the first post correctly, the concern is that some photos are altered by blurring -- and the suspicion is based on the marks revealed in other photos of the same coin. This does not seem a sensible premise for accusing the seller of attempting some kind of fraud.
After all, those photos do show glaring contact marks, and some of these other coins are graded by PCGS. That's a pretty honest start for coin auctions. >>
The 1885 before and after pictures where taken by me as is the 1922 pictures. I was showing how different a coin would look with blurring and sharpening tools, to draw a comparison of the controversial auction pictures.
I can see alteration occurring in 98% of their coin photos. The alteration does not always hide the contact marks, but tones them down. However, some of the pictures shows the marks as smeared, and the overall appearance of the coins look soft or ghost-like, and that is a tell tale sign that a blurred tool was used. Also, the sharpness is over-exaggerated and when the photo is compressed it further distorts the pictures details and luster.
I'm leaning against accusing the seller of fraud. IMO they are trying to make the coins look as they do in hand, but often go overboard in their attempt. The coins look nice, and I would be very careful in buying coins from this seller. But since I think I know what they are doing, then I should be able to pic a good coin. At least, they do admit when a coin is cleaned.
However, they need to leave the coins alone, and try to take pictures with different lighting, camera or angles. We all know coin pictures can exaggerate details, so it's best to concentrate more on your methods of photography then using editing tricks or shading.
<< <i>I wish that posters would consider one thing before they make accusations, including asking leading questions: What if I'm wrong? >>
I hear you talking . . . sometimes (maybe even regularly) individuals are put on trial here without representation and it makes me squirm a bit at times--I confess that I've even piled on once in awhile. Odds are that libel or slander have occurred on occasion if the facts were to be fully disclosed and that can be very damaging to a person emotionally and financially.
On the otherhand, the uncensored feedback the often takes place here has saved me and many others a lot of money and angry frustration by warning me before hand of the unscrupulous practices which unfortunately are pervasive on eBay and other venues. It would be great if there was a process which was more even-handed and diplomatic as well as convenient and unencumbered, but on an open forum such as this without constant heavy-handed moderating it is just not going to happen. Hopefully, the changes planned for the eBay feedback coming up soon will encourage more honest feedback from buyers without the fear of retalitory negatives.
I myself would not buy a coin from the seller in question just on the principles of the enormous defensiveness displayed by the seller in communications shared here and the preponderance of excess verbiage in the listings. In my mind, defensiveness and the excessive verbal "fluff" are excellent indicators that things are not quite as the seller would have you believe.
<< <i>
I myself would not buy a coin from the seller in question just on the principles of the enormous defensiveness displayed by the seller in communications shared here and the preponderance of excess verbiage in the listings. In my mind, defensiveness and the excessive verbal "fluff" are excellent indicators that things are not quite as the seller would have you believe. >>
I didn't even touch on this subject, but when I first click on one of the auctions, I actually read all of this including their guide. By the time I read through the auction ad, I was no longer interested in buying their coins.
<< <i>I have bought coins from this seller and I must say they are great and she is a super nice person. Also a good businesswomen!!!!!!!!!! I have at least 10 coins and counting from her so she is for real.
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
<< <i>I have bought coins from this seller and I must say they are great and she is a super nice person. Also a good businesswomen!!!!!!!!!! I have at least 10 coins and counting from her so she is for real.
Welcome Julie, interesting choice for you first post.......
The pictures have been undeniably altered using a basic blurring tool.
<< <i>interesting choice for you first post....... >>
Hehe.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Typical ALT profile. >>
At least he has a visable profile, not like you!!!
<< <i>If you look at each picture you can see more contact marks in the one than you can the rest. Is this seller blurring some of the pics to make the coin look better than it is?
Check out the pics in this auction of Hers,
http://cgi.ebay.com/1882-S-MORGAN-MS-PQ-PQ-FROSTY-RAINBOW-TONED-APMC006_W0QQitemZ310038824783QQihZ021QQcategoryZ39465QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
The lower Obverse is definatly blurred out. The reason for the high prices on most of Her items is due to the help of Her shill bidders driving the price up.