1904-S Barber Half - the rest of the story

Mowgli · March 24, 2008 8:38AM

I hope you find this as interesting as I did. The 1904-S half (I think it was an AU) that was sold on eBay at the end of last year for a little over $6000 was wholesaled at the Pheonix ANA in March for $8000 and later sold to a collector for $8500 at the same show.

If you do not have one, this is discouraging. If you already have one, you gotta feel pretty good.

roadrunner · March 24, 2008 11:40AM

Could be that the dealer who bought at "wholesale" knew that he had a customer at $8500. Without that ready customer at a stated level, the transaction may not have occurred and the dealer may not have stuck his neck out in the first place. A circ Barber half approaching $10,000 certainly sounds a bit extreme imo.

roadrunner

MFH · March 25, 2008 4:43AM

I remember that 04-S very well. Everyone thought the $6K+ was excessive at that time;
I'm looking at another 1904-S which will be at Heritage's Central States Sale next month,
but this one is a PCGS AU 58. Last year an NGC 58 sold for approx. $ 8650. I expect the
PCGS coin will go for $11,500 w/ buyers fees.

Although, I'm hoping it sells for alot more - as I already have a PCGS 58.

coolest · March 25, 2008 4:46AM

After 5 years I am still looking for a VF example. The best I have found, undamaged and under $3000, is a VG.

doh · March 25, 2008 4:48AM

Yikes. I have a PCGS VF20 which, IMHO, is a bit of a condition rarity too...although not as much as an AU of course. It's funny, price guides tend to have VFs in the $500 range...I'd buy them all day if they were really priced at that level. The price guides are woefully behind many Barber Halves in collector grades.

Walkerguy21D · March 25, 2008 5:33AM

<< The price guides are woefully behind many Barber Halves in collector grades. >>

But it's a good thing when you find dealers who rely on the Greysheet when pricing them

doh · March 25, 2008 5:50AM

<< But it's a good thing when you find dealers who rely on the Greysheet when pricing them >>

Yes it is! But they are getting few and far between....the secret's out I think.

dogwood · March 25, 2008 11:45AM

Here are the dates in the Barber Half series with Equal or fewer coins graded by PCGS in the "Sweet Spot" upper-mid grades of XF40, XF45, AU 50, AU53 as compared to the 1904-s which has a total 15 as of October 07:

96-o.......15
93-s.......15
98-o.......15
02-s.......14
07-s.......13
03-s.......13
96-s.......13
13-p.......13
09-s.......12
13-s.......12
95-s.......12
10-p.......11
95-o.......11
05-p.......11
97-o.......11
11-s........8
04-o........8
01-o........7
05-o........7

I will stand corrected on latest pop #'s but there is a story here.

I dont buy the arguement that no one would take the time and effort to slab an 11-s, as an example, so the numbers are somehow skewed. I think this is very representative of true numbers by this point.

What does it mean? A) there are sleepers of real comparitive value in the series and

though the 04-s is a sexy coin with a major push to holder, it isn't the key to the series except in MS, IMHO.

doh · March 25, 2008 11:50AM

The 04-S is just one of the most publicized. The rest are "sleepers" if you can call them that. I love the 05-O...tough coin. I do, however, buy the arguement that some dates aren't worth grading....yet. I think there are a number out there unslabbed. It's a small number...but not all dates have been emtombed yet

MFH · March 25, 2008 12:40PM

Dennis - your 1905-O - which you listed for sale is a very special coin - and BTW - DOH -
if I were you - I'd snap that coin up in a heartbeat. I mentioned before that the 05-O was
the last coin I located in my better set in AU condition - I bought a MS 64 as a "filler" until
I located one in AU 58 from Gary Hultman.

Yes, there still are some sleepers in the half series. Look at the POP of the 1901-O
in AU 58, its a POP 5. I was pleased to locate a nice NGC 61 at HLRC - and crossed
it to PCGS as an AU 58 - as the coin had some rub on the high point of the cheek.

The 1904-O in AU 58 [ my EX: NGC 58 crossed grade for grade ] is also a POP 5.

The 1904-S POP's now are as high as they are because big money was chasing them.
When I bought Peter Shireman's PCGS AU 55 - it was a POP - 1 ; no higher AU's had
been graded at that time. I have since upgraded my example with another AU 58.

The 1904-S, on Heritage's Central State sale next month, is also a PCGS 58.
I'd love to examine that coin - which has alot of iridescent toning - which seemed
to have been a problem for Heritage's photographer to capture correctly.

Mowgli · March 25, 2008 1:46PM

Dogwood, while I do not disagree with your conclusion that there are other coins than the 1904-S which seem to be rarer - I have 14 of the 20 coins you listed in AU and only two of them were bought in slabs. I hope I am not the only one who buys raw Barbers but I bought 4 out of 5 of the rarity 5 coins that I own, raw (and no not from eBay or Teletrade). It might not change your point but it is possible that there are more nice coins out there than represented by the TPGs.

dogwood · March 25, 2008 3:41PM

Remove the 03-s, 09-s, 11-s and 13-s from my list as anomalous and you are left with a group of coins that are largely discussed as tough, semi key or key date coins, always among the first to get when you can find them. They are equally ripe candidates for tpg submissions and not at all below the threashhold for expense vs. return on fees at the XF/AU level. Heck we've all seen enough dumbstruck submission coins like an 02-p in VG10 to know across the board there tends to be some relationship in holdered vs. actual survival rates especially as the grade works higher. I can't say it's a scientific control group or the like but it's near enough.

Mowgli, yes, I buy most of my coins raw, as well, then send them in to PCGS from time to time. There are many among us who prefer the look of a raw set in a Dansco. I love that and have one each of the Barber Quarters and the Halves in semi progress, so not every coin can be accounted for per your point. But side by side, I'll bet there are no less surviving 04-s's than 04-o's and the price for the former in VF, XF and AU is becoming tenfold higher than that of the latter. It's just wierd.

coolest · March 26, 2008 9:07AM

OK then if the 04-S is not the key circulated date then what are your top 3 in VF or EF?

Cratylus · March 26, 2008 10:58AM

93-S
96-O
05-O

MFH · March 26, 2008 12:28PM

<< 93-S
96-O
05-O >>

I agree - but I also need to add the 95-S , 01-O & 02-s in VF-XF45.

coolest · March 26, 2008 12:30PM

<< 93-S
96-O
05-O >>

No 97-S?

tombr · March 26, 2008 12:35PM

In VF and XF I vote for 00-O, 01-O, 01-S

MFH · March 26, 2008 12:41PM

all coins mentioned - in VF/XF - are tough coins - and yes, the 97-S is a tough one too.

the 04-O deserves honorable mention too. I could certainly use one in XF 45.

Cratylus · March 26, 2008 2:39PM

In all honesty, there are around 20 dates that are "ultra tough" in problem-free VF-XF range:

92-O
92-S
93-O
93-S
94
95-S
96-O
96-S
97-O
97-S
98-O
00-O
01-O
01-S
03
04-O
04-S
05-O
07-S

In other words, a VF-XF set is a true challenge for the dedicated collector. The amount of money you have to spend is virtually irrelevant with this series. What you need more than money is PATIENCE.

USMC_6115 · March 26, 2008 2:55PM

Talking about the 04-S, anyone notice the one on Ebay in PCGS F12? Anyone think it will sell at that high of a price? Looks like it's pushing the market to me, but they don't come up for sale every day so we'll see...

ARCO · March 26, 2008 3:13PM

That Ebay 1904-S has the technical LIBERTY of a fine, but has VG10 details overall IMO. I would never pay that amount. $300-$400 maybe.

I remember seeing a really nicely toned PCGS F12 on Ebay right when the auction started with a BIN of $135.00 a few years back. I had a lapse of sanity for about five minutes and didn't think I wanted it. Changed my mind a few minutes later and it was gone. I snoozed and lost big time.

The grade you NEVER see in the 1904-S is an old school VF30-35, with full feather detail and a solid full LIBERTY...but graded correctly as a VF30-35.

The 1904-S has lost its luster for me. I loved it when only a select few knew how scarce it was and you could pay right at the retail levels in any circulated grade XF40 and under, and that was only about 7-8 years back.

For scarcity to price you will get much more for your money with the:
94
95-S
98-O
00-O
01-O
02-S
03
04-O
05-O
and even the supposedly lowly 1908 is a killer find in original VF30 to 40 as most price it as a common date, of which it definitely is not.

If I had my choice between a totally original XF45 1901-O or the 04-S, prices being equal, I would take the 01-O hands down.

I paid $750.00 for this 04-S

and $450.00 for this one. Karma paid me back for missing that PCGS F12

Tyler

Mowgli · March 27, 2008 1:48AM

ARCO - what you say about relative value of the 04-S to other Barber halves is valid but meaningless if you are a set collector. An 04-S is still required to complete a set.

Cratylus - your list of 20 hard to find VF-XF halves seems to be the same for nice AUs as well. I have ten coins left to complete my set and eight (8) of them are on your list.

I have been collecting Barbers for about 17 months so my opinion could be wrong - it seems like the 04-S halves shot up with that one NGC VF-35 coin that someone bought for $500 a year or so ago. I was offered the same coin at the end of last year for $1550 and a couple of months later the exact same coin was at JJ for $3295 and it is still there. People tend to use this as a yardstick for other VFs when it is truly over-priced. The same thing happened to me when buying a nice NGC AU-50 04-S at the FUN show this year. The one that went for $6113 on eBay just before the show was now the standard by which other AU were sold. I am positive that if that coin had not gone for $6K+ I would have saved a lot of money on the coin I bought.

doh · March 27, 2008 1:57AM

<< The one that went for $6113 on eBay just before the show was now the standard by which other AU were sold. I am positive that if that coin had not gone for $6K+ I would have saved a lot of money on the coin I bought >>

Of course you would have saved money. But eBay is a very good yardstick for values of anything. eBay sale prices are the actual prices people are willing to pay...it's not like a dealer who charging what he thinks a coin is worth (i.e. JJ's 04-S at $3295). You paid pretty much actual value for your 04-S. Chances are you could put it on eBay and get your money back if not a bit more.

MrBreeze · March 27, 2008 4:55AM

I like to get right to the point.

The 1904-s is way overpriced in every circulated grade. I do not know about UNCs because I do not collect them.

The rumor is done. People are "buying the news" right now. The facts are out there, and the experience of those who do this every day should count for something. If I had an 04-s in XF to AU right now, I would have an extremely hard time keeping it, unless it was a part of my permanent set.

Much like tombr, arco and others, I have been beating the drum on the 01-O and 02-S for years. And, I don't really know why, because it only costs me money.

But, the deveil's advocate can kill any argument rooted in fact, numbers, experience, or any other metric you would like to use, because coins sell in a market. In the end, coins change hands at rates governed by supply and demand. If there are (15) 04-Ss that (30) people want, and (10) 02-Ss that (5) people want, the market will price the 04-S higher. I would also include a statement about rational participants in a market, but...

USCGCraig · March 28, 2008 5:48AM

I saw that 04-S in Baltimore. Jim Crabtree offered it to me for $9K. I smiled and thanked him and told him how much it sold for on Ebay. He had a lot into that coin. Glad to see he was able to part wih it though $8,500 is extreme.

No one listed the 05-P as being difficult.

As for time, I just completed the set in PCGS XF45. I don't have my notes in front of me as I am out of town however it took me in excess of 7-years to put this set togther in this grade. This was not a money issue but lack of available coins. I bought PCGS, crossed over NGC, ANACS, SEGS, bought raw, horse traded with many of you, scoured Ebay and every other online coin store almost daily, attended numerous major shows and put bounties out there for coins I needed. Crazy it took over 7-years. Everyone can rest assured that these will get tucked away in the safety deposit box for many, many, many years to come.

MrBreeze · March 28, 2008 6:06AM

Congrats on completing the set. Unfortunately for me, I caught Craigitis and am on the journey to complete a "one grade" set.

busco69 · March 28, 2008 6:14AM

<< But eBay is a very good yardstick for values of anything. eBay sale prices are the actual prices people are willing to pay...it's not like a dealer who charging what he thinks a coin is worth >>

I disagree with this statement as many time people get caught up in the auction and spend way more than a coin is worth.Just because two people want a certain coin no matter what and get into a bidding war the out come is not allways what the coin is worth.

doh · March 28, 2008 6:18AM

<< I disagree with this statement as many time people get caught up in the auction and spend way more than a coin is worth.Just because two people want a certain coin no matter what and get into a bidding war the out come is not allways what the coin is worth. >>

Actually, what someone is willing to pay, regardless of getting caught up in the heat of the moment is the exact definition of "worth." I will agree that many times people pay more than I think a coin is worth, but just because I think a coin is worth X doesn't mean it's really worth X. If someone forks over the cash without a gun to their head, then that's what it's worth.

dogwood · March 28, 2008 9:28AM

Regarding value and worth I always think back to that 1898-O Half PCGS VF35 that sold on ebay in 2006 for almost 1400. Nice coin but.......

Congrats to USCGCraig on getting it done.

Beautiful pair of 04-s Halves Tyler. Interesting consistancy of the reverse soft strike at the upper right shield. The 45 I just sold had the same thing. I spot a diagnostic if these things rocket much higher and start getting faked.

tombr · March 28, 2008 10:06AM

ARCO-those are two FABULOUS 04-S's you have

What a great series to collect

newbarberguy · March 28, 2008 12:26PM

<< As for time, I just completed the set in PCGS XF45. I don't have my notes in front of me as I am out of town however it took me in excess of 7-years to put this set togther in this grade. This was not a money issue but lack of available coins. I bought PCGS, crossed over NGC, ANACS, SEGS, bought raw, horse traded with many of you, scoured Ebay and every other online coin store almost daily, attended numerous major shows and put bounties out there for coins I needed. Crazy it took over 7-years. Everyone can rest assured that these will get tucked away in the safety deposit box for many, many, many years to come. >>

Congratulations Craig! You've worked long and hard on your collection and glad to see that 05-P finally made it! Your zeal and enthusiasm in collecting Barber halves has inspired many...I just happen to be one of them...my collection thanks you but my pocketbook doesn't!

Tyler, very nice 04-S's...very difficult to find nice coins like that that have "the look".

DrPete · March 31, 2008 2:30AM

There's an 04-S in XF45 for sale at Harry Laibstain. It should sell quickly.

Mowgli · March 31, 2008 6:31AM

Laibstain's PCGS XF-45 for $3500 sure seems like a better deal that $8500 for an AU-50.

Barberman55 · March 31, 2008 8:14AM

<< Laibstain's PCGS XF-45 for $3500 sure seems like a better deal that $8500 for an AU-50. >>

I'd rather have the 04-S in a grade 5 points lower and use the extra $5,000.00 to buy more Barber halves.

DrPete · April 1, 2008 10:23AM

Per MFH, the 04-S in XF45 at HLRC.COM has sold. I'm not surprised. I'm sure I'll wish I had bought it in the not too distant future. Good luck to whomever picked it off.

dogwood · April 1, 2008 10:35AM

Further #'s, this time from across the street and in AU58:

The 1904-s has achieved this loft grade for 13 coins (some resubmits?....some now X'd over?...possibly)

1897-s, 1900-o and 1908-s have only two coins apiece in AU58, at NGC.

Stop The Madness!!!!!!!

doh · April 2, 2008 6:06AM

Holy crap, did anyone see this 04-S on eBay??

$900 for a Fine! That's some dough

Edited to add: This VG-10 sold for 1/10 what the Fine went for. I agree, stop the madness!

USMC_6115 · April 3, 2008 2:21AM

Wow, I didn't think it would sell at that level...Crazy!

coolest · April 4, 2008 11:24AM

<< Talking about the 04-S, anyone notice the one on Ebay in PCGS F12? Anyone think it will sell at that high of a price? Looks like it's pushing the market to me, but they don't come up for sale every day so we'll see... >>

Some crazy person just paid $900 for that coin. A PCGS VG10 sold for less than $100 last week. Wow!

Walkerguy21D · April 4, 2008 1:04PM

<< I agree, stop the madness! >>

That's why I've been been buying up all the decent middle and higher circ grade barber halves at ~Bid that I can lay my hands one.....'thar's potential in this here series!'.....I only wish I'd started years ago.

dogwood · April 29, 2008 9:52AM

3000 for that swell NGC VF35 on ebay today.

630 for a nice raw fine 15 this past Sunday.

Those were 2 nice examples.

1904-S Barber Half - the rest of the story

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