Is it better to have an activist collector base with a roving mandate to protect the public, or a mo

Longacre · February 25, 2008 3:35AM

I like the famous statement that RYK made in a previous thread—“is this a hobby or a bloodsport?” Often we focus too much on our hobbies, to the determent of the bigger picture. However, sometimes I feel that our attention should be focused on certain aspects of the hobby, but we spend most of our time focusing on things we cannot change. We frequently post threads about overgraded coins, shady dealers, and other tricks in the trade.

In your opinion, is it better to have an activist collector base, with a roving mandate to protect the public from the bad apples/dealers/other collectors in numismatics? Or is it better to have a more passive collector base, and one that focuses on numismatics as a hobby, rather than something that is more serious than it is?

IGWT · February 25, 2008 3:38AM

What's a roving mandate?

Longacre · February 25, 2008 3:41AM

<< What's a roving mandate? >>

I've heard the term used in the early Supreme Court context (an activist judiciary and the Marshall Court), so I was looking for a way to use it in the coin context

cladking · February 25, 2008 3:49AM

Our first responsibilty is to ourselves. Of course this always entails the responsibility
to others since we can't excel if everyone else is falling away. We also have a responsibility
to the future which most collectors feel keenly.

It's important to learn in a hobby as well as in life and it's only natural for most of us to teach
as well.

It's up to us individually and collectively we usually do a pretty good job. It's easier than ever
to learn in this hobby if that's what you want.

Tonedbuff · February 25, 2008 3:50AM

The hobby has a lot of overtones... more than many, I'd think. Because numismatics is a 'serious' hobby, and because coins have shown typically strong appreciation over time (at least in many cases) the distinction between the hobby and the investment has become a problem. If it were pure hobby, then what one spent would be purely an indication of the pleasure one anticipated in gaining from ownership. When I buy a new fish for my salt water tank, the value is not in the ability to resell, nor is that a consideration: I take pleasure from the item.
In our hobby, the investment angle has brought in the under educated who see this as another angle to make money. Then, the oddidies of our hobby come into play. A person reads that MS65 DMPL morgans are hot, so buys a bunch at a steal, but of course, unlike anything else they have bought before, INTERPRETATION of standards by individual companies allows for, well, outright lying, and the person is screwed.
So, if the collector base just kicks back and allows the rubes to get fleaced, ultimately the hobby gets a bad reputation, and won't get new converts.
So, we try to police ourselves a bit, and end up with the bloodsport you speak of. I think this is better to the extent that we need to continue to drive for better and more standard business practices within the hobby. Any hobby in which someone can outright desribe a thing in a way that would indicate it has X value, when in fact it has a real value of some fraction of X because it is not as described, the collector base has to be vigilent.
We have all been burned, and feel like it is a right of passage sometimes... but really, it was not the cost of education, but the profit of some dirtbag. I'd rather not pay dirtbags for my education, but get it by buying coins, grading them, comparing them to others, etc.
This hobby is full of shady sellers, who hurt the hobby as a whole. I say we keep fighting the fight in any way we can. AND enjoy our coins and the hobby in between!

TwoSides2aCoin · February 25, 2008 3:56AM

It's only a bloodsport at a certain level. Most of us are enjoying it for what it is. A hobby.

jfoot13 · February 25, 2008 4:09AM

<< What's a roving mandate? >>

did a google and came up with Man Date sounded like a gay escort service... guess I better search again

Unknown · February 25, 2008 4:22AM

This content has been removed.

ricko · February 25, 2008 5:07AM

Caveat Emptor..... It is up to the individual to educate themselves. There are a wealth of books, websites and forums for people to research a purchase prior to commitment. It is wrong for us to assume responsibility for all purchasers and at best it would be an ineffective, token effort. Do you see this in other art circles? That being said, if I were to see someone about to make a serious mistake, I would make an effort to inform them of the issue.... however, the responsibility still lies with the purchaser. Just to add a point, I have tried to help people about to make a serious mistake in coin purchases... and they still go with purchase. So much for help. Cheers, RickO

RWB · February 25, 2008 5:10AM

Obviously, coordinated vigilantism is what is needed.

Miscreants would be summarily “holdered and stickered” then led before the masked tribunal for final judgment. Those found guilty – the innocent would never have been holdered and stickered in the first place – would dangle by their wrists from the arms of a screw press as an example for all. Others could be put on display at the central whipping post in the convention bourse. There, they would be stripped of their slabs, stickers pealed off, magnifiers oiled, gray sheets burned, and a list of their transgressions read at the stroke of noon.

Long-term incorrigibles would be sentenced to go to the mint and lap dies with their tongues during the day. At night, their work would continue by cracking slabs with their teeth and drawing security holograms by hand.

This is only the beginning – the next levels of torment are too gruesome for YNs and others to read. Dante Alighieri was too kind:

Lo cielo i vostri movimenti inizia;
non dico tutti, ma, posto ch'i' 'l dica,
lume v'e' dato a bene e a malizia,
e libero voler; che, se fatica
ne le prime battaglie col ciel dura,
poi vince tutto, se ben si notrica.

(Divina Commedia, Purgatorio, XVI, 73-78.)

jfoot13 · February 25, 2008 5:19AM

help is a funny thing when it's unsolicatated.... people seem to think your infringing on their rights ( look at what happens when the goverment trys to protect you from yourself ) ... and as an after thought before you start helping others you better make sure your own house is in order...

IMO Ricko is on spot on this one

TwoSides2aCoin · February 25, 2008 5:23AM

RWB this is

the central whipping post in the convention bourse

Tonedbuff · February 25, 2008 5:33AM

I disagree with the caveat emptor response...
You can argue that warning one person is a drop of water in the ocean, but its like the old world hunger problem... you can't solve it wholesale, but you can help one person at a time and see where things go from there, knowing that the help mattered, and that the problem is just a little bit improved.

All communities thrive best when the individual takes responsibility for the betterment of the community, not just their own welfare, no matter how daunting that task may be... and all of those little bits of education, warnings, etc, add up.

When someone gets nasty because you try to help them (I have had a friend get angry with me when I pointed out her collection of 3rd world slabbed MS66 morgans was cleaned), that is fine. They are not angry at you, but at the news you bring them, and will appreciate it when they calm down. And even if they don't, you've done the right thing, and that is what is important, not the thanks of those you try to help.

RegistryCoin · February 25, 2008 6:23AM

The somewhat logical passive stance (short-term thinking) taken by "for-profit" entities demands that the public protect itself aggressively.
Good question!

ColonialCoinUnion · February 25, 2008 6:35AM

Would you need to pass some sort of numismatic proficiency test in order to become one of these numismatic vigilantes?

Or can anyone with a computer start sending harassing emails in an effort to disrupt strangers' BST transactions?

Gemineye · February 25, 2008 6:55AM

<< Is it better to have an activist collector base with a roving mandate to protect the public, or a more passive one? >>

....Passive....I like passive..........

Tonedbuff · February 25, 2008 7:18AM

<< Would you need to pass some sort of numismatic proficiency test in order to become one of these numismatic vigilantes?

Or can anyone with a computer start sending harassing emails in an effort to disrupt strangers' BST transactions? >>

The term 'numismatic vigilante' is certainly a loaded one...
And yes, the boards do sometimes head in that direction, but the protection of the hobby does not have to be taken to that level. I'd certainly argue that using boards like this, as an example, to talk about the risks of buying overgraded 3rd world slabs, is warning buyers and helping out, withough attacking. I also think that pointing out fraudulent ebay sellers (fake slabs, bad descriptions, etc) is reasonable. Like everything else in life, good intentions can go bad, but overal, the presence of those with good intentions taking actions on them make the hobby a better place.

Organizing it into some 'group' sounds a bit overboard. I am just talking about people talking to people and always taking a pro-active stance on protecting the hobby and educating those they can.

There is a big difference between a vigilante and a concerned person helping out. Vigilante's take the law into their own hands, what we are talking about here is providing assistance and knowledge of the pitfalls to collectors. The majority of mature adults understand the distinction, those that don't are always a challenge, but are part of the price we pay for simply having people care, versus sit by and watch. You ever hear about the stories of dozens of people sitting by and watching someone get beat up, or mugged and thought someone should have done something... not just stood by. Doing something in that case is looking out for the betterment of a fellow citizen, not vigilanteism. That is the equivalence I'd like to see. Not going after people we 'think' may do something bad, or people who have a different opinion, but helping out when clearly something bad is happening.

Maybe its asking too much, but in general, that is what I see happen on these boards, and it is 80% good, so we suck up the 20% bad.

ColonialCoinUnion · February 25, 2008 8:54AM

Tonedbuff -

That's a well crafted response.

BECOKA · February 25, 2008 8:57AM

I think that help is always needed. Its just that some people have blocks for heads and don't think they need it.

Education is key and it takes a "roving mandate" to get peoples attention.

Fairlaneman · February 25, 2008 11:06AM

<< Like everything else in life, good intentions can go bad, but overal, the presence of those with good intentions taking actions on them make the hobby a better place. >>

<< I am just talking about people talking to people and always taking a pro-active stance on protecting the hobby and educating those they can. >>

<< Doing something in that case is looking out for the betterment of a fellow citizen, not vigilanteism. That is the equivalence I'd like to see. Not going after people we 'think' may do something bad, or people who have a different opinion, but helping out when clearly something bad is happening. >>

This could just possibly be the single best post I have read on this forum about helping the hobby participants in general.

Ken

Is it better to have an activist collector base with a roving mandate to protect the public, or a mo

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