Are dealers accountable for educating their consumers?

GoldenEyeNumismatics · February 21, 2008 4:15PM

This question is a spillover from MrEureka's ethics thread... RYK's response to it made me think...

In the thread each response was supposed to give some support for both the pro and con sides of an issue. This was one of the reponses supporting the "pro" side. (Sorry RYK, I hope you don't mind me quoting your post):

"An ethical dealer should educate a consumer, especially an unsophisticated one, of the nuances of esoteric numismatic items before selling them an item."

Opinions?

TwoSides2aCoin · February 21, 2008 4:30PM

Well, we're asking a moral question, now. I didn't find anything in the other thread that even remotely deals with "ethics". When a sale is final, it's over ! There was no open end on the sale, so it was a done deal forever.

And NO, dealers are not accountable or responsible for educating their customers. However, a good business man will always get the answer for his potential customer's questions, and a smart one will even stand behind his products or services after the sale or service.

DUIGUY · February 21, 2008 4:40PM

My experience with the best dealers has bin they will offer their educational expertise every time, wether the collector welcomes it or not.
One of my favorite dealers allways ends his critique with, "You don't want your a$$ handed to you on a platter". Allways sound advice.

Dawg144 · February 21, 2008 4:48PM

It is an ethical dealer's responsibility to answer a client's questions as truthfully as possible, which was fulfilled in the case of Newbie Norman. It is, however, also the client's responsibility to do not only their homework, but to investigate the coin as much as possible and as soon as possible to meet the refund deadline.

Dealers, by definition, do not necessarily have the role of educator. Many dealers explicitly say that one of their objectives is to educate their clientele, but many others do not. In fact, since many dealers, including pawn shop and flea market shop owners, are highly unknowledgeable about coins, it may be better to keep quiet about their coins' history besides what they know first-hand (which should be disclosed if asked for, since I would hesitate to buy a coin with the Sum Ting Wong pedigree (I liked this name, so I stole it from another thread)). Just my humble opinion.

seatedcoins · February 21, 2008 4:51PM

No. If the customer asks questions honest answers should be given

Zoins · February 21, 2008 4:55PM

I don't think many people think it's the responsibility of dealers that sell third world slabs and AT coins to educate their customers. Would this be similar?

silvermonger · February 21, 2008 5:00PM

The fact that someone would ask such a question, or imagine a scenario such as posed in the earlier post, is proof what weeny Americans we have become. Anymore it seems like if it doesnt have a one foot square warning label and 10,000 words of fine print in 4pt type stating the government legislation dealing with the specifics of fair treatment of coin consumers we are helpless waifs in the wilderness.
Another option would be to educate ourselves at least elementally before throwing down the plastic for a slab but then that would be too much like assuming responsibility for our own wellbeing. A coin shop is like any other business, some are very helpful some less so.

Zoins · February 21, 2008 5:03PM

<< The fact that someone would ask such a question, or imagine a scenario such as posed in the earlier post, is proof what weeny Americans we have become. [...] A coin shop is like any other business, some are very helpful some less so. >>

If you mean like businesses that sell undisclosed counterfeit Oakleys and Prada, then you may be on to something. It is certainly true that many Americans seek out counterfeit sunglasses and purses as well as counterfeit coins.

BECOKA · February 21, 2008 5:36PM

No.

It would seem that most dealers these days are not numismatists.

I prefer to go to a Dealer that also studies coins and will most likely learn. Unfortunately if there is something I need that no one else has I will take my limited knowledge and make an educated choice to purchase an item from a Dealer who is not a Numismatist.

droopyd · February 21, 2008 5:42PM

<< My experience with the best dealers has bin they will offer their educational expertise every time, wether the collector welcomes it or not. >>

And these are the dealers people will return to time and again as they develop a long-standing relationship.

howards · February 21, 2008 6:21PM

Is it the responsibility of a grocer to educate you about foods before you buy them? (Don't buy those crackers, Norm, they have too much salt for you!)

Dealers are there to make deals. That's what the name means. Dealers may not commit fraud of any kind (misrepresent or lie), but they are not required to supply information that is not requested. They are not even required to provide all information that is requested, for example, how much they have "in" a coin. But if they are asked a factual question that is materially relevant to the coin, I believe they are required to answer as honestly as possible. (Grading questions are a gray area since grading isn't factual.)

In the case at hand, if Norm had asked "What does 'New Haven Restrike' mean?", then I think the dealer would be obligated to provide as full an explanation as he could, or at least refer Normie to a reliable source.

greghansen · February 21, 2008 7:48PM

IMO offering educational tidbits (if they are accurate) frequently will stoke the interest of the customer and ultimately cause them to be a bigger, better customer for the dealer. If the dealer can successfully 'fan the flames' of curiosity or interest in the customer, he usually will acquire not only the loyalty of the customer, but more transactions down the road. I don't view it as an obligation for the dealer to educate the customer. I view it simply a good business practice if the customer exhibits and interest in receiving the educational information. Some customers don't want to be told anything or don't think they can learn anything...since they already know it all.

PerryHall · February 21, 2008 8:50PM

<< No. If the customer asks questions honest answers should be given >>

Agree. It's up tp the consumer to educate himself. He can start by participating in this coin forum and the buying and reading a few coin books and subscribing to the major coin publications.

curly · February 21, 2008 9:18PM

Well brother, I don't think they are responsible for educating their consumers, but it's obvious that the ones who do have a better business. It's just good business practice to show your costumers that you are a partner in furthering their growth in numismatics.

ColonialCoinUnion · February 21, 2008 10:25PM

<< Well brother, I don't think they are responsible for educating their consumers, but it's obvious that the ones who do have a better business. It's just good business practice to show your costumers that you are a partner in furthering their growth in numismatics. >>

Once again I find myself agreeing with Curly.

Isn't it interesting that doing the right thing can also be good for business? Imagine that.

curly · February 21, 2008 11:01PM

<< 

<< Well brother, I don't think they are responsible for educating their consumers, but it's obvious that the ones who do have a better business. It's just good business practice to show your costumers that you are a partner in furthering their growth in numismatics. >>

Once again I find myself agreeing with Curly.

Isn't it interesting that doing the right thing can also be good for business? Imagine that. >>

Now, if I could just learn the proper spelling of customer

Fairlaneman · February 21, 2008 11:12PM

<< No. If the customer asks questions honest answers should be given >>

I go along with this statement. After a period of time I believe a dealer will know what you want and like. At that point he may say this coin is for you or he might say this coin is not for you. A opinion like this from a dealer is very much appreciated and could be taken as education I believe.

Ken

poorguy · February 21, 2008 11:47PM

"An ethical dealer should educate a consumer, especially an unsophisticated one, of the nuances of esoteric numismatic items before selling them an item."

I agree with this sentiment.

ricko · February 21, 2008 11:53PM

I agree totally with Curly... well stated brother.... Cheers, RickO

astrorat · February 22, 2008 12:23AM

Interesting proposition...it does depend somewhat on how you define "educate." Few dealers have the requisite knowledge or skills to educate collectors. Yes, there are some who can - many of whom teach for the ANA at Summer Seminar or have done so in the past. But too many just pass on "tidbits" and misinformation as "teaching." Just because, as a customer, you learned some trivia does not mean you have been educated. Also, just because you are a dealer and can talk louder than your customer, interrupt them, and make them feel ignorant about some topic, does not mean you are educating them in the process (I've seen this way too many times at shows and in shops!).

Lane

ahooka454 · February 22, 2008 12:27AM

<<Well brother, I don't think they are responsible for educating their consumers, but it's obvious that the ones who do have a better business. It's just good business practice to show your costumers that you are a partner in furthering their growth in numismatics.
>>

I agree 100%, but its a shame when there is only maybe a small handful that do this. Im still looking.

Not saying its their job, but when someone says they are "going to help you" it usually means they will help if it is in their best interest.

RegistryCoin · February 22, 2008 12:40AM

It may be in the best interest of the dealer to educate some customers at least to the point where they understand his business practice, and the industry practices in general, to avoid any misunderstandings, miscommunications, or other potential mistakes that could cause any future legal problems.

ziggy29 · February 22, 2008 12:42AM

Accountable? No. But the best and most ethical dealers don't try to bury newbies in their buying mistakes.

hockeyfan9 · February 22, 2008 1:06AM

IMO a dealer is under no obligation to educate a customer. I believe it is in the best interest of a dealer to educate customers. I know the better the service I receive in anything the more likely I am to continue shopping there. I think it is a good business practice and something that will seperate you from the competition. I would guess from ready many of your post on this board that you already know this.

Mark

seemyauction · February 22, 2008 1:37AM

"Are dealers accountable for educating their consumers?"

I have found that an educated buyer is more willing to pay what something is worth, than an uneducated buyer.

Alan

Bear · February 22, 2008 2:07AM

I believe that the really good dealers

do educate their customers.

TwoSides2aCoin · February 22, 2008 2:08AM

<< I believe that the really good dealers

do educate their customers. >>

I should never have posted to the thread and just waited for this one.

~The End~

09sVDB · February 22, 2008 3:13AM

Should/yes.................required /no, but most good dealers are very willing to help.

FullStrike · February 22, 2008 3:26AM

It is a Dealers responsibility to take care of Number-1 above all else. How that dealer goes about that goal is up to him. If he sees that responsibility as giving pennies on the dollar during a purchase or selling crap at ultra rip-off prices, so be it. If he treats all sellers and buyers as valued assets, well good for him.

It is the Coin seller or buyers job to watch out for their own interests. If they blindly trust the guy across the counter, they may well be ripped into next year. That goes for anything - not just Numismatics.

I like the phrase " Trust but verify". Don't remember who said it - might have been Reagan, might have been Bush, Sr.

DaveG · February 22, 2008 4:27AM

Dealers educating customers can be a pretty delicate "dance."

It's one thing of a customer admires an item and asks "What is it?" and another if a customer says "I like that! I want to buy it!"

If the first instance a dealer should talk about the item. In the second, it'd be a very brave dealer who says "I won't sell it to you until I tell you all about it."

coinpage · February 22, 2008 7:46AM

Only if they want repeat customers.

RWB · February 22, 2008 10:48AM

A seller’s obligation is honesty and complete disclosure. A buyer’s obligation is to educate themselves.

There are details, but those are the basics, in my opinion.

Unknown · February 22, 2008 11:14AM

This content has been removed.

Longacre · February 22, 2008 11:18AM

It is up to the consumer to educate themselves, especially in an adversarial relationship such as dealer/consumer (and I don't mean that negatively-- the consumer should protect himself and be the first line of defense for himself. The consumer is obligated to ask the right questions rather than blindly following advice).

TwoSides2aCoin · February 22, 2008 11:21AM

<< A seller’s obligation is honesty and complete disclosure. A buyer’s obligation is to educate themselves.

There are details, but those are the basics, in my opinion. >>

And I agree with you , too.

JohnMaben · February 22, 2008 11:26AM

I think it's ridiculous to suggest that a dealer should be obligated to volantarily educate each and every customer. On the other hand, if a dealer is asked a question, he should give the right answer, so if this is what you are asking, then yes. As a dealer, I am annoyed by customers who ask questions for which the answer is easily obtained, as it indicates to me a certain level of laziness, lack of research, lack of due dilligence. (we get this from eBay customers most frequently) Still, I answer but suggest they obtain reference books, look online, attend shows, etc in pursuit of higher knowledge. Sometimes customers forget they are dealing with a business (not another hobbyist) that is for profit and time is as valuable as the coins they may purchase... we get customers who sometimes just wish to talk... about anything, or about something specific to them that does not involve transacting business at all. If we allowed that all of the time, we would be out of business, neglecting good customers that know what they want and know our job is to get the best coins for them at competitive prices with fast delivery and great customer service, not to help them pass some idle time in extended phone conversation. Fortunately, we seem to have for the most part attracted buyers to our website who are just as busy as we are and share our philosophy. There are places to go to "talk coins" such as coin clubs, shows etc and these are also excellent ways to self-educate.

John

LeeG · February 22, 2008 11:30AM

Full disclosure shall set you free.

Bochiman · February 22, 2008 11:42AM

No. Imho, a dealer is NOT responsible for educating the consumer. Two caveats though...
1) A GOOD dealer WILL educate
2) The dealer shouldn't rip off the consumers (yeah yeah...define "rip off"...different definition for many)

bestday · February 23, 2008 12:28AM

<< My experience with the best dealers has bin they will offer their educational expertise every time, wether the collector welcomes it or not.
One of my favorite dealers allways ends his critique with, "You don't want your a$$ handed to you on a platter". Allways sound advice.

>>

AH !!!!! the old Bowers and Merena..they were one of the best with helping collectors.Those who help collectors can move on to be very successful.

amiller · February 23, 2008 12:38AM

<< A seller’s obligation is honesty and complete disclosure. A buyer’s obligation is to educate themselves. >>

I agree.

percyb · February 23, 2008 1:18AM

I always ask my dealer questions and he answers them quite honestly...he knows I spend money in his store and will continue to if he's straight with me. He's a guy making an honest living. What better quality could you want to embrace?

Are dealers accountable for educating their consumers?

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