Old Green Holders and their implications

crispy · February 22, 2008 3:35AM

I have a few questions regarding the PCGS “Old Green Holders” or “OGH”.

In looking at Conder101’s book on slabs, I see that they were discontinued with the onset of the “blue” slabs in November of 1998. What isn’t clear is when they started utilizing the green holders. What was the duration of this particular type of holder?

Are these what everyone considers to be “rattlers”?

Some of these seem to be popular as candidates for crackouts and upgrades. Do you agree that PCGS was conservative during this period or was this limited to just a few different series?

I realize, of course, that even if they were to be considered tight on the grading that it wouldn’t necessarily be true of every individual slab. There does seem to be a lot of people that will label a coin “OGH” and state that it is a candidate for the next grade up. This always seems to be noted when the coin is on the market. I’m not talking about the “crackout” game here, but rather, the implied value of the coin based on the fact that it’s sitting in an OGH and it has yet to be potentially upgraded. Do you think that this is too much of a generalization? I see this practiced everywhere. A lot of the candidates for upgrades have probably been cherried out already, leaving the more accurately graded coins behind. Yes, a coin should stand on its own merit but is the term “OGH” and its implications being overused?

Disclaimer: Any coins currently being described as such that are for sale either here (on the boards) or on other venues are purely coincidental. I’m not describing any one situation or case here so please don’t get upset.

SilverEagles92 · February 22, 2008 3:36AM

OGHs and Rattlers are two completely different things.

blu62vette · February 22, 2008 3:38AM

I’m not talking about the “crackout” game here, but rather, the implied value of the coin based on the fact that it’s sitting in an OGH and it has yet to be potentially upgraded. Do you think that this is too much of a generalization?

Yes you will see many threads that OGH coins that are traded around have no upgrade potential or the potential upgrade value is not wiorth the price to upgrade. OGH coins that come out of a 10 year hibernation are a different story and could be candidates worth a little more.

harvey85422458 · February 22, 2008 3:40AM

One on left is a rattler right is a OGH

coindeuce · February 22, 2008 3:44AM

<< I’m not talking about the “crackout” game here, but rather, the implied value of the coin based on the fact that it’s sitting in an OGH and it has yet to be potentially upgraded. Do you think that this is too much of a generalization?

OGH coins that come out of a 10 year hibernation are a different story and could be candidates worth a little more. >>

So you're expecting that all of the OGH coins sold by boiler room telemarketers to neophyte investors in the bull market of 1989 should be jumping out of the cracks in the pavement now??

silvermonger · February 22, 2008 3:50AM

Maybe you will find a bargain! or then again maybe its marketing BS! What is "OGH"? Over Graded Holder? LOL
Crackouts have been a game for 20 years, do you really think someone is going to sell a ms64 old slab if there is any possibility it will upgrade to 65? That could be a 10k$ jump in value. Unless you are talking about common date coins or something of little value to begin with. The "old green holder" may have been that coins major selling point for the last 6-7 times it has been sold and resold.
Im betting most of those coins being marketed that way are coins only average for the grade, possibly overgraded to begin with or they wouldnt be on the market, they would be in someones safe. IMO, they are commodity coins.

crispy · February 22, 2008 3:52AM

<< One on left is a rattler right is a OGH

>>

Thanks for posting these Harvey.

So the one on the left (rattler) is a first generation holder? Were all of these considered "rattlers"?

Shamika · February 22, 2008 4:01AM

<< 

<< One on left is a rattler right is a OGH

>>

Thanks for posting these Harvey.

So the one on the left (rattler) is a first generation holder? Were all of these considered "rattlers"? >>

Yes, the one on the left is a first generation holder and all are considered "rattlers".

Fairlaneman · February 22, 2008 4:01AM

The only time a person should fall for or even consider the OGH hype is when you see a run of coins within a series that appear to have been socked away for a long period of time. This happens about once a year from what I have seen.

Ken

crispy · February 22, 2008 4:08AM

<< Yes, the one on the left is a first generation holder and all are considered "rattlers". >>

Thank you Shamika.

DJCoinz · February 22, 2008 4:09AM

<< One on left is a rattler right is a OGH

>>

For some reason these two coins seem very familiar ...

Shamika · February 22, 2008 4:11AM

<< One on left is a rattler, right is a OGH

>>

It should be remembered that some sellers refer to the rattler slabs as OGH's even though they are not.

SilverEagles92 · February 22, 2008 4:11AM

I can see someone paying a premium for a coin in an OGH in only one instance. Copper.

If the coin has not turned in an OGH already, the chances of the coin turning bad from now on is slim to none, and slim left town.

I did this very thing with my Fugio cent recently. Only bought a coin in an OGH, that way I could be reasonably sure the coin would not turn color in the holder. With newer, blue label slabs, you cannot be so sure.

ricko · February 22, 2008 4:15AM

Evaluate the coin, not the holder. Enough said. Cheers, RickO

blu62vette · February 22, 2008 4:17AM

<< 

<< I’m not talking about the “crackout” game here, but rather, the implied value of the coin based on the fact that it’s sitting in an OGH and it has yet to be potentially upgraded. Do you think that this is too much of a generalization?

OGH coins that come out of a 10 year hibernation are a different story and could be candidates worth a little more. >>

So you're expecting that all of the OGH coins sold by boiler room telemarketers to neophyte investors in the bull market of 1989 should be jumping out of the cracks in the pavement now??

>>

No I am just saying that a coin that hasnt been around the dealers and just came from a collection may have the undergrade possibility. For the OGH and rattlers that are out in the market now and have been any OGH premium is hype.

BECOKA · February 22, 2008 4:21AM

It's just hype. I have seen over graded coins in OGH's as well. There are probably more upgrades waiting to happen in modern holders if you know what to look for.

crispy · February 22, 2008 4:27AM

<< I can see someone paying a premium for a coin in an OGH in only one instance. Copper.

If the coin has not turned in an OGH already, the chances of the coin turning bad from now on is slim to none, and slim left town.

I did this very thing with my Fugio cent recently. Only bought a coin in an OGH, that way I could be reasonably sure the coin would not turn color in the holder. With newer, blue label slabs, you cannot be so sure. >>

Is this a product of time or that OGH were encapsulated better (tighter). I often think about this when considering Indians or Lincolns that are currently R or RB.

fc · February 22, 2008 4:32AM

i have been very pleased by every rattler i have ever bought. try finding the same quality in
today's slabs is next to impossible for me. i just do not see it.

au55

ms60

roadrunner · February 22, 2008 4:37AM

do you really think someone is going to sell a ms64 old slab if there is any possibility it will upgrade to 65?

Sure, why not? I've sold some away myself and have bought some from others. There's never a guarantee of an upgrade. In some cases I'd be happy to take a 30-50% premium and let the next guy deal with the possible upgrade. In fact in one case I had an ogh in PF 66 that I sold to a fellow forum member. He got it into a 67 holder and that did indeed add about $15K to the price of the coin. However in that particular instance I'd have to call that a mistake and a lapse of judgement in a moment of financial weakness.

roadrunner

crispy · February 22, 2008 9:53AM

So the concensus (with a couple of expections) seems to be that if there is enough disparity in price between the current and possible upgrade, then it would have been done long ago and therefore "OGH" tends to be hype. That is unless some come on the market that have been tucked away since their initial slabbing.

SilverEagles92 · February 22, 2008 10:04AM

<< 

<< I can see someone paying a premium for a coin in an OGH in only one instance. Copper.

If the coin has not turned in an OGH already, the chances of the coin turning bad from now on is slim to none, and slim left town.

I did this very thing with my Fugio cent recently. Only bought a coin in an OGH, that way I could be reasonably sure the coin would not turn color in the holder. With newer, blue label slabs, you cannot be so sure. >>

Is this a product of time or that OGH were encapsulated better (tighter). I often think about this when considering Indians or Lincolns that are currently R or RB. >>

This is definitely a product of time. Here's an example. A coin is sent into PCGS in 1998, when they were still using the OGH's. It is graded MS65RD, let's say it's an Indian Head Cent. Today, you see the coin at a show - it's not RD. It's not even RB. It's a dark BN. The coin has turned in the holder.

If you buy an identical coin in an OGH that is STILL RD, you can be reasonably sure that it will not change over time, it's held its color for 10 years in this holder.

TomB · February 22, 2008 10:43AM

Conder101 was incorrect in his assessment that the new blue holders appeared in November, 1998 because I sent in a coin to PCGS in September, 1998 and had it returned in late September or early October, 1998 in a blue holder. It was the first blue insert PCGS holder I had ever seen and my first reaction was that they dye in the paper had a problem. Conder101 was not aware of that tidbit when he wrote his book, but he now knows it and will likely update the changeover date if there is a second edition.

While many OGH coins have been picked over, it is certainly not the case that all of them have suffered that fate. Many times collectors will not bother to re-certify their coins, but will charge a premium for the quality of the coin in the holder. I have purchased a number of coins in this manner.

By the way, the 1881 half eagle that fc posted is gorgeous.

DeusExMachina · February 22, 2008 10:53AM

<< While many OGH coins have been picked over, it is certainly not the case that all of them have suffered that fate. Many times collectors will not bother to re-certify their coins, but will charge a premium for the quality of the coin in the holder. I have purchased a number of coins in this manner. >>

I own a Charlotte half that used to be in an OGH. The dealer that sold me the coin cracked it and sent it in raw to PCGS. It came back with the exact same grade as the OGH (I think it was undergraded both times). I wish it were still in the OGH. Now before you jump on me about collection plastic, I'm going to cite the CRO guide to originality. A coin in an OGH has been entombed for some time and more than likely has avoided many of today's recent games.

MORGANHUNTER2 · February 22, 2008 10:57AM

I like rattlers and the wrap'd rattler as well.

I have a few from the ol days.

Dog is a sick puppy...

BECOKA · February 22, 2008 11:07AM

<< 

<< While many OGH coins have been picked over, it is certainly not the case that all of them have suffered that fate. Many times collectors will not bother to re-certify their coins, but will charge a premium for the quality of the coin in the holder. I have purchased a number of coins in this manner. >>

I own a Charlotte half that used to be in an OGH. The dealer that sold me the coin cracked it and sent it in raw to PCGS. It came back with the exact same grade as the OGH (I think it was undergraded both times). I wish it were still in the OGH. Now before you jump on me about collection plastic, I'm going to cite the CRO guide to originality. A coin in an OGH has been entombed for some time and more than likely has avoided many of today's recent games. >>

What most people don't seem to get is the majority of coins in old holders or new are properly graded. It's only a handful that were borderline that sometimes get the conservative grade. These are the ones that make news. I have heard of more upgrades in current holders than the older ones.

mightyhunter · February 22, 2008 11:20AM

I seldom post on these boards. I have a complete set of Standing Liberty Quarters including the 1916 and the 1918/17S. I put the collection together with raw coins many years ago. I only submitted the keys to PCGS in the 1990's. The 1916, 1918/17 S, 1919 D, 1919 S, 1920 D, 1921, 1923 S and the 1927 S are all in OGH PCGS slabs. The 1921 if resubmitted would come back at the same XF 40 grade. I am confident that the other seven dates would upgrade by 5 to 15 pts at PCGS now. The 1916 is in a very early green holder and is graded VG 8 and has a date that is almost full with nice original color and surfaces and the leg is not completely flat. The 1923 S has a full bold 4 digit date with full shield rivets and has a slightly flattened leg. The pcgs holder grades it VF 25. I have recently seen a couple of 1923 S quarters in PCGS blue holders graded VF 25 that have less detail and a partial or weak date. My OGH 1927 S is graded VF 30 by PCGS. Not long ago I sold a 1927 S in a blue PCGS VF 35 holder on EBAY. The color, detail and wear on that coin couldn't hold a candle to the OGH VF 30. My guess is my VF 30 would grade XF 40 today. What I believe is there are many undergraded coins in OGH PCGS slabs but I would bet that most of them are locked up in collections and seldom appear on the market. If I should decide to go with a registry set and have the others slabbed, I might seek a regrade on the keys. Otherwise they will just stay in the green holders.

BECOKA · February 22, 2008 11:28AM

<< I seldom post on these boards. I have a complete set of Standing Liberty Quarters including the 1916 and the 1918/17S. I put the collection together with raw coins many years ago. I only submitted the keys to PCGS in the 1990's. The 1916, 1918/17 S, 1919 D, 1919 S, 1920 D, 1921, 1923 S and the 1927 S are all in OGH PCGS slabs. The 1921 if resubmitted would come back at the same XF 40 grade. I am confident that the other seven dates would upgrade by 5 to 15 pts at PCGS now. The 1916 is in a very early green holder and is graded VG 8 and has a date that is almost full with nice original color and surfaces and the leg is not completely flat. The 1923 S has a full bold 4 digit date with full shield rivets and has a slightly flattened leg. The pcgs holder grades it VF 25. I have recently seen a couple of 1923 S quarters in PCGS blue holders graded VF 25 that have less detail and a partial or weak date. My OGH 1927 S is graded VF 30 by PCGS. Not long ago I sold a 1927 S in a blue PCGS VF 35 holder on EBAY. The color, detail and wear on that coin couldn't hold a candle to the OGH VF 30. My guess is my VF 30 would grade XF 40 today. What I believe is there are many undergraded coins in OGH PCGS slabs but I would bet that most of them are locked up in collections and seldom appear on the market. If I should decide to go with a registry set and have the others slabbed, I might seek a regrade on the keys. Otherwise they will just stay in the green holders. >>

Unless you are trying for the top spot I would keep them in the old green holders. I tend to like those better than the modern slabs.

oreville · February 22, 2008 1:21PM

<< So the concensus (with a couple of expections) seems to be that if there is enough disparity in price between the current and possible upgrade, then it would have been done long ago and therefore "OGH" tends to be hype. That is unless some come on the market that have been tucked away since their initial slabbing. >>

I do not agree that there was a concensus on that.

Keep in mind that the main allure of the OGH these days is that they do tend to be PQ for the grade even though most of them may in fact have now been picked over.

True, these remaining OGH are no longer upgrades-in-waiting but they ARE mostly very solid for the grade, or PQ and especially for copper, an example of great storage stability.

Many collectors, myself included, have purchased OGH and rattler PCGS graded coins back in the early to mid 1990's in which they exist, unseen for over 10 years.

ArizonaJack · February 22, 2008 1:23PM

I do know that when selling OGH's on Ebay, there is a rule that you have to put " possible upgrade" in the description !!!!

Old Green Holders and their implications

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