Very interesting turn of events, to say the least. Now only time will tell if they're going to be true to what they state in the article. I look forward to seeing the finished product.
<< <i>Not sure why you would by a company like PCI. The barrier to entry can't be all that great and you would have a chance to start with a fresh name, free of baggage.
How would you value the PCI name? >>
I bought two gold half eagles that crossed at PCGS. They were purchased off of eBay. I bought two half eagles graded by NGC that were returned by PCGS and were DNC'd . Neither of them crossed and I ended up selling them for less money than I originally paid because I believe in full disclosure at the point of sell. I dont' disagree that certain hills need to be climbed, but... A company is as good as the integrity of those who run it. >>
IMO NGC overgrades half eagles consistently by 1-3 points. The good part is they are consistent, the bad part is you will never get your money back if you cross them to PCGS who has a tighter standard.
Thank you for all for the considerate postings I've read so far. I certainly expected to hear a firestorm of responses to this endeavor but I am really excited about this acquisition. Frankly, because the auction was a sealed-bid process we had plenty of time to think about the decision but very little time since last Saturday when we were "awarded" the high bid to decide the details of day-to-day operations.
For starters, I will respond to the most obvious (and very good!) question as to why we would buy PCI and keep the name, rather than start from scratch. Indeed, if we had lost the bid I would have gone that route. However, I believe that PCI is a good brand name that was mismanaged for a long time. We will distinguish all the "new PCI" slabs with a brand new label design and, ultimately, an improved holder. We will bring to the new PCI all the customer service aspects that we have honed over 20 years at DLRC. We will build a robust web site with modern features and, most importantly, we want the new PCI coins to stand on their own in the marketplace. We will grade conservatively by all standards and DLRC will make a two-way market in the coins.
I realize that there is a lot of baggage with the old PCI name, but I think we can turn the perception around quickly with our actions. Time will tell.
One more thought about our "target" market: Just as we have built a company around catering to coin collectors, we want to build PCI as a grading service for the same folks.
Regarding questions about a law suit against the ANA: I am not privy to any of the details regarding the law suit; nor am I/we party to those law suits. I have no interest in pursuing those actions. We want to go forward in the most positive manner possible.
Lastly, this is not a make-or-break effort on the part of DLRC. We have been enjoying great success lately and we love the current coin market. We are up to two Internet auctions every week and volume has been steadily climbing. We moved to a 12,000 square building six months ago with the goal of growth! This is just the first step and you can count on our presence in the coin market for a long time. I personally love coins and technology -- and I'm having the time of my life with all of this.
Thanks again for your comments and feedback. I am taking notes as we work on re-building this company.
Since you dropped by you should know that PCI was not founded as Hallmark. Hallmark was a different service, and PCI bought their assets when they folded.
What would have been said here if Heritage had bought PCI? I think a lot of wrath would have erupted. I echo the sentiment of one other here that a dealer/auctioneer/grading company should not be owned by the same person/persons. For very obvious reasons. Im not saying the new owners intend anything wrong. Not at all. But over time, lines blur, gray areas are bound to develop. If these seperate interests can be compartmentalized properly, then I think it will prosper. If not, who knows.
In an insane society, a sane person will appear to be insane.
Since you dropped by you should know that PCI was not founded as Hallmark. Hallmark was a different service, and PCI bought their assets when they folded.
We will grade conservatively by all standards and DLRC will make a two-way market in the coins.
this reminds me of cac and i have as of yet seen it happen. almost all one way if you ask me in their case. a coin's price will be judged solely on the coin itself and not the plastic or sticker.
why bother throw in this two-way market stuff is beyond me. it changes nothing in the long run.
<< Since you dropped by you should know that PCI was not founded as Hallmark. Hallmark was a different service, and PCI bought their assets when they folded. >>
Thanks Russ, I will edit the letter to correct that.
Once the slabs start hitting the market, the educated consumer will judge the quality. Hallmark was a great grading company, and the coins were generally graded very conservatively. I upgraded a lot of Halmark coins into PCGS holders. As a major Franklin player for many years, and considering longevity, PCGS has is effect set the standard for that particular series. It would be foolish to dismmiss the new PCI without looking at the product. If they tend to grade very tightly, the upgrade potential could be enormous.
Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
<< <i>What would have been said here if Heritage had bought PCI? I think a lot of wrath would have erupted. I echo the sentiment of one other here that a dealer/auctioneer/grading company should not be owned by the same person/persons. For very obvious reasons. Im not saying the new owners intend anything wrong. Not at all. But over time, lines blur, gray areas are bound to develop. If these seperate interests can be compartmentalized properly, then I think it will prosper. If not, who knows. >>
Doesn't Heritage own a major interest in NGC? They seem to cope.
Isn't there an inherent conflict between and entity that grades coins and one that engages in retail sales?
PS. with that said, I have had great experiences with David Lawrence in the past.
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
I have had several outstanding transactions with DLRC, and I will continue buying from them. I wish them luck with the PCI thingy. I try to always buy the coin not the slab, so we'll see about the grading. As far as doing grading submissions, I cannot imagine ever using the service myself. -Preussen
"Illegitimis non carborundum" -General Joseph Stilwell. See my auctions
<< Can anyone talk of the reputation of John Feigenbaum and David Lawrence Coins? >>
Generally PQ coins for the grade, IMO. Having said that, quality isn't cheap.
Let's not jump the gun to sainthood quite yet. Getting fair and reasonable value for your retail dollar is one thing. Always getting pq coins is quite another. The number of dealers who legitimately sell only pq coins is extremely small. So small in fact that I cannot think of one at the moment. And having strong prices and glowing descriptions doesn't make something pq either.
The new PCI will need to substantially differentiate themselves from the major TPGs to have a chance. I wish them luck and hope they have something interesting up their sleeves!
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doogy---Now that's both funny and disturbing at the same time.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
If they grade tough.......there won't be any slabs on the market....the coins will end up elsewhere.
If they grade loose........there won't be any slabs on the market ...because they will have increasingly diminished submissions.
The question is.............how are they going to establish MARKETABILITY and keep the coins in their holders? Maybe you start with your own personal collection as a grading standard????????????
OR.....maybe take the raw coins sent to DLRC, grade them at PCI correctly, sell them on DLRC website and establish marketability thru DLRC 'auction' results. Hmmmmm...
<< <i>Oh, and a coin dealership, which is also an auctioneer and in the grading business, will soon bring up all the questions about conflicts of interest. After all, why should DLRC get a pass for owning and operating PCI, while JA was raked over the coals for starting the CAC? >>
Actually, the VERY first thought I had reading the title of this thread, before I even opened it, was "conflict of interest."
No free pass from me (for what little that's worth).
Well, if DLRC owns the rights to all of PCI and PCI bought Hallmark or assumed rights to the name as part of the transaction, why not change the name back to Hallmark?
If I was in the shoes of DLRC, I would consider this strategy... and a Hallmark Registry Set.
Sounds brilliant to me...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Well, if DLRC owns the rights to all of PCI and PCI bought Hallmark or assumed rights to the name as part of the transaction...
I'm quite sure that the principals of Hallmark would not have sold the name to PCI. However, DLRC could probably purchase the name now, quite reasonably!
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i> Well, if DLRC owns the rights to all of PCI and PCI bought Hallmark or assumed rights to the name as part of the transaction...
I'm quite sure that the principals of Hallmark would not have sold the name to PCI. However, DLRC could probably purchase the name now, quite reasonably! >>
If required. What actions are required to enforce a trademark from a defunct company?
<< <i>Well, if DLRC owns the rights to all of PCI and PCI bought Hallmark or assumed rights to the name as part of the transaction, why not change the name back to Hallmark?
If I was in the shoes of DLRC, I would consider this strategy... and a Hallmark Registry Set.
Sounds brilliant to me... >>
I think someone else, maybe in England, and selling on eBay is using that name. The prices were so low the material had to be questionable. Here is what I could find on the current ( likely out of business ) Hallmark Coin Grading Service. See this.
I can't imagine why anyone thought this could be a make or break type decision - I am sure you got assets reasonably - your other business seems great - probably already have key people available - just need some more support
AND THE TIMING
If you guys get up and going with a good product,
I could see you being the number 3 TPG next year with all the going ons in Colorado
<< <i>Well, if DLRC owns the rights to all of PCI and PCI bought Hallmark or assumed rights to the name as part of the transaction, why not change the name back to Hallmark?
If I was in the shoes of DLRC, I would consider this strategy... and a Hallmark Registry Set.
Sounds brilliant to me... >>
I think someone else, maybe in England, and selling on eBay is using that name. The prices were so low the material had to be questionable. Here is what I could find on the current ( likely out of business ) Hallmark Coin Grading Service. See this. >>
I'm quite sure that the principals of Hallmark would not have sold the name to PCI. However, DLRC could probably purchase the name now, quite reasonably!
We do not know what they bought because we have not seen the PCI-Hallmark purchase agreement. The name, trademark and the assets and liabilities may have been part of the agreement... who nknows? I think DLRC needs to find the purchase agreement and look to see what they really own or don't own.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
David Lawrence Rare Coins has done well for me. I wish them well in their PCI grading service. Such an attempt to become a major grading service is going to be very difficult. I would not like the odds of success.
Wonder what they will charge me to get my two PCI graded coins reholdered into the new design.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
<< <i>Well, if DLRC owns the rights to all of PCI and PCI bought Hallmark or assumed rights to the name as part of the transaction, why not change the name back to Hallmark?
If I was in the shoes of DLRC, I would consider this strategy... and a Hallmark Registry Set.
Sounds brilliant to me... >>
I think someone else, maybe in England, and selling on eBay is using that name. The prices were so low the material had to be questionable. Here is what I could find on the current ( likely out of business ) Hallmark Coin Grading Service. See this. >>
>>
Here are slabs from (bogus non-Q.D.B.) Hallmark, an ebay seller/self slabber grading harshly cleaned EF/AU fare (such as the one on the left) as high grade MS... The website is now defunct.
PCI on many coins did a good job. I use to send them my JFK's and get them slabbed cheap in 67 or 68. You really wouldnt believe how many PCGS crossed straight into their holders. At a show I spoke with a PCGS grade and he said the reason was simple, PCI and PCGS grading techniques were very similar.
DLRC bought PCI? What is to become of the 3 year old state of the art new building PCI built?
I live in Virginia Beach I wonder where in the world, here they are going to try to try and run a large operation like this. I may just be apply for a job with them as a grader for JFK's/DIMES/LINCOLN'S and Classic Commens. Oh sorry I was just thinking out loud.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>Not sure why you would by a company like PCI. The barrier to entry can't be all that great and you would have a chance to start with a fresh name, free of baggage.
How would you value the PCI name? >>
I bought two gold half eagles that crossed at PCGS. They were purchased off of eBay.
I bought two half eagles graded by NGC that were returned by PCGS and were DNC'd . Neither of them crossed and I ended up selling them for less money than I originally paid because I believe in full disclosure at the point of sell.
I dont' disagree that certain hills need to be climbed, but... A company is as good as the integrity of those who run it. >>
IMO NGC overgrades half eagles consistently by 1-3 points. The good part is they are consistent, the bad part is you will never get your money back if you cross them to PCGS who has a tighter standard.
For starters, I will respond to the most obvious (and very good!) question as to why we would buy PCI and keep the name, rather than start from scratch. Indeed, if we had lost the bid I would have gone that route. However, I believe that PCI is a good brand name that was mismanaged for a long time. We will distinguish all the "new PCI" slabs with a brand new label design and, ultimately, an improved holder. We will bring to the new PCI all the customer service aspects that we have honed over 20 years at DLRC. We will build a robust web site with modern features and, most importantly, we want the new PCI coins to stand on their own in the marketplace. We will grade conservatively by all standards and DLRC will make a two-way market in the coins.
I realize that there is a lot of baggage with the old PCI name, but I think we can turn the perception around quickly with our actions. Time will tell.
One more thought about our "target" market: Just as we have built a company around catering to coin collectors, we want to build PCI as a grading service for the same folks.
Regarding questions about a law suit against the ANA: I am not privy to any of the details regarding the law suit; nor am I/we party to those law suits. I have no interest in pursuing those actions. We want to go forward in the most positive manner possible.
Lastly, this is not a make-or-break effort on the part of DLRC. We have been enjoying great success lately and we love the current coin market. We are up to two Internet auctions every week and volume has been steadily climbing. We moved to a 12,000 square building six months ago with the goal of growth! This is just the first step and you can count on our presence in the coin market for a long time. I personally love coins and technology -- and I'm having the time of my life with all of this.
Thanks again for your comments and feedback. I am taking notes as we work on re-building this company.
Since you dropped by you should know that PCI was not founded as Hallmark. Hallmark was a different service, and PCI bought their assets when they folded.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>John,
Since you dropped by you should know that PCI was not founded as Hallmark. Hallmark was a different service, and PCI bought their assets when they folded.
Russ, NCNE >>
They were pretty close.
this reminds me of cac and i have as of yet seen it happen. almost all one way if you ask me in their case.
a coin's price will be judged solely on the coin itself and not the plastic or sticker.
why bother throw in this two-way market stuff is beyond me. it changes nothing in the
long run.
Thanks Russ, I will edit the letter to correct that.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>What would have been said here if Heritage had bought PCI? I think a lot of wrath would have erupted. I echo the sentiment of one other here that a dealer/auctioneer/grading company should not be owned by the same person/persons. For very obvious reasons. Im not saying the new owners intend anything wrong. Not at all. But over time, lines blur, gray areas are bound to develop. If these seperate interests can be compartmentalized properly, then I think it will prosper. If not, who knows. >>
Doesn't Heritage own a major interest in NGC? They seem to cope.
Chance favors the prepared mind.
PS. with that said, I have had great experiences with David Lawrence in the past.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>Isn't there an inherent conflict between and entity that grades coins and one that engages in retail sales? >>
I don't know of too many dealers that don't grade their own coins and then engage in retail sales of said coins. I know we do.
<< <i>
<< <i>Isn't there an inherent conflict between and entity that grades coins and one that engages in retail sales? >>
I don't know of too many dealers that don't grade their own coins and then engage in retail sales of said coins. I know we do. >>
apples to oranges.
you don't "certify" them and "encapsulate" them. Doing so is a bit of a step beyond simply scratching some remarks on a 2by2.
That being said I'd still prefer one of your raw ones that's guaranteed.
That's all a collector needs to know !
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>I have done many overly satisfied transactions with DLRC, always smooth as butter! >>
Just won some coins in their Monday auction.
Leo
P.S. Fictional Coin
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Generally PQ coins for the grade, IMO. Having said that, quality isn't cheap.
Let's not jump the gun to sainthood quite yet. Getting fair and reasonable value for your retail dollar is one thing.
Always getting pq coins is quite another. The number of dealers who legitimately sell only pq coins is extremely small.
So small in fact that I cannot think of one at the moment. And having strong prices and glowing descriptions doesn't make
something pq either.
roadrunner
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I'll be looking forward to scooping up some new PCI 'problem coins', and crossing them over to PCGS with a one point upgrade!
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Personally, I'll be chasing the new PCI labels. There should be some bargains to be had for a while.
Russ, NCNE >>
You've got that right!!
If they grade loose........there won't be any slabs on the market ...because they will have increasingly diminished submissions.
The question is.............how are they going to establish MARKETABILITY and keep the coins in their holders? Maybe you start with your own personal collection as a grading standard????????????
OR.....maybe take the raw coins sent to DLRC, grade them at PCI correctly, sell them on DLRC website and establish marketability thru DLRC 'auction' results. Hmmmmm...
By starting the PCI/DLRC Registry and offering cash prizes to the top lemmings.
<< <i>Oh, and a coin dealership, which is also an auctioneer and in the grading business, will soon bring up all the questions about conflicts of interest. After all, why should DLRC get a pass for owning and operating PCI, while JA was raked over the coals for starting the CAC? >>
Actually, the VERY first thought I had reading the title of this thread, before I even opened it, was "conflict of interest."
No free pass from me (for what little that's worth).
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
If I was in the shoes of DLRC, I would consider this strategy... and a Hallmark Registry Set.
Sounds brilliant to me...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I'm quite sure that the principals of Hallmark would not have sold the name to PCI. However, DLRC could probably purchase the name now, quite reasonably!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i> Well, if DLRC owns the rights to all of PCI and PCI bought Hallmark or assumed rights to the name as part of the transaction...
I'm quite sure that the principals of Hallmark would not have sold the name to PCI. However, DLRC could probably purchase the name now, quite reasonably! >>
If required. What actions are required to enforce a trademark from a defunct company?
Chivas Regal did it. with plain ole scotch.
Diamond miners did it. "the bigger the piece of glass, the more you love her" Wow, did that ever work.
Cadillac did it.
ICG and Anacs never were able to do it.
<< <i>Well, if DLRC owns the rights to all of PCI and PCI bought Hallmark or assumed rights to the name as part of the transaction, why not change the name back to Hallmark?
If I was in the shoes of DLRC, I would consider this strategy... and a Hallmark Registry Set.
Sounds brilliant to me...
I think someone else, maybe in England, and selling on eBay is using that name. The prices were so low the material had to be questionable.
Here is what I could find on the current ( likely out of business ) Hallmark Coin Grading Service.
See this.
Chance favors the prepared mind.
I can't imagine why anyone thought this could be a make or break type decision
- I am sure you got assets reasonably
- your other business seems great
- probably already have key people available - just need some more support
AND THE TIMING
If you guys get up and going with a good product,
I could see you being the number 3 TPG next year with all the going ons in Colorado
<< <i>
<< <i>Well, if DLRC owns the rights to all of PCI and PCI bought Hallmark or assumed rights to the name as part of the transaction, why not change the name back to Hallmark?
If I was in the shoes of DLRC, I would consider this strategy... and a Hallmark Registry Set.
Sounds brilliant to me...
I think someone else, maybe in England, and selling on eBay is using that name. The prices were so low the material had to be questionable.
Here is what I could find on the current ( likely out of business ) Hallmark Coin Grading Service.
See this. >>
Chance favors the prepared mind.
We do not know what they bought because we have not seen the PCI-Hallmark purchase agreement. The name, trademark and the assets and liabilities may have been part of the agreement... who nknows? I think DLRC needs to find the purchase agreement and look to see what they really own or don't own.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>
Actually, the VERY first thought I had reading the title of this thread, before I even opened it, was "conflict of interest."
No free pass from me (for what little that's worth). >>
David Hall's company doesn't submit their own coins to PCGS. I am sure DLRC will have similar policies with PCI
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>Was this an asset or stock deal? >>
pci basically was mismanaged to the point they decided to just sell
off the assets in an auction.
<< <i>Was this an asset or stock deal? >>
It was a coin deal, that's why this hasn't gone POOF , yet
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Wonder what they will charge me to get my two PCI graded coins reholdered into the new design.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Well, if DLRC owns the rights to all of PCI and PCI bought Hallmark or assumed rights to the name as part of the transaction, why not change the name back to Hallmark?
If I was in the shoes of DLRC, I would consider this strategy... and a Hallmark Registry Set.
Sounds brilliant to me...
I think someone else, maybe in England, and selling on eBay is using that name. The prices were so low the material had to be questionable.
Here is what I could find on the current ( likely out of business ) Hallmark Coin Grading Service.
See this. >>
Here are slabs from (bogus non-Q.D.B.) Hallmark, an ebay seller/self slabber grading harshly cleaned EF/AU fare (such as the one on the left) as high grade MS... The website is now defunct.
into their holders. At a show I spoke with a PCGS grade and he said the reason was simple, PCI and PCGS grading techniques were very similar.
DLRC bought PCI? What is to become of the 3 year old state of the art new building PCI built?
I live in Virginia Beach I wonder where in the world, here they are going to try to try and run a large operation like this. I may just be apply for a job with them
as a grader for JFK's/DIMES/LINCOLN'S and Classic Commens. Oh sorry I was just thinking out loud.
Al