An open question to all dealers/shop owners
gecko109
Posts: 8,231 ✭
What are you guys paying for common date unc 1/10th oz AGE's? seems the pawn shops near me should be called "rip shops" based on the buy quotes I have gotten so far.
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Comments
Whoever was looking for cheap 1/10 eagles a couppla months ago give me a call.
Ask for Tom D.
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
<< <i>Would you believe that a south suburban pawn shop offered me $75 each? Another one offered 91% of spot. Are there that many stupid/desperate people out there with coins like these who sell so cheaply as to allow these pawn shops to offer such insultingly low bids? >>
It could very well be that there are not a lot of people buying with the prices so high so the shops are figuring they may have to sit on them for a while. They will probably resell at spot. If they sell over spot then they are trying to rip you.
<< <i>Are there that many stupid/desperate people out there with coins like these who sell so cheaply as to allow these pawn shops to offer such insultingly low bids? >>
Yep.
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
<< <i>Would you believe that a south suburban pawn shop offered me $75 each? Another one offered 91% of spot. Are there that many stupid/desperate people out there with coins like these who sell so cheaply as to allow these pawn shops to offer such insultingly low bids? >>
91% OF SPOT AT A PAWNSHOP AND YOU THINK THIS IS BAD!?!?! Where I live that amount is unheard of. Here in CA the good dealers in the Bay Area are selling at spot and buying between 95-99% of spot. But when you get out of the Bay Area, I see dealers paying between 70-95% of spot and pawnshops are offering between 25-50% of spot.
If a pawnshop out here offered 91% of spot, I would hope there would be a working defibrillator nearby someone could test out on me.
Don't get me wrong, I would not sell my metals for these prices but then again, I know where to go. Most people don't.
Rob
"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."
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<< <i>Would you believe that a south suburban pawn shop offered me $75 each? Another one offered 91% of spot. Are there that many stupid/desperate people out there with coins like these who sell so cheaply as to allow these pawn shops to offer such insultingly low bids? >>
91% OF SPOT AT A PAWNSHOP AND YOU THINK THIS IS BAD!?!?! Where I live that amount is unheard of. Here in CA the good dealers in the Bay Area are selling at spot and buying between 95-99% of spot. But when you get out of the Bay Area, I see dealers paying between 70-95% of spot and pawnshops are offering between 25-50% of spot.
If a pawnshop out here offered 91% of spot, I would hope there would be a working defibrillator nearby someone could test out on me.
Don't get me wrong, I would not sell my metals for these prices but then again, I know where to go. Most people don't. >>
25-50% of spot on AGE's? Or are you talking for scrap gold? By the way, 91% isnt bad, its HORRIBLE!
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<< <i>Would you believe that a south suburban pawn shop offered me $75 each? Another one offered 91% of spot. Are there that many stupid/desperate people out there with coins like these who sell so cheaply as to allow these pawn shops to offer such insultingly low bids? >>
91% OF SPOT AT A PAWNSHOP AND YOU THINK THIS IS BAD!?!?! Where I live that amount is unheard of. Here in CA the good dealers in the Bay Area are selling at spot and buying between 95-99% of spot. But when you get out of the Bay Area, I see dealers paying between 70-95% of spot and pawnshops are offering between 25-50% of spot.
If a pawnshop out here offered 91% of spot, I would hope there would be a working defibrillator nearby someone could test out on me.
Don't get me wrong, I would not sell my metals for these prices but then again, I know where to go. Most people don't. >>
25-50% of spot on AGE's? Or are you talking for scrap gold? By the way, 91% isnt bad, its HORRIBLE! >>
25-50% of spot on AGE's? yes
Or are you talking for scrap gold? yes
By the way, 91% isnt bad, its HORRIBLE!
It might be horrible in your area but it is very acceptable in others areas to many. Again, I am not saying it is right. I am just agreeing with UTAH coin: There are many ignorant people out there. On the other hand, there are many people that are not willing to drive 100 miles round trip to sell 1-3 coins for 98% of spot , when they may drive 2 miles and get 90% of spot.
Rob
"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."
<< <i>By the way, 91% isnt bad, its HORRIBLE! >>
91% is a genuinely fair offer.
If they buy a 1/10 oz AGE at $80, and sell at $105, what do they make? $25... that's not too much. And what if gold goes down?
They have to support themselves too.
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<< <i>By the way, 91% isnt bad, its HORRIBLE! >>
91% is a genuinely fair offer.
If they buy a 1/10 oz AGE at $80, and sell at $105, what do they make? $25... that's not too much. And what if gold goes down?
They have to support themselves too. >>
No disrespect intended, but either you live in a one shop town, or you dont understand the PM market. We arent talking about apples or toothpaste. On those items, merchants will realize 20-25% profits. On bullion however, and any large dealers correct me if im wrong, 6-13% is about the norm profit margin. Trust me on this. Any metals broker, or large coin shop worth their salt will take in bullion at about 95-97% back of spot, and move it out at 3-8% over spot. Those are industry standard spreads here in Chicago. Anything larger than that is just a rip joint.
I have been trading both silver and gold bullion for a long time. I very rarely received many chances to purchase below spot and I have almos always profited.
Minnie Minoso Master and Basic
1967 Topps PSA 8+
1960's Topps run Mega Set
"For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
<< <i>This whole thread is laughable. I respect alot of the people who have posted in this thread but you guys have got to be kidding. I have not found ANYONE who sells 1/10 oz eagles at spot. There is usually a small premium and sometimes a large premium. To offer someone that much less than spot is a rip, you know it and I know it. And enough of this poor dealer has to make a profit crap. If they ran their businesses honestly they would get alot more business to begin with. Would not be hard to profit if they offered 95-97% of spot and then sold them with the expected premium over spot. If they can't afford to play the game right they should get out of the game.
I have been trading both silver and gold bullion for a long time. I very rarely received many chances to purchase below spot and I have almos always profited. >>
This is kinda like figuring in auction costs when your bidding on coins... if the juice is 20% do you bid the value if the coin or the value- 20% ... suppose a private individual sells the same coin for 5% less than the total cost from the auction house is the auction house a crook for charging more ( they have catalogs, B&M, payroll, advertising ect.. I'm not saying there aren't crooks running pawn shops but they don't always have the freedom to manage inventory that private individuals do.
<< <i>I don't know what the laws are now but years ago it was required that these items be held for 30 days and item lists had to be sent to the local police depts.... If the item turns up stolen there is the cost of recovery ( if you can recover anything ) the time to testify in court... all this has to be included in the cost of doing business..
This is kinda like figuring in auction costs when your bidding on coins... if the juice is 20% do you bid the value if the coin or the value- 20% ... suppose a private individual sells the same coin for 5% less than the total cost from the auction house is the auction house a crook for charging more ( they have catalogs, B&M, payroll, advertising ect.. I'm not saying there aren't crooks running pawn shops but they don't always have the freedom to manage inventory that private individuals do. >>
"these items"? Maybe I need a more powerful loupe, but I havent noticed any serial numbers on 1/10th AGE's. Where is that located? On the rim?
The bullion thing is an evil that most shop do because they have to, not because they want to. On more than one occasion after a big price drop, we've pulled the gold & silver and let the market recover.
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't know what the laws are now but years ago it was required that these items be held for 30 days and item lists had to be sent to the local police depts.... If the item turns up stolen there is the cost of recovery ( if you can recover anything ) the time to testify in court... all this has to be included in the cost of doing business..
This is kinda like figuring in auction costs when your bidding on coins... if the juice is 20% do you bid the value if the coin or the value- 20% ... suppose a private individual sells the same coin for 5% less than the total cost from the auction house is the auction house a crook for charging more ( they have catalogs, B&M, payroll, advertising ect.. I'm not saying there aren't crooks running pawn shops but they don't always have the freedom to manage inventory that private individuals do. >>
"these items"? Maybe I need a more powerful loupe, but I havent noticed any serial numbers on 1/10th AGE's. Where is that located? On the rim? >>
I'm not 100% sure of what your point is ... the laws about reporting and holding I was referring to precious metals and jewelry... nothing was mentioned about serial numbers.. and I believe I did say this was some time ago when I was involved in this end of the business and the states I did business in were PA and CT..
I don't think you need a more powerful loupe but a more open mind wouldn't hurt... and your right we are talking apples and oranges here.. this is just like going to a colonial dealer to sell your jefferson varieties... is he a crook because he dosen't give you top dollar or do you accept your share of the responsiblity for offering your material in the wrong spot..
So much is lost when people are not speaking face to face. I am not saying you guys are wrong but I am getting a little annoyed with some of the tone that I feel is coming across.
As far as the nature of this thread correct me if I am wrong: Someone asked for what I refer to in my job as "Market Data". I understood the question to be "What is going on your area?" Because of my job I am all over Northern California and I am fortunate enough to frequent several coin shops on a regular basis. I have gotten to know several dealers and have watched them conduct business.
Gecko asked me for information and I told him what a have seen.
Jeff not everyone sells at spot but I have seen it and Gecko asked so I told him. Most B&Ms/pawnshops make $$ at both ends. I was simply telling you what was going on in my market.
Don't take this the wrong way but this is one of my largest pet peeves so I'm going to fire away:
Jeff, since you know so much about my market from Arizona please tell me more?! Why should I even bother to go out and check into my market. Although I have spent a large amount of time in B&M shops, shows etc. for the past few years, it sounds like you have a much better grasp on it from somewhere in the greater Phoenix area so by all means please tell me how is my market these days?
Don't get me wrong I am still very green behind the ears and a novice compared to many of the dealers in this area. I have much to learn about Numismatics but trust me, I can at least help with a local PM marketing report!
Rob
"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."
95% is acceptable but 91 is not? So basically for 4.00 the guy buying for 91% is a crook?
Sometimes I just don't get people. No one forces anyone to sell at a specific place. maybe the person who offers 91% sells at 105% and the person that buys at 95% sells at 109%.
I wonder how many of these people that get so stressed over dealers making a lil profit would act if they owned a shop and actually had overhead.
Yes from the confines of you warm home your hobby has no overhead. In the real world those people have to make a living, if giving them 4.00 helps them then I am all for it.
And yes in NY you have to have ID and the buyer is supposed to write your name down when pawning PM. The police can check the book at anytime.
Steve
Minnie Minoso Master and Basic
1967 Topps PSA 8+
1960's Topps run Mega Set
"For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
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<< <i>By the way, 91% isnt bad, its HORRIBLE! >>
91% is a genuinely fair offer.
If they buy a 1/10 oz AGE at $80, and sell at $105, what do they make? $25... that's not too much. And what if gold goes down?
They have to support themselves too. >>
No disrespect intended, but either you live in a one shop town, or you dont understand the PM market. We arent talking about apples or toothpaste. On those items, merchants will realize 20-25% profits. On bullion however, and any large dealers correct me if im wrong, 6-13% is about the norm profit margin. Trust me on this. Any metals broker, or large coin shop worth their salt will take in bullion at about 95-97% back of spot, and move it out at 3-8% over spot. Those are industry standard spreads here in Chicago. Anything larger than that is just a rip joint. >>
Not everyone is a significant player in the precious metals market, and therefore not everyone can pay what you believe to be a fair offer.
If 95% is your idea of fair, how can 91% be "HORRIBLE"? For someone whose probably not a major dealer in metals, buying gold at very high and arguably unstable gold price, 4% is not a substantial differentiation.
https://www.civitasgalleries.com
New coins listed monthly!
Josh Moran
CIVITAS Galleries, Ltd.
Minnie Minoso Master and Basic
1967 Topps PSA 8+
1960's Topps run Mega Set
"For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
<< <i>Well looks like my post got a little lost in translation as well. I was speaking more about coin and bullion dealers than pawn shops. As far as me only knowing the AZ market I have only lived here since June 1st 2007 before that I lived in Chicago so I know that market as well. But here all along I was led to believe that I was trading bullion that was traded all over the world not just where I lived???? What I was trying to say with my last post is that bullion/coin dealers do not sell for spot. I have looked all over this great country of ours and I have yet to find one shop that sells gold at spot. I can't even get bars at spot. >>
Jeff, thank you for clarifying, I appreciate what your saying. Again, maybe it's my demographic but right now there are a few locations that are unloading PM at spot most likely because they have so much inventory.
Rob
"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."
<< <i>
<< <i>Well looks like my post got a little lost in translation as well. I was speaking more about coin and bullion dealers than pawn shops. As far as me only knowing the AZ market I have only lived here since June 1st 2007 before that I lived in Chicago so I know that market as well. But here all along I was led to believe that I was trading bullion that was traded all over the world not just where I lived???? What I was trying to say with my last post is that bullion/coin dealers do not sell for spot. I have looked all over this great country of ours and I have yet to find one shop that sells gold at spot. I can't even get bars at spot. >>
Jeff, thank you for clarifying, I appreciate what your saying. Again, maybe it's my demographic but right now there are a few locations that are unloading PM at spot most likely because they have so much inventory. >>
Thats awesome I just wish I could find those places. I continue to be amazed by the prices I am quoted when I try to sell things to a B&M store. I just chuckle and say no thanks. I tried to sell a very nice graded early $5 gold eagle a couple weeks ago and was offered $4 under spot that is insanity. Anyways I sometimes buy from B&M's but I will stick to selling online.
Minnie Minoso Master and Basic
1967 Topps PSA 8+
1960's Topps run Mega Set
"For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
<< <i>
<< <i>
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<< <i>By the way, 91% isnt bad, its HORRIBLE! >>
91% is a genuinely fair offer.
If they buy a 1/10 oz AGE at $80, and sell at $105, what do they make? $25... that's not too much. And what if gold goes down?
They have to support themselves too. >>
No disrespect intended, but either you live in a one shop town, or you dont understand the PM market. We arent talking about apples or toothpaste. On those items, merchants will realize 20-25% profits. On bullion however, and any large dealers correct me if im wrong, 6-13% is about the norm profit margin. Trust me on this. Any metals broker, or large coin shop worth their salt will take in bullion at about 95-97% back of spot, and move it out at 3-8% over spot. Those are industry standard spreads here in Chicago. Anything larger than that is just a rip joint. >>
Not everyone is a significant player in the precious metals market, and therefore not everyone can pay what you believe to be a fair offer.
If 95% is your idea of fair, how can 91% be "HORRIBLE"? For someone whose probably not a major dealer in metals, buying gold at very high and arguably unstable gold price, 4% is not a substantial differentiation. >>
Go in and tell your boss you want a 4% pay cut tomorrow, then tell me its not "significant". I wouldnt even sell at 95% of spot FYI. 97% is fair, 95% is bare minimum of what might even be considered acceptable.
<< <i>I try to buy at about 10% back on 1/10 oz & maybe 5-7% on 1 oz. We sell at about 3-5% over spot.
The bullion thing is an evil that most shop do because they have to, not because they want to. On more than one occasion after a big price drop, we've pulled the gold & silver and let the market recover. >>
Thats a very interesting factoid coming from an actual shop owner. Everywhere I have EVER gone to buy AGE's, the 1/10th size always carries a higher premium % over melt than a similar quantity of gold in non-fractional sizes. For example, I might pay, at $900 spot, $1900 for 2 AGE 1oz coins. But ask for 20 tenths instead, and my cost is much higher than $1900. I find it interesting that you pay less on tenths than ones.....but I bet you charge more as expressed as a % over melt on the tenths, dont you?
<< <i>makes sense to me that there would be a larger premium for the added bookkeeping and inventory of dealing with 20 pieces instead of 2 >>
Which is exactly why the "buy" price should be higher as well. Don't ask more of a premium for a 1/10 OZ piece then offer to buy them farther back of spot than you would on a 1 oz piece.
Minnie Minoso Master and Basic
1967 Topps PSA 8+
1960's Topps run Mega Set
"For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
<< <i>
<< <i>I try to buy at about 10% back on 1/10 oz & maybe 5-7% on 1 oz. We sell at about 3-5% over spot.
The bullion thing is an evil that most shop do because they have to, not because they want to. On more than one occasion after a big price drop, we've pulled the gold & silver and let the market recover. >>
Thats a very interesting factoid coming from an actual shop owner. Everywhere I have EVER gone to buy AGE's, the 1/10th size always carries a higher premium % over melt than a similar quantity of gold in non-fractional sizes. For example, I might pay, at $900 spot, $1900 for 2 AGE 1oz coins. But ask for 20 tenths instead, and my cost is much higher than $1900. I find it interesting that you pay less on tenths than ones.....but I bet you charge more as expressed as a % over melt on the tenths, dont you? >>
1/10 oz pieces carry a premium because they are used heavily in things like jewelry, or as gifts.
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<< <i>By the way, 91% isnt bad, its HORRIBLE! >>
91% is a genuinely fair offer.
If they buy a 1/10 oz AGE at $80, and sell at $105, what do they make? $25... that's not too much. And what if gold goes down?
They have to support themselves too. >>
No disrespect intended, but either you live in a one shop town, or you dont understand the PM market. We arent talking about apples or toothpaste. On those items, merchants will realize 20-25% profits. On bullion however, and any large dealers correct me if im wrong, 6-13% is about the norm profit margin. Trust me on this. Any metals broker, or large coin shop worth their salt will take in bullion at about 95-97% back of spot, and move it out at 3-8% over spot. Those are industry standard spreads here in Chicago. Anything larger than that is just a rip joint. >>
Not everyone is a significant player in the precious metals market, and therefore not everyone can pay what you believe to be a fair offer.
If 95% is your idea of fair, how can 91% be "HORRIBLE"? For someone whose probably not a major dealer in metals, buying gold at very high and arguably unstable gold price, 4% is not a substantial differentiation. >>
Go in and tell your boss you want a 4% pay cut tomorrow, then tell me its not "significant". I wouldnt even sell at 95% of spot FYI. 97% is fair, 95% is bare minimum of what might even be considered acceptable. >>
So stop whining. Go sell them where you want and ask the price you want. There are plenty of other venues. Dealers quote you a price, but they're not forcing you to take it. Don't come here and post about how outrageous something is, and then refuse to take into consideration anyone elses opinions.
They're in this business to make money.
But is there a difference between that, and what collectors do cherry-picking at a dealers table at a show, or running across a "rip" at a garage sale?
I think margins and the ethics invloved are something that cuts both ways in this hobby. You win some and you lose some, But that's JMO.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Would you believe that a south suburban pawn shop offered me $75 each? Another one offered 91% of spot. Are there that many stupid/desperate people out there with coins like these who sell so cheaply as to allow these pawn shops to offer such insultingly low bids? >>
Pawn shops typically pay only 50% to 70% of spot on gold items. By law, they have to hold these items 10 to 90 days before they can resell them. This is a high risk transaction, because if the police say
the coin matches the description of a coin reported stolen, it will be seized with no payment to the shop owner.
Many cities still force coin shops to register as pawn shops or junk dealers.
<< <i>I find it interesting that you pay less on tenths than ones.....but I bet you charge more as expressed as a % over melt on the tenths, dont you? >>
Costs a dealer more in his time to buy ten 1/10 oz coins than one 1 oz coin. Each coin has to be looked at, possibly weighed (gold plated fakes exist), separated out for those that can be resold and those that are scrapped (ex jewelry, mishandled, etc)
Then if they are sold one at a time, it takes the dealer ten times as much of his time to sell them as it does to sell a single one oz coin.
<< <i>
<< <i>I find it interesting that you pay less on tenths than ones.....but I bet you charge more as expressed as a % over melt on the tenths, dont you? >>
Costs a dealer more in his time to buy ten 1/10 oz coins than one 1 oz coin. Each coin has to be looked at, possibly weighed (gold plated fakes exist), separated out for those that can be resold and those that are scrapped (ex jewelry, mishandled, etc)
Then if they are sold one at a time, it takes the dealer ten times as much of his time to sell them as it does to sell a single one oz coin. >>
So pay less, and charge more is the theme for dealers of tenth ounce sizes?
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<< <i>
<< <i>By the way, 91% isnt bad, its HORRIBLE! >>
91% is a genuinely fair offer.
If they buy a 1/10 oz AGE at $80, and sell at $105, what do they make? $25... that's not too much. And what if gold goes down?
They have to support themselves too. >>
No disrespect intended, but either you live in a one shop town, or you dont understand the PM market. We arent talking about apples or toothpaste. On those items, merchants will realize 20-25% profits. On bullion however, and any large dealers correct me if im wrong, 6-13% is about the norm profit margin. Trust me on this. Any metals broker, or large coin shop worth their salt will take in bullion at about 95-97% back of spot, and move it out at 3-8% over spot. Those are industry standard spreads here in Chicago. Anything larger than that is just a rip joint. >>
Depends a lot on how many you have to offer. The first question my PM dealer asked me was how many gold eagles I had and their price was based on that. If the dealer has a buyer willing to pay for a large quantity he can afford to cut the margin closer to you as a seller. I suspect that most PM dealers have some type of arrangement with the big boys such as Dillon Gage which may insulate them from the market fluctuations that a pawn shop would have to deal with if the price of gold dropped unexpectedly.
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<< <i>I don't know what the laws are now but years ago it was required that these items be held for 30 days and item lists had to be sent to the local police depts.... If the item turns up stolen there is the cost of recovery ( if you can recover anything ) the time to testify in court... all this has to be included in the cost of doing business..
This is kinda like figuring in auction costs when your bidding on coins... if the juice is 20% do you bid the value if the coin or the value- 20% ... suppose a private individual sells the same coin for 5% less than the total cost from the auction house is the auction house a crook for charging more ( they have catalogs, B&M, payroll, advertising ect.. I'm not saying there aren't crooks running pawn shops but they don't always have the freedom to manage inventory that private individuals do. >>
"these items"? Maybe I need a more powerful loupe, but I havent noticed any serial numbers on 1/10th AGE's. Where is that located? On the rim? >>
Actually pawn shop rules and laws may well be different than for PM dealers. Abuses have led to anti-fencing regulations in some areas and I doubt that the rules distinguish between goods acquired with or without serial numbers.
<< <i>
So pay less, and charge more is the theme for dealers of tenth ounce sizes? >>
There is cost of every incoming and outgoing transaction in ANY business for ANY class of items.
If those costs are not covered by a lower buying price or a higher selling price, that means you are subsidizing that product line with your other sales.