You guys need a reality check ... there's a HUGE difference between one or several AT coins getting into holders, and 1400 highly publicized coins ... do you think it didn't occur to NGC to verify the authenticity (including the color) and origin of the coins? NGC issued press releases and publicized the slabbing of these coins because of their color ... do you think they failed to consider the possibility that the color was not authentic? Yeah, there's definitely something to laugh at here ...
By the way, are either of you two specialists or dealers in toned Morgans? No? I didn't think so. How many of your untoned coins are articificially white as the result of chemical treament, dipping, and surface alteration?
And by the way, specialists, for the most part, don't need slabs to form an opinion regarding the authenticity of color. Those who know toned Morgans would have been equally convinced of the special nature of these coins raw or slabbed.
For the record, if anyone can prove me wrong and prove that these coins were AT, go ahead. I am never too proud to stand corrected. But I want hard evidence, not the mere opinions of those less qualified to judge than NGC, Superior, Mike DeFalco, Larry Shepherd, and I and my fellow toned Morgan specialist collectors.
I personally don't own any BC Morgans, but I have seen a few of them here and there. There was nothing that said blatant AT to me. I also have some nicely toned Morgans for almost 15 years in PCGS and NGC slabs, and NONE of them have changed color.
The only changes of color I've seen on my toned coins is when my photography skills got better.
Obviously, by discussing the origin of the coins with the submitter. It's no coincidence that NGC had photos of the bags and the lead seals. They undoubtedly wanted proof of the coins' legitimate origins before committing their name and a marketing campaign to the 1400-coin group. One of the NGC graders has said privately that they "satisfied themselves" that the coins were the real deal. This was only after I attacked NGC for giving the star designation to all the coins, and accused them of cutting a deal on the star. (Don't think I wasn't also asking questions ... ) In their own defense, they explained to me, as mentioned prior in this thread, that any coins that didn't "star" were cut out of the group. That's how the group ended up all starred. Personally, I still thought they were way too generous with the star on this group. So I made other noise ... in the end, I was assured that they had checked out the deal.
I think a lot of the controversy on these is the main dealer that marketed these coins was saying on this very board something to the effect...... if you want completely original bag toned Morgans, NGC plucked the Battle Creek Morgans right from the bag. They indeed showed pictures. OK, so the main guy that bought all the big coins, marketed them, been in the business for decades says..... NGC plucked them right from the bag. We later find out they were submitted in tubes? I can see why many are a bit skeptical on these. BTW, I know the dealer I speak of, I get along fine with him, or at least I used to. Now, I see these bags are being brought up as some kinda proof, when I thought the coins were submitted in tubes. Maybe, this is why folks wonder so much on this group? Full disclosure, I am not an expert on toned Morgans, I am not a dealer of toned Morgans. I collected them and studied and enjoyed them for quite some time though.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
The same cannot be said for copper coins - is there some documented circumstance under which a hoard of purple or blue coppers was created? I think not.
Sunnywood, the Prosky hoard of proof IHCs is quite well known for colorful toning. I believe there is a short essay on this on Rick Snow's website. Or you could just search the net for additional info.
And Walter Breen and others have stated that matte proof Lincolns are commonly found vibrantly toned. I have searched auction records going back over 30 years and many MPLs were described as having violet and blue toning.
For the record, if anyone can prove me wrong and prove that these coins were AT, go ahead. I am never too proud to stand corrected. But I want hard evidence, not the mere opinions of those less qualified to judge than NGC, Superior, Mike DeFalco, Larry Shepherd, and I and my fellow toned Morgan specialist collectors. >>
However hard it would be to prove them AT (I'm not implying anything), it would be equally hard to prove them NT. Their legitimacy is fuzzy.
I think that's the only conclusion that's going to be reached here.
First, he had the coins certified by one of the top numismatic authentication companies in the world - NGC. That alone should strongly raise a presumption of authenticity. Do you really think NGC would risk their entire business by falsely certifying 1400 AT coins
And NGC (and PCGS) has slabbed hundreds of AT copper coins. Should that strongly raise a presumption of authenticity?
GoldenEye, quite right ... proving anything either way would be difficult, unless you were standing there when the bags were unsealed for the first time in 80 years. However, it would be equally difficult to "prove" that any older coin has not been messed with. So, instead of proof, I'll rely on the collective wisdom and judgment of the fellow collectors and dealers whom i know and trust, who together have many many decades of experience in the specific area of toned Morgans ... and we, collectively, believe the coins to be NT.
cohodk ... yes, I'll take your point on the AT copper. ditto for the "Nicked" Buffs that fooled the services for a long time. But I still maintain that a much higher degree of scrutiny was placed on the BC coins because of the fact that 1400 were submitted all at once (actually more, if you include those that were not awarded the star designation, plus those that were not toned), and that NGC offered press releases and heralded the slabbing of the collection as an event. NGC would have been completely out of their minds not to have checked out the deal before going public in a major way with the releases - which focused on the color of the coins, and their origins from sealed original bags. Really, whatever you think of NGC, you can't think they are that stupid. (And for those of you who will inevitably reply that they are, then basically we can all discount slabs altogether, and collect raw coins on their own merits ... and I for one would still have found the raw BC coins to be of very high interest. But honestly, it amazes me how often collectors think they know more than the top grading services. That is truly laughable.)
Yet another thread on the battle creeks......should I be suprised ........looks like it's going to be the area 51 of coin collecting with folks continuing to crawl out of the woodwork to say the coins are unquestionably AT and that as their coins darkened in the coming decades they saw an image of the virgin Mary in lady Liberty's hair.....
<< <i>Do you really think NGC would risk their entire business by falsely certifying 1400 AT coins? >>
Did NGC certify these coins as NT or not AT? I'm not aware of the top TPGs certifying coins as NT or AT.
I am aware the top TPGs certify many MA coins per their policies. It seems if NGC deemed them to be MA, there was no need to make further distinction on NT vs. AT from a certification perspective.
It seems less controversial to say these coins are MA as opposed to AT or NT.
<< <i>it amazes me how often collectors think they know more than the top grading services. >>
Is it just as amazing to see the strength of conviction people can reach in the absence of evidence?
why is it that while those who tend to feel the coins are AT question the circumstances and origin of the coins, while those who feel the coins are NT tend to want to impign the integrity of any who disagree with them??? that to me is disconcerting. my view is that this whole thing is all about marketing, personal integrity and large financial involvement for several collectors/dealers and organizations such as NGC/Superior. we just need to "trust" these experts. the trouble is that we've all been fooled before. Mr. DeFalco's angst is a bit insulting to me. these big dealers and self-acknowledged experts are as much the problem as they are the solution, giving us names and information when it seems to serve their purpose and withholding the same when it accomplishes the same result.
keets, if I had no experience in a collecting discipline that you specialized in, yet I came along and declared some or all of your coins to be of questionable origin and value (despite evidence to the contrary, including the opinions of specialists, respected dealers, a top grading and authentication service, and an auction house), I think you would have every right to jump to the defense of your collection, and dismiss my opinions as having little merit. You would be right to do so.
P.S. I think we should put the question to Mark Salzberg, and see what he has to say about it.
I am aware the top TPGs certify many MA coins per their policies. It seems if NGC deemed them to be MA, there was no need to make further distinction on NT vs. AT from a certification perspective...
I really did not want get into the AT vs. NT question, but I thought that it would be interesting to crack the coin out of the holder and send it along to PCGS with another submission. Alternatively, or additionally, it could be sent to NGC (though I do not plan to submit coins to NGC in the future). Of course, this does not prove anything. Market acceptability is very subjective, changes over time, and may be independent of AT or NT. Even AT versus NT is a tough call to make, with narrow absolutes at either end of the spectrum and a large gray area between.
First, he had the coins certified by one of the top numismatic authentication companies in the world - NGC. That alone should strongly raise a presumption of authenticity. Do you really think NGC would risk their entire business by falsely certifying 1400 AT coins? Nonsense.
I generally agree with this. NGC would not knowingly holder a large number of AT coins, and there is a big difference between slipping one or two coins through under the radar and showing up with a bag of 1400 colorful coins. I imagine that the scrutiny would have been considerably greater than if a small collector/submitter like me submitted a colorful coin or two. However, a big deal and the concomitant marketing opportunity may have influenced them to some degree--it's human nature. Furthermore, the line of market acceptability is not fixed, and we have all read this chapter before.
Along a similar vein, the personal taste of a collector may change, too. What was once deemed by me to be "attractive", when viewed at a different time and circumstances (lighting, mood, other coins recently viewed) can be judged to be not attractive. I am sure that we all have had those "what was I thinking when I purchased that coin?" moments.
I am going to put the coin back into my son's shoe box and put the issue to rest for now. I will make a point of viewing the coin in another year or so and see if I feel any differently about it.
RYK, why don't you take pix of the coin under controlled and repeatable conditions, and do the same six months from now, and a year from now, and post the results here? I would be very interested to see any actual evidence of coins fading, darkening, or changing color. (I hope this doesn't inspire any of the jokers here to start fading the coins in Photoshop, which is easy to do.)
I have not intended to question the integrity of anyone in this thread - only to guard against the popular tide of innuendo and baseless rumor in the face of the opinions of specialists, dealers, a top grading and authentication service, and an auction house. I have never believed in mob rule. I do believe in the truth, however. If anyone can sway my opinion as to the truth, I will always listen. I would love to get a statement out of NGC regarding these coins.
The real problem here is that many folks seem to presume that the coins are AT merely because they are spectacularly colorful. However, if one pursues, studies and collect toned Morgans over a period of many years, one learns that there are indeed spectacularly colorful toned Morgans out there that came straight out of Mint bags. When one has seen enough of these, and can recognize their hallmarks, then the Battle Creek coins look very much more authentic.
I would like to educate collectors to the fact that, particularly in the area of Morgans, there are indeed legitimate naturally and outrageously toned coins out there. While AT coins are a problem, and there is a big incentive to try to create them, the evil doctors have failed thus far to replicate some of the readily identifiable natural toning patterns that occur on bag-toned Morgans. Despite questions about AT coins, it is possible to collect beautiful, natural, outrageously toned Morgans, and that is the point worth defending.
<< <i>I am aware the top TPGs certify many MA coins per their policies. It seems if NGC deemed them to be MA, there was no need to make further distinction on NT vs. AT from a certification perspective...
I really did not want get into the AT vs. NT question, but I thought that it would be interesting to crack the coin out of the holder and send it along to PCGS with another submission. Alternatively, or additionally, it could be sent to NGC (though I do not plan to submit coins to NGC in the future). Of course, this does not prove anything. Market acceptability is very subjective, changes over time, and may be independent of AT or NT. Even AT versus NT is a tough call to make, with narrow absolutes at either end of the spectrum and a large gray area between.
First, he had the coins certified by one of the top numismatic authentication companies in the world - NGC. That alone should strongly raise a presumption of authenticity. Do you really think NGC would risk their entire business by falsely certifying 1400 AT coins? Nonsense.
I generally agree with this. NGC would not knowingly holder a large number of AT coins, and there is a big difference between slipping one or two coins through under the radar and showing up with a bag of 1400 colorful coins. I imagine that the scrutiny would have been considerably greater than if a small collector/submitter like me submitted a colorful coin or two. However, a big deal and the concomitant marketing opportunity may have influenced them to some degree--it's human nature. Furthermore, the line of market acceptability is not fixed, and we have all read this chapter before.
Along a similar vein, the personal taste of a collector may change, too. What was once deemed by me to be "attractive", when viewed at a different time and circumstances (lighting, mood, other coins recently viewed) can be judged to be not attractive. I am sure that we all have had those "what was I thinking when I purchased that coin?" moments.
I am going to put the coin back into my son's shoe box and put the issue to rest for now. I will make a point of viewing the coin in another year or so and see if I feel any differently about it. >>
I have cracked lots of toned Morgans out of ICG and NGC slabs and have submitted them to PCGS and never had even one fail to slab there, most at the same grade, a few higher and a couple lower so I'd say that you are wasting your time and $$$ cracking it and sending it anywhere. Were I you I would have it photo-ed under known conditions [with a witness] and repeated every 6 months.
looks like it's going to be the area 51 of coin collecting with folks continuing to crawl out of the woodwork to say the coins are unquestionably AT and that as their coins darkened in the coming decades they saw an image of the virgin Mary in lady Liberty's hair.....
look, it's comments like the one above that are really ridiculous. the whole discussion grew from a collector saying he thought one of his two coins seemed less intense while the other appeared unchanged and naturally the old suspicion was revived. Sunnywood, you seem to get back to the same defensive position that rests on some special qualification to judge tone on a Morgan, as though being a Morgan specialist is a requirement. i don't necessarily agree with that just as i don't agree with the assertions of the "experts" that their opinions need to be trusted. perhaps that was a certainty in the past, but times have changed, information has been disemminated and we are all a bit wiser.
NGC has been fooled to an embarrassing degree and, along with PCGS, recently took steps to combat things by issuing it's statement to dealers. by your own admission this group of coins was unprecedented. by the admission of most prominent dealers and by the pre-emminent grading services the proponents of AT are ahead of the detection ability, creating coins which fool us all. again, why would i trust the experts?? i have seen no forum member, no dealer, no organization and no grading service without some bias or self-interest in these coins come forward to endorse them. maybe that has happened and i haven't seen it, but it would probably be reassuring to everyone, seeing as there is so much self-serving secrecy offered by those who would be most adversely affected by anything negative about the BC's.
i don't know one way or the other but i suspect AT more than i accept NT.
RYK, why don't you take pix of the coin under controlled and repeatable conditions, and do the same six months from now, and a year from now, and post the results here? I would be very interested to see any actual evidence of coins fading, darkening, or changing color. (I hope this doesn't inspire any of the jokers here to start fading the coins in Photoshop, which is easy to do.)
I stink at coin imaging, but if you are comfortable and have the photography skills and equipment, I would be happy to send the coin to you to keep for the next couple years and you can photograph the coin under controlled circumstances. Alternatively, perhaps Russ or Mark Goodman would be willing to take on this task.
My son might require some compensation, and there were some really nice toned Morgans at Dennis King's table at the St. Louis show on Friday...
Whoa. I've been away for a few days, and this thread is closing in on 200!
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
RYK, To address your original inquiry about your coin.........while not common, it's very possible for original bag toned coins to change in appearance or intensity a little bit over time after changing environments or holders or other various circumstances, so your eyes and memory are most likely correct as well as the coin being a good one. I've seen this happen before on colored Morgans who's originality was beyond a doubt including at least one coin I've owned long term from the Continental Hoard. It's also not uncommon for 100% original older copper coins to lose a bit of intensity in lustre or color or possibly even develop spots or other problems after being holdered or changing environments after long term storage in an original roll or whatever.
The reasons this may happen to brightly colored original toned silver coins could be but is not limited to trace amounts of moisture or other various contaminants on the surface or rim including skin oils from being handled, trace amounts of pollutants in the air inside the holder, trace amounts of various chemicals or impurities in the holder material itself, the holder not being airtight allowing oxygen exchange, actual storage conditions of the holder including heat or humidity, etc.
Regarding the holders themselves, it's also now common knowledge that NGC had a big issue with their older holders in the past (the thick ones and before) where there was something in the white plastic inserts that caused silver coins to tone inside the holders. This is self evident on 1000's of Morgan dollars in older NGC holders where the coins routinely develop toning after being inside these holders for a number of years, typically with various browns/rust colors and burnt gold colors near the rims and also splotches of gunmetal blues going inwards. In fact, it's very unusual to see an untoned, lusterous, blast white Morgan in an older thick NGC holder, although this seemed to have stopped happening after NGC switched to the newer thinner type holders. I've also seen quite a few Morgans in the old first generation PCGS rattler holders that have lost their intensity of lustre somewhat over time and now appear to have a slightly dull greyish cast to their surfaces making the coins look a lot less flashy, possibly due to long term air exposure and those holders not being airtight. I've also personally experienced this happen to high grade flashy white Morgans from original bags I purchased from Superiors Club Cal-Neva Sale back in the mid 80's and subsequently submitted to PCGS in 1986-87. These were 1000% original coins that were found in mint bags in the vaults of the Club Cal-Neva Casino and auctioned by Superior.
In any case, a small minority of original toned coins can and do change in appearance slightly over time depending on all kinds of things as outlined above, and that's not even remotely proof that the coin is not original or has been messed with somehow. The key word however is 'slightly', whereas obvious AT'd silver coins can and sometimes do change dramatically over time and typically will turn much darker (golds to dark browns, etc) and/or develop black spots and become splotchy and dramatically different in appearance.
I hope this clears a few things up......well maybe :-)
Cept it doesn't explain why one of two coins probably handled pretty much the same way and slabbed in the same type of slab apparently changed while the other did not. How can you explain one and not the other? Same way with the milk spotted ASEs; how do you explain the unspotted ones?
Sensitive because some people have a lot of $$$ invested in Battle Creek toners and they are understandably touchy about hints they are anything but 100% legit.
Having said that, this thread alone hasn't helped BC values........while many good points have been made on both sides I doubt a reading of this thread would make you more likely to buy a BC. Won't make you sell the ones you have but my impression is some of the people on the sidelines are more likely to stay there then they are likely to move to the buy side.
Since its well know that red color in paint, pictures and print tends to wash out when exposed to direct light does anyone know if red color in toned coins is effected by direct light??
<< <i>RYK, To address your original inquiry about your coin.........while not common, it's very possible for original bag toned coins to change in appearance or intensity a little bit over time after changing environments or holders or other various circumstances, so your eyes and memory are most likely correct as well as the coin being a good one. I've seen this happen before on colored Morgans who's originality was beyond a doubt including at least one coin I've owned long term from the Continental Hoard. It's also not uncommon for 100% original older copper coins to lose a bit of intensity in lustre or color or possibly even develop spots or other problems after being holdered or changing environments after long term storage in an original roll or whatever.
The reasons this may happen to brightly colored original toned silver coins could be but is not limited to trace amounts of moisture or other various contaminants on the surface or rim including skin oils from being handled, trace amounts of pollutants in the air inside the holder, trace amounts of various chemicals or impurities in the holder material itself, the holder not being airtight allowing oxygen exchange, actual storage conditions of the holder including heat or humidity, etc.
Regarding the holders themselves, it's also now common knowledge that NGC had a big issue with their older holders in the past (the thick ones and before) where there was something in the white plastic inserts that caused silver coins to tone inside the holders. This is self evident on 1000's of Morgan dollars in older NGC holders where the coins routinely develop toning after being inside these holders for a number of years, typically with various browns/rust colors and burnt gold colors near the rims and also splotches of gunmetal blues going inwards. In fact, it's very unusual to see an untoned, lusterous, blast white Morgan in an older thick NGC holder, although this seemed to have stopped happening after NGC switched to the newer thinner type holders. I've also seen quite a few Morgans in the old first generation PCGS rattler holders that have lost their intensity of lustre somewhat over time and now appear to have a slightly dull greyish cast to their surfaces making the coins look a lot less flashy, possibly due to long term air exposure and those holders not being airtight. I've also personally experienced this happen to high grade flashy white Morgans from original bags I purchased from Superiors Club Cal-Neva Sale back in the mid 80's and subsequently submitted to PCGS in 1986-87. These were 1000% original coins that were found in mint bags in the vaults of the Club Cal-Neva Casino and auctioned by Superior.
In any case, a small minority of original toned coins can and do change in appearance slightly over time depending on all kinds of things as outlined above, and that's not even remotely proof that the coin is not original or has been messed with somehow. The key word however is 'slightly', whereas obvious AT'd silver coins can and sometimes do change dramatically over time and typically will turn much darker (golds to dark browns, etc) and/or develop black spots and become splotchy and dramatically different in appearance.
I hope this clears a few things up......well maybe :-) >>
This is one of the best posts of the thread by a long time collector of quality Morgan dollars.I know because i have bought always nice Morgans from him in the past,and i dont believe that he owns any BC coins,though i am not sure.What i am sure about is that just like stock chat boards,people spreading FUD,fear,uncertainty,and doubt,without any backup or factual information are doing it for their own benefit.If a market for anything is helped or hurt by baseless assaults on any kind of area of numismatics,its probably because somebody is looking to profit from the FUD created.
Great coins are not cheap,and cheap coins are not great!
<< <i>Since its well know that red color in paint, pictures and print tends to wash out when exposed to direct light does anyone know if red color in toned coins is effected by direct light?? >>
I highly doubt that its affected [not effected] at all by direct light since its supposedly the same substance which produces the other colors seen on toned coins, but just reflects the light differently.
it would be very interesting if another multi-bag "collection" appears sometime in the future... same common dates in 63 and 64, same murky and secret ownership record of the bags with alleged "connections" to another famous group of bags, same witnesses saying they saw them opened, and the coins even more spectacular: brigher and more splendid and vibrant colors, proper color progression and smooth transitions, gorgeous bands of color and convincing crescents, and now, new and improved, even more colorfast! Guaranteed not to fade!
Keets,This subject has been brought up about 5 or 6 times since the BC collection was sold.I was not and am not accusing anyone with the exception of fanofcoins with blatant B.S.I do believe that Dragons post may have been the best possible answer as the white plastic has changed the color of some coins over the years and i do believe that when any market goes up or down,people profit on both ends.Just my opinion.Thanks
Great coins are not cheap,and cheap coins are not great!
<< <i>it would be very interesting if another multi-bag "collection" appears sometime in the future... same common dates in 63 and 64, same murky and secret ownership record of the bags with alleged "connections" to another famous group of bags, same witnesses saying they saw them opened, and the coins even more spectacular: brigher and more splendid and vibrant colors, proper color progression and smooth transitions, gorgeous bands of color and convincing crescents, and now, new and improved, even more colorfast! Guaranteed not to fade! >>
<< <i>Keets,This subject has been brought up about 5 or 6 times since the BC collection was sold.I was not and am not accusing anyone with the exception of fanofcoins with blatant B.S.I do believe that Dragons post may have been the best possible answer as the white plastic has changed the color of some coins over the years and i do believe that when any market goes up or down,people profit on both ends.Just my opinion.Thanks >>
Not sure those old holders have much to do with the BC coins. I'd guess that both of RYK's coins were treated pretty much the same after opening the bag so any differences seen are likely not attributable to that.
Not just in regards to the BC Morgan situation, but in general....
Hypothetically speaking.....
Not singling out these beautiful coins....
Would the results have been any different if I submitted those 1400 coins without any fanfare or drum roll? Would I have gotten them slabbed let alone received the star?
What i am sure about is that just like stock chat boards,people spreading FUD,fear,uncertainty,and doubt,without any backup or factual information are doing it for their own benefit.If a market for anything is helped or hurt by baseless assaults on any kind of area of numismatics,its probably because somebody is looking to profit from the FUD created.
I have never been one motivated by profit in the numismatic arena, and my experience and discussions in the past here would confirm this. There is no way I know to short a Battle Creek Morgan, so I do not see how anyone could profit by spreading FUD.
190 posts to this thread and I killed it with my above post....
<< <i>This thread is being discussed ATS as well. Link >>
Of course it is....the people that were banned here keep a good eye on this place and love to post threads with links to here. Not much else to do most of the time
<< <i>This thread is being discussed ATS as well. Link >>
Of course it is....the people that were banned here keep a good eye on this place and love to post threads with links to here. Not much else to do most of the time >>
Just thought I'd try a post to make sure I'm still here. 197
<< <i>looks like it's going to be the area 51 of coin collecting with folks continuing to crawl out of the woodwork to say the coins are unquestionably AT and that as their coins darkened in the coming decades they saw an image of the virgin Mary in lady Liberty's hair.....
look, it's comments like the one above that are really ridiculous. the whole discussion grew from a collector saying he thought one of his two coins seemed less intense while the other appeared unchanged and naturally the old suspicion was revived. Sunnywood, you seem to get back to the same defensive position that rests on some special qualification to judge tone on a Morgan, as though being a Morgan specialist is a requirement. i don't necessarily agree with that just as i don't agree with the assertions of the "experts" that their opinions need to be trusted. perhaps that was a certainty in the past, but times have changed, information has been disemminated and we are all a bit wiser.
NGC has been fooled to an embarrassing degree and, along with PCGS, recently took steps to combat things by issuing it's statement to dealers. by your own admission this group of coins was unprecedented. by the admission of most prominent dealers and by the pre-emminent grading services the proponents of AT are ahead of the detection ability, creating coins which fool us all. again, why would i trust the experts?? i have seen no forum member, no dealer, no organization and no grading service without some bias or self-interest in these coins come forward to endorse them. maybe that has happened and i haven't seen it, but it would probably be reassuring to everyone, seeing as there is so much self-serving secrecy offered by those who would be most adversely affected by anything negative about the BC's.
i don't know one way or the other but i suspect AT more than i accept NT. >>
You found my comment to be rediculous which was exactly my point...........what exactly are you adding to this discussion? I am trying to make lite of the fact that toned coins keep getting thrown under the bus with no proof............the original poster asked a valid question to see if anyone had seen the same as him....no argument with that. When the thread starts to take a turn into the AT relm then I think making rediculous comments as I did have about as much merit as most of the rest of the BS being posted.
(edited to add --- I just wanted to get to do that ...and that is all I have to say on the subject. That's my story and I'm sticking to it...)
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
Comments
By the way, are either of you two specialists or dealers in toned Morgans? No? I didn't think so. How many of your untoned coins are articificially white as the result of chemical treament, dipping, and surface alteration?
And by the way, specialists, for the most part, don't need slabs to form an opinion regarding the authenticity of color. Those who know toned Morgans would have been equally convinced of the special nature of these coins raw or slabbed.
For the record, if anyone can prove me wrong and prove that these coins were AT, go ahead. I am never too proud to stand corrected. But I want hard evidence, not the mere opinions of those less qualified to judge than NGC, Superior, Mike DeFalco, Larry Shepherd, and I and my fellow toned Morgan specialist collectors.
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
How do you "verify the authenticity (including the color) " ?
The only changes of color I've seen on my toned coins is when my photography skills got better.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
Looks like some people are really putting on the gloves for the next round on this one....
(btw...I have white, and toned, morgans. I like both. Must be something wrong with me
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
original bag toned Morgans, NGC plucked the Battle Creek Morgans right from the bag. They indeed showed pictures. OK, so the main guy that bought all the big coins, marketed them, been in the business for decades says..... NGC plucked them right from the bag. We later find out they were submitted in tubes? I can see why many are
a bit skeptical on these. BTW, I know the dealer I speak of, I get along fine with him, or at least I used to
Sunnywood, the Prosky hoard of proof IHCs is quite well known for colorful toning. I believe there is a short essay on this on Rick Snow's website. Or you could just search the net for additional info.
And Walter Breen and others have stated that matte proof Lincolns are commonly found vibrantly toned. I have searched auction records going back over 30 years and many MPLs were described as having violet and blue toning.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>
For the record, if anyone can prove me wrong and prove that these coins were AT, go ahead. I am never too proud to stand corrected. But I want hard evidence, not the mere opinions of those less qualified to judge than NGC, Superior, Mike DeFalco, Larry Shepherd, and I and my fellow toned Morgan specialist collectors. >>
However hard it would be to prove them AT (I'm not implying anything), it would be equally hard to prove them NT. Their legitimacy is fuzzy.
I think that's the only conclusion that's going to be reached here.
And NGC (and PCGS) has slabbed hundreds of AT copper coins. Should that strongly raise a presumption of authenticity?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
cohodk ... yes, I'll take your point on the AT copper. ditto for the "Nicked" Buffs that fooled the services for a long time. But I still maintain that a much higher degree of scrutiny was placed on the BC coins because of the fact that 1400 were submitted all at once (actually more, if you include those that were not awarded the star designation, plus those that were not toned), and that NGC offered press releases and heralded the slabbing of the collection as an event. NGC would have been completely out of their minds not to have checked out the deal before going public in a major way with the releases - which focused on the color of the coins, and their origins from sealed original bags. Really, whatever you think of NGC, you can't think they are that stupid. (And for those of you who will inevitably reply that they are, then basically we can all discount slabs altogether, and collect raw coins on their own merits ... and I for one would still have found the raw BC coins to be of very high interest. But honestly, it amazes me how often collectors think they know more than the top grading services. That is truly laughable.)
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
Sure seems to get folks mighty
touchy just discussing the topic.
It kinda makes a person wonder why?
Camelot
dont have a dog in this fight but finding it very educational
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Do you really think NGC would risk their entire business by falsely certifying 1400 AT coins? >>
Did NGC certify these coins as NT or not AT? I'm not aware of the top TPGs certifying coins as NT or AT.
I am aware the top TPGs certify many MA coins per their policies. It seems if NGC deemed them to be MA, there was no need to make further distinction on NT vs. AT from a certification perspective.
It seems less controversial to say these coins are MA as opposed to AT or NT.
<< <i>it amazes me how often collectors think they know more than the top grading services. >>
Is it just as amazing to see the strength of conviction people can reach in the absence of evidence?
P.S. I think we should put the question to Mark Salzberg, and see what he has to say about it.
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
I really did not want get into the AT vs. NT question, but I thought that it would be interesting to crack the coin out of the holder and send it along to PCGS with another submission. Alternatively, or additionally, it could be sent to NGC (though I do not plan to submit coins to NGC in the future). Of course, this does not prove anything. Market acceptability is very subjective, changes over time, and may be independent of AT or NT. Even AT versus NT is a tough call to make, with narrow absolutes at either end of the spectrum and a large gray area between.
First, he had the coins certified by one of the top numismatic authentication companies in the world - NGC. That alone should strongly raise a presumption of authenticity. Do you really think NGC would risk their entire business by falsely certifying 1400 AT coins? Nonsense.
I generally agree with this. NGC would not knowingly holder a large number of AT coins, and there is a big difference between slipping one or two coins through under the radar and showing up with a bag of 1400 colorful coins. I imagine that the scrutiny would have been considerably greater than if a small collector/submitter like me submitted a colorful coin or two. However, a big deal and the concomitant marketing opportunity may have influenced them to some degree--it's human nature. Furthermore, the line of market acceptability is not fixed, and we have all read this chapter before.
Along a similar vein, the personal taste of a collector may change, too. What was once deemed by me to be "attractive", when viewed at a different time and circumstances (lighting, mood, other coins recently viewed) can be judged to be not attractive. I am sure that we all have had those "what was I thinking when I purchased that coin?" moments.
I am going to put the coin back into my son's shoe box and put the issue to rest for now. I will make a point of viewing the coin in another year or so and see if I feel any differently about it.
Shoe box? Why didn't you say so earlier? That explains everything!
I have not intended to question the integrity of anyone in this thread - only to guard against the popular tide of innuendo and baseless rumor in the face of the opinions of specialists, dealers, a top grading and authentication service, and an auction house. I have never believed in mob rule. I do believe in the truth, however. If anyone can sway my opinion as to the truth, I will always listen. I would love to get a statement out of NGC regarding these coins.
The real problem here is that many folks seem to presume that the coins are AT merely because they are spectacularly colorful. However, if one pursues, studies and collect toned Morgans over a period of many years, one learns that there are indeed spectacularly colorful toned Morgans out there that came straight out of Mint bags. When one has seen enough of these, and can recognize their hallmarks, then the Battle Creek coins look very much more authentic.
I would like to educate collectors to the fact that, particularly in the area of Morgans, there are indeed legitimate naturally and outrageously toned coins out there. While AT coins are a problem, and there is a big incentive to try to create them, the evil doctors have failed thus far to replicate some of the readily identifiable natural toning patterns that occur on bag-toned Morgans. Despite questions about AT coins, it is possible to collect beautiful, natural, outrageously toned Morgans, and that is the point worth defending.
This is my last post on this subject.
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>I am aware the top TPGs certify many MA coins per their policies. It seems if NGC deemed them to be MA, there was no need to make further distinction on NT vs. AT from a certification perspective...
I really did not want get into the AT vs. NT question, but I thought that it would be interesting to crack the coin out of the holder and send it along to PCGS with another submission. Alternatively, or additionally, it could be sent to NGC (though I do not plan to submit coins to NGC in the future). Of course, this does not prove anything. Market acceptability is very subjective, changes over time, and may be independent of AT or NT. Even AT versus NT is a tough call to make, with narrow absolutes at either end of the spectrum and a large gray area between.
First, he had the coins certified by one of the top numismatic authentication companies in the world - NGC. That alone should strongly raise a presumption of authenticity. Do you really think NGC would risk their entire business by falsely certifying 1400 AT coins? Nonsense.
I generally agree with this. NGC would not knowingly holder a large number of AT coins, and there is a big difference between slipping one or two coins through under the radar and showing up with a bag of 1400 colorful coins. I imagine that the scrutiny would have been considerably greater than if a small collector/submitter like me submitted a colorful coin or two. However, a big deal and the concomitant marketing opportunity may have influenced them to some degree--it's human nature. Furthermore, the line of market acceptability is not fixed, and we have all read this chapter before.
Along a similar vein, the personal taste of a collector may change, too. What was once deemed by me to be "attractive", when viewed at a different time and circumstances (lighting, mood, other coins recently viewed) can be judged to be not attractive. I am sure that we all have had those "what was I thinking when I purchased that coin?" moments.
I am going to put the coin back into my son's shoe box and put the issue to rest for now. I will make a point of viewing the coin in another year or so and see if I feel any differently about it. >>
I have cracked lots of toned Morgans out of ICG and NGC slabs and have submitted them to PCGS and never had even one fail to slab there, most at the same grade, a few higher and a couple lower so I'd say that you are wasting your time and $$$ cracking it and sending it anywhere. Were I you I would have it photo-ed under known conditions [with a witness] and repeated every 6 months.
look, it's comments like the one above that are really ridiculous. the whole discussion grew from a collector saying he thought one of his two coins seemed less intense while the other appeared unchanged and naturally the old suspicion was revived. Sunnywood, you seem to get back to the same defensive position that rests on some special qualification to judge tone on a Morgan, as though being a Morgan specialist is a requirement. i don't necessarily agree with that just as i don't agree with the assertions of the "experts" that their opinions need to be trusted. perhaps that was a certainty in the past, but times have changed, information has been disemminated and we are all a bit wiser.
NGC has been fooled to an embarrassing degree and, along with PCGS, recently took steps to combat things by issuing it's statement to dealers. by your own admission this group of coins was unprecedented. by the admission of most prominent dealers and by the pre-emminent grading services the proponents of AT are ahead of the detection ability, creating coins which fool us all. again, why would i trust the experts?? i have seen no forum member, no dealer, no organization and no grading service without some bias or self-interest in these coins come forward to endorse them. maybe that has happened and i haven't seen it, but it would probably be reassuring to everyone, seeing as there is so much self-serving secrecy offered by those who would be most adversely affected by anything negative about the BC's.
i don't know one way or the other but i suspect AT more than i accept NT.
I stink at coin imaging, but if you are comfortable and have the photography skills and equipment, I would be happy to send the coin to you to keep for the next couple years and you can photograph the coin under controlled circumstances. Alternatively, perhaps Russ or Mark Goodman would be willing to take on this task.
My son might require some compensation, and there were some really nice toned Morgans at Dennis King's table at the St. Louis show on Friday...
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
The reasons this may happen to brightly colored original toned silver coins could be but is not limited to trace amounts of moisture or other various contaminants on the surface or rim including skin oils from being handled, trace amounts of pollutants in the air inside the holder, trace amounts of various chemicals or impurities in the holder material itself, the holder not being airtight allowing oxygen exchange, actual storage conditions of the holder including heat or humidity, etc.
Regarding the holders themselves, it's also now common knowledge that NGC had a big issue with their older holders in the past (the thick ones and before) where there was something in the white plastic inserts that caused silver coins to tone inside the holders. This is self evident on 1000's of Morgan dollars in older NGC holders where the coins routinely develop toning after being inside these holders for a number of years, typically with various browns/rust colors and burnt gold colors near the rims and also splotches of gunmetal blues going inwards. In fact, it's very unusual to see an untoned, lusterous, blast white Morgan in an older thick NGC holder, although this seemed to have stopped happening after NGC switched to the newer thinner type holders. I've also seen quite a few Morgans in the old first generation PCGS rattler holders that have lost their intensity of lustre somewhat over time and now appear to have a slightly dull greyish cast to their surfaces making the coins look a lot less flashy, possibly due to long term air exposure and those holders not being airtight. I've also personally experienced this happen to high grade flashy white Morgans from original bags I purchased from Superiors Club Cal-Neva Sale back in the mid 80's and subsequently submitted to PCGS in 1986-87. These were 1000% original coins that were found in mint bags in the vaults of the Club Cal-Neva Casino and auctioned by Superior.
In any case, a small minority of original toned coins can and do change in appearance slightly over time depending on all kinds of things as outlined above, and that's not even remotely proof that the coin is not original or has been messed with somehow. The key word however is 'slightly', whereas obvious AT'd silver coins can and sometimes do change dramatically over time and typically will turn much darker (golds to dark browns, etc) and/or develop black spots and become splotchy and dramatically different in appearance.
I hope this clears a few things up......well maybe :-)
<< <i>Its a mighty sensitive subject.
Sure seems to get folks mighty
touchy just discussing the topic.
It kinda makes a person wonder why? >>
Sensitive because some people have a lot of $$$ invested in Battle Creek toners and they are understandably touchy about hints they are anything but 100% legit.
Having said that, this thread alone hasn't helped BC values........while many good points have been made on both sides I doubt a reading of this thread would make you more likely to buy a BC. Won't make you sell the ones you have but my impression is some of the people on the sidelines are more likely to stay there then they are likely to move to the buy side.
Great post, and it does clear some things up quite a bit.
<< <i>RYK, To address your original inquiry about your coin.........while not common, it's very possible for original bag toned coins to change in appearance or intensity a little bit over time after changing environments or holders or other various circumstances, so your eyes and memory are most likely correct as well as the coin being a good one. I've seen this happen before on colored Morgans who's originality was beyond a doubt including at least one coin I've owned long term from the Continental Hoard. It's also not uncommon for 100% original older copper coins to lose a bit of intensity in lustre or color or possibly even develop spots or other problems after being holdered or changing environments after long term storage in an original roll or whatever.
The reasons this may happen to brightly colored original toned silver coins could be but is not limited to trace amounts of moisture or other various contaminants on the surface or rim including skin oils from being handled, trace amounts of pollutants in the air inside the holder, trace amounts of various chemicals or impurities in the holder material itself, the holder not being airtight allowing oxygen exchange, actual storage conditions of the holder including heat or humidity, etc.
Regarding the holders themselves, it's also now common knowledge that NGC had a big issue with their older holders in the past (the thick ones and before) where there was something in the white plastic inserts that caused silver coins to tone inside the holders. This is self evident on 1000's of Morgan dollars in older NGC holders where the coins routinely develop toning after being inside these holders for a number of years, typically with various browns/rust colors and burnt gold colors near the rims and also splotches of gunmetal blues going inwards. In fact, it's very unusual to see an untoned, lusterous, blast white Morgan in an older thick NGC holder, although this seemed to have stopped happening after NGC switched to the newer thinner type holders. I've also seen quite a few Morgans in the old first generation PCGS rattler holders that have lost their intensity of lustre somewhat over time and now appear to have a slightly dull greyish cast to their surfaces making the coins look a lot less flashy, possibly due to long term air exposure and those holders not being airtight. I've also personally experienced this happen to high grade flashy white Morgans from original bags I purchased from Superiors Club Cal-Neva Sale back in the mid 80's and subsequently submitted to PCGS in 1986-87. These were 1000% original coins that were found in mint bags in the vaults of the Club Cal-Neva Casino and auctioned by Superior.
In any case, a small minority of original toned coins can and do change in appearance slightly over time depending on all kinds of things as outlined above, and that's not even remotely proof that the coin is not original or has been messed with somehow. The key word however is 'slightly', whereas obvious AT'd silver coins can and sometimes do change dramatically over time and typically will turn much darker (golds to dark browns, etc) and/or develop black spots and become splotchy and dramatically different in appearance.
I hope this clears a few things up......well maybe :-) >>
This is one of the best posts of the thread by a long time collector of quality Morgan dollars.I know because i have bought always nice Morgans from him in the past,and i dont believe that he owns any BC coins,though i am not sure.What i am sure about is that just like stock chat boards,people spreading FUD,fear,uncertainty,and doubt,without any backup or factual information are doing it for their own benefit.If a market for anything is helped or hurt by baseless assaults on any kind of area of numismatics,its probably because somebody is looking to profit from the FUD created.
<< <i>Since its well know that red color in paint, pictures and print tends to wash out when exposed to direct light does anyone know if red color in toned coins is effected by direct light?? >>
I highly doubt that its affected [not effected] at all by direct light since its supposedly the same substance which produces the other colors seen on toned coins, but just reflects the light differently.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>it would be very interesting if another multi-bag "collection" appears sometime in the future... same common dates in 63 and 64, same murky and secret ownership record of the bags with alleged "connections" to another famous group of bags, same witnesses saying they saw them opened, and the coins even more spectacular: brigher and more splendid and vibrant colors, proper color progression and smooth transitions, gorgeous bands of color and convincing crescents, and now, new and improved, even more colorfast! Guaranteed not to fade! >>
Baley, you got some of those to sell?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
And I certainly own no bags of Morgans. Are there more out there?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Keets,This subject has been brought up about 5 or 6 times since the BC collection was sold.I was not and am not accusing anyone with the exception of fanofcoins with blatant B.S.I do believe that Dragons post may have been the best possible answer as the white plastic has changed the color of some coins over the years and i do believe that when any market goes up or down,people profit on both ends.Just my opinion.Thanks >>
Not sure those old holders have much to do with the BC coins. I'd guess that both of RYK's coins were treated pretty much the same after opening the bag so any differences seen are likely not attributable to that.
Not just in regards to the BC Morgan situation, but in general....
Hypothetically speaking.....
Not singling out these beautiful coins....
Would the results have been any different if I submitted those 1400 coins without any fanfare or drum roll?
Would I have gotten them slabbed let alone received the star?
No Way...
ttt this one goes !
I have never been one motivated by profit in the numismatic arena, and my experience and discussions in the past here would confirm this. There is no way I know to short a Battle Creek Morgan, so I do not see how anyone could profit by spreading FUD.
190 posts to this thread and I killed it with my above post....
Happy now?
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
<< <i>Would the results have been any different if I submitted those 1400 coins without any fanfare or drum roll? >>
Do you have a story? It DOES matter sometimes. Doesn't even need to be a good one (look around you) or even hold up.
Anytime I have to hear a story and then it changes by the experts...... Ah, never mind.
One under each eye.
Camelot
<< <i>This thread is being discussed ATS as well. Link >>
Of course it is....the people that were banned here keep a good eye on this place and love to post threads with links to here. Not much else to do most of the time
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i>This thread is being discussed ATS as well. Link >>
Of course it is....the people that were banned here keep a good eye on this place and love to post threads with links to here. Not much else to do most of the time
Just thought I'd try a post to make sure I'm still here.
<< <i>looks like it's going to be the area 51 of coin collecting with folks continuing to crawl out of the woodwork to say the coins are unquestionably AT and that as their coins darkened in the coming decades they saw an image of the virgin Mary in lady Liberty's hair.....
look, it's comments like the one above that are really ridiculous. the whole discussion grew from a collector saying he thought one of his two coins seemed less intense while the other appeared unchanged and naturally the old suspicion was revived. Sunnywood, you seem to get back to the same defensive position that rests on some special qualification to judge tone on a Morgan, as though being a Morgan specialist is a requirement. i don't necessarily agree with that just as i don't agree with the assertions of the "experts" that their opinions need to be trusted. perhaps that was a certainty in the past, but times have changed, information has been disemminated and we are all a bit wiser.
NGC has been fooled to an embarrassing degree and, along with PCGS, recently took steps to combat things by issuing it's statement to dealers. by your own admission this group of coins was unprecedented. by the admission of most prominent dealers and by the pre-emminent grading services the proponents of AT are ahead of the detection ability, creating coins which fool us all. again, why would i trust the experts?? i have seen no forum member, no dealer, no organization and no grading service without some bias or self-interest in these coins come forward to endorse them. maybe that has happened and i haven't seen it, but it would probably be reassuring to everyone, seeing as there is so much self-serving secrecy offered by those who would be most adversely affected by anything negative about the BC's.
i don't know one way or the other but i suspect AT more than i accept NT. >>
You found my comment to be rediculous which was exactly my point...........what exactly are you adding to this discussion?
199
(edited to add --- I just wanted to get to do that