Interesting post about SEGS

Frankcoins · February 9, 2008 1:31AM

In the Usenet group rec.collecting.coins, a new user named hobbywatch@gmail.com (new user today)
posted the following:

And who put the idea in this guy's head that SEGS is 'highly respected
in the coin business." I only know of junk coin dealers using the
service and the vast majority of respected dealers in the hobby won't
touch there stuff. There product, according to most in the hobby, is
not market acceptible. They apparently don't guarantee their coins,
which along with several other services, was the basis of removing
them from ebay.

Posted from 65.196.179.50, which is listed to

65.196.179.50 UNITED STATES FLORIDA SARASOTA

NUMISMATIC GUARANTY CORP NGCCOIN.COM

UtahCoin · February 9, 2008 1:33AM

And your point would be....?

Zoins · February 9, 2008 1:34AM

<< They apparently don't guarantee their coins, which along with several other services, was the basis of removing them from ebay. >>

This seemed like a criteria early on, but my understanding is that ICCS does not offer a guarantee and they are now accepted by eBay. Their criteria may be something other than a guarantee now.

jdillane · February 9, 2008 1:36AM

Looks like NGC is throwing stones at a lesser service. How unseemly. I have my gripes about NGC but cannot go in to them now....off to a racquetball tournament!

291fifth · February 9, 2008 1:49AM

I like the improper use of "there."

Frankcoins · February 9, 2008 1:50AM

<< And your point would be....? >>

It's a HUGE deal for an employee of one company to post such remarks about a competitor in
a public forum under a fake name. It's usually INSTANT TERMINATION to do so, as it can result
in huge civil liabilities to the company as well as inverstigations by the Federal Trade Commission.

ziggy29 · February 9, 2008 1:50AM

Keep in mind that it's possible for someone who is sufficiently savvy to fake the IP address they are posting from.

Zoins · February 9, 2008 1:52AM

Could it be a kid visiting their father/mother at the office for a day, spending some time online while their parent was busy?

UtahCoin · February 9, 2008 1:53AM

<< Keep in mind that it's possible for someone who is sufficiently savvy to fake the IP address they are posting from. >>

My thoughts exactly

ricko · February 9, 2008 1:55AM

It could well be a veiled attempt to cast NGC in a poor light and cause legal woes. Cheers, RickO

Unknown · February 9, 2008 1:56AM

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Frankcoins · February 9, 2008 1:58AM

<< Keep in mind that it's possible for someone who is sufficiently savvy to fake the IP address they are posting from. >>

Almost impossible as it was posted through Google.

LindeDad · February 9, 2008 2:03AM

No matter who sent the message or from where.
Can anybody prove that what was said is not the truth?
And I don't really see it a that important of a subject on this forum.

ziggy29 · February 9, 2008 2:11AM

<< Can anybody prove that what was said is not the truth? >>

Well, the statement said:

There (sic) product, according to most in the hobby, is not market acceptible (sic). They apparently don't guarantee their coins, which along with several other services, was the basis of removing them from ebay.

This is at least partially false. SEGS *does* have a guarantee for six months. That's not the same as unconditional guarantees that other services may have, but it is decidedly *not* a lack of guarantee.

Tyler1924S · February 9, 2008 2:14AM

This is the first I've heard about the guarantee, or lack of it, being a factor (let alone, the basis) for removing TPG's from ebay.

LindeDad · February 9, 2008 2:20AM

When does the six months start and how can I tell that date when bidding on the item on eBay. Is the question?
And I think that is only one of the factors in play.

Doogy · February 9, 2008 2:34AM

<< 

<< Keep in mind that it's possible for someone who is sufficiently savvy to fake the IP address they are posting from. >>

My thoughts exactly >>

YUP! someone has a bone to pick with NGC, and simply faked the IP address to try to get 'em in trouble. It doesn't take a genius to pull this off; and furthermore, one shouldn't believe everything you read on the 'net. Remember Biddles supposed interview with David Hall and Carol J. that were blatantly made up as a spoof?

Bochiman · February 9, 2008 3:30AM

<< 

<< Can anybody prove that what was said is not the truth? >>

Well, the statement said:

There (sic) product, according to most in the hobby, is not market acceptible (sic). They apparently don't guarantee their coins, which along with several other services, was the basis of removing them from ebay.

This is at least partially false. SEGS *does* have a guarantee for six months. That's not the same as unconditional guarantees that other services may have, but it is decidedly *not* a lack of guarantee. >>

Nope....the word "apparently" was used.....so, it is not a statement of fact.

Frankcoins · February 9, 2008 4:31AM

<< 

<< Can anybody prove that what was said is not the truth? >>

Well, the statement said:

There (sic) product, according to most in the hobby, is not market acceptible (sic). They apparently don't guarantee their coins, which along with several other services, was the basis of removing them from ebay.

This is at least partially false. SEGS *does* have a guarantee for six months. That's not the same as unconditional guarantees that other services may have, but it is decidedly *not* a lack of guarantee. >>

And they were not "removed" from ebay, they just can't be listed as certified.

And the basis for approval according to ebay and the ANA, was the PNG "survey" , not any guarantee criteria. NGC knows this,
since they are the "official grading service of the PNG" and "official grading service of the ANA"

And to say SEGS is not market acceptable when they are listed in the greysheet and bluesheet, and their grading consultants are
Larry Briggs, Jeff Oxman, Brian Greer, Bill Fivaz and J.R Grellman is certainly false.

Also, the "approved" services DO NOT have "unconditional guarantees." NGC's page says in big print

WARNING: THIS GUARANTEE IS LIMITED

STONE · February 9, 2008 4:33AM

I like SEGS.

Thats it.

Frankcoins · February 9, 2008 4:41AM

<< 

Nope....the word "apparently" was used.....so, it is not a statement of fact. >>

Try saying someone is "apparently" a child molester, or "apparently" an embezzler,
and then claim you are not liable for libel

Unknown · February 9, 2008 4:43AM

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Frankcoins · February 9, 2008 4:48AM

<< As an example my coin is corroded but as a newbee I didn't know that "slightly rough surfaces" that SEGS put on the label was bad or that it meant corrosion. I didn't realize that it was a problem coin because of their decetive wording. If they used the word corrosion like ANACS does then I as a newbee could relate to that word equalling DAMAGE

>>

Guess you should have bought a coin slabbed by one of those services that slabs slightly corroded coins
and don't mention it at all on the label.

ziggy29 · February 9, 2008 4:50AM

<< As an example my coin is corroded but as a newbee I didn't know that "slightly rough surfaces" that SEGS put on the label was bad or that it meant corrosion. I didn't realize that it was a problem coin because of their decetive wording. >>

Blaming other entities for your own lack of knowledge. I love it.

Unknown · February 9, 2008 5:17AM

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jdillane · February 9, 2008 5:48AM

<< 

<< 

<< As an example my coin is corroded but as a newbee I didn't know that "slightly rough surfaces" that SEGS put on the label was bad or that it meant corrosion. I didn't realize that it was a problem coin because of their decetive wording. >>

Blaming other entities for your own lack of knowledge. I love it. >>

Ziggy my friend. My first purchase from a neighborhood dealer who I expressly stated that I would like to invest in a top quality classic coin. He showed me a SEGS AU55 that also stated slight rough surfaces. I trusted the dealer, paid $2k and thought that it was a great investment. Later as I became experienced I learned that SEGS net grades without really saying so and what was listed on the coin was the problem that the coin had, which was corrosion but they didn't state that like one would imagine, by stating it was actually corrosion. Ziggy I don't care that you can't comprehend or put yourself in a newbees' shoes once in a while but SEGS slabs play games with the public and the dealer who absolutely knew better. ripped off another newbee. But all you can say is that a newbee should better. And Frank you are a dealer you should know better. >>

SEGS rep aside, your neighborhood dealer appears to be the rat in the story. As far as the OP is concerned, the comments seem to have elements of opinion and fact. If the facts are erroneous, they are actionable.

leothelyon · February 9, 2008 6:24AM

NGc voids it's guarantee by (apparently) overgrading everything MS66 and MS67. Their mentality is, "who in their right mind would want to downgrade a coin based on principle?" Secondly, most coins going to NgC are those that aren't sent to PCGS. So basically, they're grading leftovers, the lower percent of the market that's usually watched by a less knowledgeable pool of collectors. No offense to those who might think they have some upper advantage following NGC over PCGS, I can only speak from the Jefferson nickel perspective and based on some analogies on pop numbers for some modern series.
SEGS grades coins other TGS's are unlikely to grade or give credit to their originality. I don't have a problem with that, especially with Jefferson nickels. I believe SEGS factors in the strike of the coin more so than other TGSs, I like that too! What collectors need to realize is that, not all TGS's follow or offer the same grading opinions on many series. That there are different opinions on coins other TGs's don't offer or don't want to be liable for with their grade guarantees. Collectors who want an expanded opinion in the form of a label and a capsulated coin and don't have or want the luxuries of having to spend the higher dollar on choicier coins will have their coins graded by SEGS and be happy with them.
The wrong mentality is for anyone to believe that all TGS's need to grade coins on the same level. If this were to be true than there would really be no reason for the existence of the other. Same holds true for humans. If we all were to think exactly alike, would there really be a reason for the other to exist!

Leo

messydesk · February 9, 2008 6:27AM

They still have the best holders.

Bochiman · February 9, 2008 6:31AM

Frank, do you have partial ownership in SEGS?
You seem to be quite the fighting proponent for them, huh?

Some might think that "apparently" you have something to gain by promoting them...or, apparently, you are just an argumentative sort of person.

lathmach · February 9, 2008 6:48AM

I don't own any SEGS slabs.
If I were to get my collection encapsulated though, they are the ones that I would choose to do it.
I'd want it all slabbed by the same company, and I wouldn't want any bodybags.
Another thing is that I would want the coins properly attributed.
That's what SEGS does best.

Ray

FlyingEagle · February 9, 2008 6:55AM

<< NGc voids it's guarantee by (apparently) overgrading everything MS66 and MS67. Their mentality is, "who in their right mind would want to downgrade a coin based on principle?" Secondly, most coins going to NgC are those that aren't sent to PCGS. So basically, they're grading leftovers, the lower percent of the market that's usually watched by a less knowledgeable pool of collectors. >>

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." Abraham Lincoln

Frankcoins · February 9, 2008 7:24AM

<< Frank, do you have partial ownership in SEGS?
You seem to be quite the fighting proponent for them, huh?

Some might think that "apparently" you have something to gain by promoting them...or, apparently, you are just an argumentative sort of person. >>

Just principled...that's standing up for fairness on something you DON'T have a financial interest in.

JohnMaben · February 9, 2008 7:25AM

As the former Senior Vice President of NGC, from 1996-2004, I would lay odds at about 1,000,000 to 1 that anyone from NGC posted that, and I will notify them about it on Monday if someone would email me the direct link to john@moderncoinmart.com
Thank you,
John

sinin1 · February 9, 2008 7:51AM

I'll take a dollar of that action John

JohnMaben · February 9, 2008 7:56AM

"NGc voids it's guarantee by (apparently) overgrading everything MS66 and MS67. Their mentality is, "who in their right mind would want to downgrade a coin based on principle?" Secondly, most coins going to NgC are those that aren't sent to PCGS. So basically, they're grading leftovers, the lower percent of the market that's usually watched by a less knowledgeable pool of collectors. No offense to those who might think they have some upper advantage following NGC over PCGS, I can only speak from the Jefferson nickel perspective and based on some analogies on pop numbers for some modern series."

What a bunch of baloney! I'll put NGC coins against anyone's side by side. I believe if chosen at random, as many coins if cracked from other service holders would grade LOWER at NGC as would grade lower when the other way around. In other words if comparing only NGC and PCGS, you'd be just as likely to get downgrades at both services from coins removed from the others holder.

To say NGC grades leftovers is just a completely uninformed statement. I believe NGC grades more coins than any other service, and by far most have not been anywhere else as you say, but not because they are left overs or sub-standard, it is because knowlegeable submitters want the right grade the first time. I know this to be a fact because I am a major submitter and I know most of the other major submitters and we just like getting the right grade the first time.

PCGS is a great grading service also, but I understand NGC better, like their consistency, and that's where most of my grading dollars are spent.

ILikeMercs · February 9, 2008 8:01AM

I had a Merc short (graded by NGC) set in gem+ and I did very well when I sold them. Drink some more kool aid.

Russ · February 9, 2008 8:04AM

<< My first purchase from a neighborhood dealer who I expressly stated that I would like to invest in a top quality classic coin. He showed me a SEGS AU55 that also stated slight rough surfaces. I trusted the dealer, paid $2k and thought that it was a great investment. >>

So, it's SEGS' fault that the dealer is a slimeball?

Russ, NCNE

Russ · February 9, 2008 8:07AM

<< Later as I became experienced I learned that SEGS net grades without really saying so >>

Every service, PCGS and NGC included, does that. And, what exactly did you think the term "rough surfaces" on the label meant? Your experience was born of a collision between your own ignorance and a less than reputable dealer. It has nothing to do with SEGS.

Russ, NCNE

Russ · February 9, 2008 8:09AM

<< Secondly, most coins going to NgC are those that aren't sent to PCGS >>

Gee, that's profound.

Russ, NCNE

UtahCoin · February 9, 2008 8:13AM

<< I'll take a dollar of that action John >>

Me too! Little downside risk, great upside potential....

jdillane · February 9, 2008 8:16AM

SEGS has a place in the market. While I agree that their slabs are without peer, their attribution and problem grading provide a niche service. I tend to discount their coins as I think they are a tad liberal in grading. Beyond that, they are a solid second tier service.

And, of course, do your homework and buy the coin, not the slab!

edited for spelling

JohnMaben · February 9, 2008 8:25AM

uhhhh.... well..... I didn't actually mean I'd take the bets, I just laid the odds......

Wolf359 · February 9, 2008 9:01AM

He showed me a SEGS AU55 that also stated slight rough surfaces. I trusted the dealer, paid $2k and thought that it was a great investment

So the dealer ripped you and not SEGS

RichieURich · February 9, 2008 11:12AM

I'll bet $5 on it, John!

Unknown · February 9, 2008 11:31AM

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sinin1 · February 10, 2008 1:09AM

Realone - was the coin copper?

do you still have the coin, if so a picture would be nice

after a few more years of collecting, you will realize that the coin inside the slab is just as important (if not much more), than what the label says and whose label it is

so, good coins can be found in 3rd world slabs, and there is nothing wrong with not ever looking at them

I like looking at ANACS and ICG because they usually grade higher than PCGS, but not always

if you can pick up a crossover at 60% PCGS value, you got a deal

Frankcoins · February 10, 2008 1:35AM

<< Realone - was the coin copper?

do you still have the coin, if so a picture would be nice >>

I was wondering that also. Bob Grellman does the more expensive early copper for SEGS, and he tends
to make comments like that to denote planchet roughness very common to these issues. This would not
necessarily indicate a problem coin.

BAJJERFAN · February 10, 2008 1:48AM

<< As the former Senior Vice President of NGC, from 1996-2004, I would lay odds at about 1,000,000 to 1 that anyone from NGC posted that, and I will notify them about it on Monday if someone would email me the direct link to john@moderncoinmart.com
Thank you,
John >>

It looks like the post may have been removed if it was posted after 1/31/08. I don't see it there.

tradedollarnut · February 10, 2008 1:54AM

Secondly, most coins going to NgC are those that aren't sent to PCGS. So basically, they're grading leftovers, the lower percent of the market that's usually watched by a less knowledgeable pool of collectors.

For anything prior to WWII, this statement is totally silly. Classic coins go to NGC first to get the grade, then PCGS for crossover. By the time you ever have a chance to buy the coin, it's probably been submitted many many times to get the 'correct' grade and to get the 'correct' plastic.

au58 · February 10, 2008 2:02AM

<< I blame myself first of course, I blame the dealer second, and I blame SEGS third

<< 

This sums it up pretty well.

PerryHall · February 10, 2008 2:03AM

<< Classic coins go to NGC first to get the grade, then PCGS for crossover. >>

Why not send it directly to PCGS?

Interesting post about SEGS

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