I have no dog in this "exchange", however I do find it quite interesting that no one involved here has pointed out the demerits of examining coins prior to purchase, such as those discussed here, under the extremely deceptive effects of the sodium vapor lights so often utilized in venues used for numismatic bourses. This form of lighting IMHO always enhances the actual quality of the surface of silver coins, wether toned or not. I doubt that any of the owners of BC Morgans have sodium vapor lamps in their homes or privacy rooms at the bank where the SDB is located.
Mine haven't faded one lumen, value unit, chromon, CSS unit, or saturation point. Here are two in PCGS plastic, as bright today as when I acquired them, just like every other naturally toned rainbow Morgan that I own. I have owned a couple of bum AT coins over the years that turned in the holders, but these are absolutely nowhere near that category. By the way, the questions about the actual provenance of the BC coins are typicals of MANY coin hoards and consignments. Very often, an intermediary who bought the coins for a cheap price (i.e. ripped off the original owner) will obfuscate the provenance to avoid the appearance of impropriety (i.e. avoid getting caught). In the case of BC, I suspect the purchaser of the nine original sealed mint bags made an absolute killing when these were auctioned off. The source/seller of those nine bags got screwed, no doubt. It is realities like that which cause provenance/hisotry to become obscured. That does not, however, speak to the authenticity of the coins, which in my view are beyond question - based on having looked at ALL OF THEM in four auction lot viewings.
The following images slightly under-represent the vibrancy and luster of the coins, which remains absolutely unchanged. By the way, I have actually used spectrophotometers, colorimeters, and reflectivity densitometers (although not on coins). Some scientific measurements with these types of instruments over time would put an end to speculation about the toning fading out.
<< <i> Some scientific measurements with these types of instruments over time would put an end to speculation about the toning fading out. >>
No, it would just put an end to speculation for the pieces that you own.
You know a lot more about this topic than I do, but if you put aside the scientific aspect of this and look at it strictly from a historical standpoint, it raises a lot of questions. The coins appeared out of nowhere with little or no documented past at a time when the toning fad was around it's apex. They were some of the most wildly colored pieces the numismatic community has ever seen. They were sold over a relatively short period of time, and now some people are claiming that the toning is changing in their holders.
Their only claim to legitimacy is the fact that they follow the normal patterns of bag toning.
<< <i>Mine haven't faded one lumen, value unit, chromon, CSS unit, or saturation point. Here are two in PCGS plastic, as bright today as when I acquired them, just like every other naturally toned rainbow Morgan that I own. I have owned a couple of bum AT coins over the years that turned in the holders, but these are absolutely nowhere near that category. By the way, the questions about the actual provenance of the BC coins are typicals of MANY coin hoards and consignments. Very often, an intermediary who bought the coins for a cheap price (i.e. ripped off the original owner) will obfuscate the provenance to avoid the appearance of impropriety (i.e. avoid getting caught). In the case of BC, I suspect the purchaser of the nine original sealed mint bags made an absolute killing when these were auctioned off. The source/seller of those nine bags got screwed, no doubt. It is realities like that which cause provenance/hisotry to become obscured. That does not, however, speak to the authenticity of the coins, which in my view are beyond question - based on having looked at ALL OF THEM in four auction lot viewings.
The following images slightly under-represent the vibrancy and luster of the coins, which remains absolutely unchanged. By the way, I have actually used spectrophotometers, colorimeters, and reflectivity densitometers (although not on coins). Some scientific measurements with these types of instruments over time would put an end to speculation about the toning fading out.
>>
Check out Sunnywoods registry set of toned Morgans,and also his secondary set.He just might know a tad more than most about toned Morgans,and i probably own a number that would fit right in,and i do NOT have a chemistry background,but a pretty good eye for the real deal.JMO
Great coins are not cheap,and cheap coins are not great!
<< <i>No, it would just put an end to speculation for the pieces that you own. >>
excellent point. is it possible the hoard was mixed? maybe some of the vibrant beauties were NT and some others came from a different source.
<< <i>I have actually used spectrophotometers, colorimeters, and reflectivity densitometers >>
anyone near Rochester NY? maybe bring some coins to RIT and have the measurements recorded. return every couple of months and check them again. they have the equipment and could offer a non-bias scientific analysis over time.
<< <i>I have no dog in this "exchange", however I do find it quite interesting that no one involved here has pointed out the demerits of examining coins prior to purchase, such as those discussed here, under the extremely deceptive effects of the sodium vapor lights so often utilized in venues used for numismatic bourses. This form of lighting IMHO always enhances the actual quality of the surface of silver coins, wether toned or not. I doubt that any of the owners of BC Morgans have sodium vapor lamps in their homes or privacy rooms at the bank where the SDB is located. >>
Thats why you should always ask if you can take the coin outside for another look under different lighting, or ask for return privileges if the coin disappoints after you leave the bourse..
I think it would be a great idea for someone (grading services, or maybe even ANA) to set up a coin lab. Then if collectors have coins that they think are fading, they could send them to the lab for measurement of the color, brightness, reflectivity, etc over time. The lab could serve many other functions as well.
The Battle Creek coins were of the same character as the famed Continental Bank hoard coins in the early 90's. Many of us believe that the nine Battle Creek bags may have come from that hoard originally. There were (2) bags of 1885, (3) each of 1886 and 1887, and (1) of 1904-O. Unfortunately there weren't as many toners out of the 1904-O bag. "Battle Creek" is of course a random name given to the 1400 coins that had color, out of the 9000 coins in the nine bags.
The above information I have on extremely good authority. I think what may have happened is that the nine bags somehow "escaped" out of the Continental Bank hoard, and were put away for 12 years. Sometimes, the provenance is deliberately made murky to cover the tracks of transactions that should not have occurred. That is my theory on the "Battle Creek" coins. Others have claimed that the nine bags were held by another bank. There have been lengthy threads on this subject previously. The subject of he legitimacy and origin of the BC coins has been thrashed to death. Those of us who believed in the coins, however, had no qualms about stepping up and buying the ones we liked.
At one point I did ask whether it was possible that, given the opportunity that the "Battle Creek" toners presented for making a big splash at auction, perhaps other pieces were added to the mix. I raised this question because the sheer variety of toning seemed overwhelming for nine bags of coins. I even raised the question as to whether some AT coins could have been thrown in. (I mention this only to demonstrate that I am not blindly supportive of any one theory, but rather, I try to draw my conclusions based on facts and reason.) However, after much discussion with various individuals involved in the auctioning and the grading, I discarded that idea. I do believe that all the coins came from the same source. Further, some very experienced dealers who have physically opened hundreds of original Morgan bags during the 70's and 80's commented to me that it was not impossible to have that kind of variety coming out of a bag.
By the way, there is nothing new about assigning names and meaningless "pedigrees" to sets, groups of coins, auction consignments, etc. How many times have we seen hastily assembled groups of wholesale inventory coins dumped at auction under some fancy sounding name? That doesn't mean that the coins themselves are not legitimate. In the case of the Battle Creek coins, the idea of a pedigree is more legitimate, as the coins did apparently all come from one original group of mint bags. The name provides an easy point of reference to this particular group of coins, and that is quite useful.
112 posts? That's it? Come on - this thing is good for 500 at least. Here's Gmarguli's post from ATS [responding why he thinks they aren't NT]:
Certain active dealers in these coins who abruptly stopped dealing in them right around the time certain info was available. I was also told flat out by one particular dealer why he stopped dealing in them.
Still, the coins may be 100% NT and the info floated incorrect. Every buyer needs to make up their own mind as to whether the coins are acceptable for themselves. If they are pretty, then NT or AT does not matter, IMHO.
TDN, you know perfectly well that is utter nonsense, but thanks for roiling the waters by copying his post here, you trouble-maker !!! What dealers are Greg talking about? Some local two-bit B&M's? The dealer who stepped up to the plate and made a market in these coins - putting a great deal of his own money at risk by buying a large number of the best specimens out of the auctions - was Mike DeFalco. Mikey's experience with toned Morgans (including pulling them right out of the bag) is unmatched. His major personal financial commitment to the BC coins speaks volumes, and is certainly more relevant than the second-hand comments attributed to some unknown dealer. Another dealer whose expertise is unquestioned in this area is Larry Shepherd, who also stepped up to the plate and bought some of the best coins. In fact, it was head-butting between Shepherd and DeFalco at the auctions that resulted in some of the very high hammer prices. But no matter - serious collectors snapped up the good ones in the secondary market regardless.
P.S. "if they are pretty then NT or AT doesn't matter IMHO" .... yeah, it does, to most of us. One of the things that makes toned Morgans special is that certain types of the characteristic toning - well-separated banded rainbow toners, textile toners, end-rollers - have very well documented natural origins.
The deal was handled by Superior on behalf of the owner, a dealer who wished to remain anonymous. I have already speculated above as to the reasons why that might be the case. There are many instances in which sellers try to retain anonymity, for variety of reasons. Superior handled the marketing and conducted the auctions, but it was the owner who submitted them to NGC. It was the owner's idea to creat a collection name to cover the subset of coins that had color.
One of the controversies was the award of the NGC star to all of those coins. It certainly appeared as though NGC had cut a deal to hand out the star in return for getting the group. I was later told by NGC that it was the other way around - any coins that did not get the star were excluded from the group that were given the name "Battle Creek Collection." The owner, through NGC and Superior as agent, decided to market only the coins with color that got a star as "Battle Creek" coins. So that appeared to resolve any questions about NGC's award of the "star" designation.
Here's a link to more info on the story behind the Battle Creek coins:
P.S. According to this story, they were sealed Federal Reserve Bank bags from the 1920's, not U.S. Mint bags, a slight distinction. newmismatist speculates that this explains the small number of 1904-O dollars in the deal. My info was that there was one bag of 1904-O, but newmismatist had it right from the owner.
<< <i>who claims to have physically opened the bags that contained the Battle Creek Hoard coins?? who was the owner(s) that submitted them to NGC?? >>
I know who opened the bags and I know who submitted them to NGC for grading. If this individual wishes to relinquish his (or her) anonymity he (or she) will do so. If not I respect this individuals right to remain anonymous and so should you. The bags were original and the toning is original. In other words this is the real deal. Anyone who is genuinely knowledgeable in regard to bag toned Morgan dollars wouldn't need to know the provenance to determine the originality of the coins.
The Battle Creek coins were of the same character as the famed Continental Bank hoard coins
False! I saw hundreds of the Contenental Illinois hoard coins back in the 1980's and also looked at each and every coin in the Superior 2005 sale, and although 20 years seperated the two, I can say that they did not look anything alike.
I am not making any claims one way on another about the Battle Creek coins.
BTW, Newmismatist posted this back in 2006:
By the way - the Dealer who bought the hoard of unopened bags thinks very highly of TCCS
If you want to know who the dealer is, just look who got BIG in 2006. They either went from small to big, big to bigger, or left the business altogether.
<< <i>112 posts? That's it? Come on - this thing is good for 500 at least. Here's Gmarguli's post from ATS [responding why he thinks they aren't NT]:
Certain active dealers in these coins who abruptly stopped dealing in them right around the time certain info was available. I was also told flat out by one particular dealer why he stopped dealing in them.
Still, the coins may be 100% NT and the info floated incorrect. Every buyer needs to make up their own mind as to whether the coins are acceptable for themselves. If they are pretty, then NT or AT does not matter, IMHO. >>
Indeed!!!
Purple copper gets reemed a new a$$, yet toned Morgans get a pass. Just goes to show the power of a larger market segment with greater financial backing.
There is an awful of lot of secrecy that surrounds the Battle Creek Morgans, but not unlike like many other numismatic secrets, knowing who opened the bag would probably mean very little to me and most people here. Having secrets, however, always casts doubts on the legitimacy of an operation, numismatic or otherwise.
All I want to know is whether my son's coin is changing color or not, and in time, I will have the answer. It will not matter who allegedly opened the bag or the tubes or Pandora's box or whatever. There is no way I would sell it now and miss out all the fun if it does turn. For me, if it is turning it's no big deal. It might be a bigger deal to other parties. Hopefully, for the sake of numismatics, it will stay as it is.
How many years have the grading services acquiesced to the Buffalo nickel handiwork of Nick Ciunci, for example?
i worked at a company that handled all the battlecreek morgans as soon as they were made. i personally handled every single coin in that collection, including the ones that did not get slabbed. i can tell you with some degree of certainty that they are AT.
<< <i>i worked at a company that handled all the battlecreek morgans as soon as they were made. i personally handled every single coin in that collection, including the ones that did not get slabbed. i can tell you with some degree of certainty that they are AT. >>
<< <i>i worked at a company that handled all the battlecreek morgans as soon as they were made. i personally handled every single coin in that collection, including the ones that did not get slabbed. i can tell you with some degree of certainty that they are AT. >>
That's a rather bold statement. I'd be interested to hear more...
<< <i>Purple copper gets reemed a new a$$, yet toned Morgans get a pass. Just goes to show the power of a larger market segment with greater financial backing. >>
I just saw this thread now. Good Golly Miss Molly!!! Another BC scree. Wow, something different... people foaming at the mouth about AT/NT. For the life of me, I don't understand what the Hoopla about BC coins is. There seems to be a contingent of people that MUST yammer about the BC's being AT, something I haven't noticed about a wide variety of other coins. For example, dipped or puttied or pick your choice of possible doctorings.
As an owner of ~30 BC coins I am quite happy to say that yesterday I was at the bank getting a 1957-P Franklin out to compare to a possible new purchase. While at the bank by chance (it was on top of the box of Franklins I needed to access) I looked at a box of BC coins and again thought to myself how nice they looked... nice and vibrant and fun. The coins that I looked at all appeared the same to me as they had 2 to 3 years ago when I first saw them. Also, FWIW, I often will keep a couple BC's at home switching them in and out from the safe deposit box for variety and they all appear the same to me as when I first purchased them.
If you think the BC coins are AT then don't buy them. If you think they are NT then pay what you think is a reasonable price for the coin that you are considering purchasing. I'm quite happy with my BC's and plan to hold on to them and enjoy them, which I thought was the whole reason people become coin collectors in the first place.
<< <i>i worked at a company that handled all the battlecreek morgans as soon as they were made. i personally handled every single coin in that collection, including the ones that did not get slabbed. i can tell you with some degree of certainty that they are AT. >>
Oh, is that so? Who are you and to which company are you referring? Give us a rundown on your numismatic credentials. I'm sure you must have many years experience in the toned dollar market. Identify yourself so we can all know who it is that is pronouncing (with some degree of certainty) that the Battle Creek dollars are AT.
BTW, in case you didn't know I am Mike De Falco, a recognized expert in the field with over three decades of battlefield experience. Again, who are you?
Mikey
PS Is there a full moon tonight? That usually brings 'em out...
<< <i>i worked at a company that handled all the battlecreek morgans as soon as they were made. i personally handled every single coin in that collection, including the ones that did not get slabbed. i can tell you with some degree of certainty that they are AT. >>
BULLSH**
The only companies that handled them all were NGC and Superior. Obviously NGC did not think they were AT. And I can absolutely state that neither did the principals of Superior.
As far as purple copper vs. toned Morgans, there is a difference. Countless thousands of Morgans sat in undisturbed storage for decades, under circumstances that caused substantial numbers of them to acquire unquestionably natural, colorful, indeed spectacular toning. The same cannot be said for copper coins - is there some documented circumstance under which a hoard of purple or blue coppers was created? I think not. Furthermore, there are known coin doctors (whom I could name) who have used MS70 and other reagents to create blue, purple, and red colors on copper - especially Indian cents.
<< <i><< i worked at a company that handled all the battlecreek morgans as soon as they were made. i personally handled every single coin in that collection, including the ones that did not get slabbed. i can tell you with some degree of certainty that they are AT. >>
I read fan's post to mean that he worked on the coins to make these colorful coins. Puts him in the same category electricians, " only God and electricians can make light" so only God and Fan's "company" make rainbow toners that can fool the experts.
i can say no more due to legal issues. if mr. defalco has been in the business so long he knows who's making the coins. you guys don't have to believe me, just keep an open mind and spend your money wisely.
<< <i>i can say no more due to legal issues. if mr. defalco has been in the business so long he knows who's making the coins. you guys don't have to believe me, just keep an open mind and spend your money wisely. >>
I have no respect whatsoever for anyone who would hide behind an alternate i.d. so why don't you just come out of the closet and reveal your true identity. If you're not willing to do that then keep your pronunciations to yourself. You wouldn't be a disgruntled Superior ex-employee would you? Gee, that might account for all of this nonsense.
Oh, there are no "ifs" when it comes to how long I've been in this business. I founded my first company (Mike De Falco Rare Coins) in November, 1973 and have continuously been a full time rare coin dealer (professional numismatist) since. Again, who are you and what are your credentials? Don't hide behind the claim of "legal issues" -- it's nothing more than cowardice plain and simple.
<< <i>i can say no more due to legal issues. if mr. defalco has been in the business so long he knows who's making the coins. you guys don't have to believe me, just keep an open mind and spend your money wisely. >>
I'd think anyone "making" the coins would prefer the utmost secrecy.
I doubt that many would know their identity, regardless of their time in the business of numismatics.
I know how to AT coins after a bit of work and experiments and they would slab, they already have, in fact, and they will never get to the market, NEVER.
I only submitted a peace and a Morgan to see what would happen. I'm not even going to say who slabbed them other than it's one of the big two.
Still, it would take me an awful lot of time and effort, or a lucky combination to copy the BC coins.
If I were to do it to rip off the coin community, I'd never let my identity be known and I wouldn't need or allow anybody else to handle them either.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i>I have no dog in this "exchange", however I do find it quite interesting that no one involved here has pointed out the demerits of examining coins prior to purchase, such as those discussed here, under the extremely deceptive effects of the sodium vapor lights so often utilized in venues used for numismatic bourses. This form of lighting IMHO always enhances the actual quality of the surface of silver coins, wether toned or not. I doubt that any of the owners of BC Morgans have sodium vapor lamps in their homes or privacy rooms at the bank where the SDB is located. >>
Deuce is right - an intricately toned coin will look quite different under different light sources ; and with about an unlimited amount of those - a coin could easily look different.
as to the authenticity of the B.C. dollars ; you gotta smell some rat at the fact (whatever the reason) the source of the coins wouldn`t want to be famous.
Show me a coin man with no ego and no desire for the notoriety and fame that would follow the unveiling of original ,rainbow bags of Morgans -
You guys are really naïve if you can't figure out any of the many reasons why someone might prefer to remain anonymous.
Those of you who have very little experience with beautifully toned Morgans would do much better to stick to your white coins, or your other series in which you have more experience. After all, the vast majority of Morgans have been thrown in a bathtub with Jeweluster, or the like, at some point in their lifetime. No, not all; there are original white coins from those bags as well. But how many of you can tell the difference between an original, naturally white (NW) coin, and a chemically treated, artifically white (AW) dipped coin? I wager very few indeed.
So are all of your white coins NW or AW? I bet most of you who constantly make accusations about AT coins own plenty of chemically altered artificially white coins. I wager there are more artificially white, dipped, chemically de-toned coins out there in TPG holders than there are AT coins.
I'd rather have a naturally and colorfully toned Battle Creek Morgan than an artificially whitened, chemically stripped untoned specimen any day.
By the way, did it ever occur to anyone that NGC put their reputation on the line by slabbing 1400 of those coins? Do you think they would have done that if they weren't quite certain they were NT? Of course they aren't perfect, and the occasional AT coin gets into a holder ... but 1400 coins from one submitter at one time? Come on, people, the folks at NGC probably know a little something about authentication. Even I, whose coins are all in PCGS holders, admit that NGC is pretty good in most respects.
Best, Sunnywood
P.S. Nobody hates AT coins more than I do ... they diminish the value of my beautifully toned coins. And if there are doubts about the authenticity of toning, it is certainly correct to discuss it openly. However, when endless accusations are are falsely made about a group of coins that has been staunchly vouched for by the top specialists in the area, as well as by NGC, then it's time to get highly irritated ...
I have no respect whatsoever for anyone who would hide behind an alternate i.d. so why don't you just come out of the closet and reveal your true identity. If you're not willing to do that then keep your pronunciations to yourself. You wouldn't be a disgruntled Superior ex-employee would you? Gee, that might account for all of this nonsense.
Why is the anonymity of the poster any more or less worthy of protection than the anonymity of the person who opened the bags? And why get so heated up over an obvious alt poster???
<< <i>I have no respect whatsoever for anyone who would hide behind an alternate i.d. so why don't you just come out of the closet and reveal your true identity. If you're not willing to do that then keep your pronunciations to yourself. You wouldn't be a disgruntled Superior ex-employee would you? Gee, that might account for all of this nonsense.
Why is the anonymity of the poster any more or less worthy of protection than the anonymity of the person who opened the bags? And why get so heated up over an obvious alt poster??? >>
If one is going to make such negative pronouncements in regard to the authenticity of the toning on the Battle Creek dollars then he should also be willing to provide to adequate credentials (which in this case would have to include his true identity) to substantiate his claim that that the coins are AT. Because of such negative pronouncements he automatically casts aspersions without just cause upon all those involved with the grading and marketing of these coins -- and that my friend, just isn't right and personally I'm offended by it (a sentiment I sure would be shared by most reasonable men). BTW, I'm not hot -- just a tad annoyed...
If one is going to make such positive pronouncements in regard to the authenticity of the toning on the Battle Creek dollars then he should also be willing to provide to adequate credentials (which in this case would have to include his true identity) to substantiate his claim that that the coins are NT
again , except for the changing of two words -this is the exact argument for having the B.C. coins origin's known
On the contrary, PawPaul, the owner of the coins has already provided significant substantiation of the authenticity of the coins. His identity is irrelevant.
First, he had the coins certified by one of the top numismatic authentication companies in the world - NGC. That alone should strongly raise a presumption of authenticity. Do you really think NGC would risk their entire business by falsely certifying 1400 AT coins? Nonsense.
Second, he provided evidence in the form of the empty Federal Reserve Bank bags. NGC had images of some of them. I know someone who has seen the empty bags.
If these coins had been offered raw in Coin World, then I would agree that the presumption would be against them. But let's not forget the very powerful evidence of the NGC slabs themselves, which the owner provided to us by having the coins submitted at his expense.
Now, does "fanofcoins" have any actual evidence that comes close to the weight of NGC's collective judgment on ONE THOUSAND FOUR HUNDRED slabs ??? I think not. But if he does, I'd like details. These false accusations regarding the BC coins impugn NGC, Superior, the many dealers who believed in these coins and bought them for inventory, and the many more collectors who now own them. As the authenticity of coins in my collection is being challenged, as well as the judgment of both NGC and Superior, I think the challenger needs to step up with more than just words.
Just a little follow up to Sunnywoods post.Fan guy or whatever has 43 posts,should give him the credibility that that he has earned from and with his peers on this board.I can vouch for many board members,and vise-versa,ANYONE ON THIS BOARD VOUCH FOR FANGUY?All responses about him,not his post would be appreciated.BTW,My first post in this thread mentioned lighting conditions at coin viewings and shows.TIA
Great coins are not cheap,and cheap coins are not great!
<< <i>On the contrary, PawPaul, the owner of the coins has already provided significant substantiation of the authenticity of the coins. His identity is irrelevant.
First, he had the coins certified by one of the top numismatic authentication companies in the world - NGC. That alone should strongly raise a presumption of authenticity. Do you really think NGC would risk their entire business by falsely certifying 1400 AT coins? Nonsense.
Second, he provided evidence in the form of the empty Federal Reserve Bank bags. NGC had images of some of them. I know someone who has seen the empty bags.
If these coins had been offered raw in Coin World, then I would agree that the presumption would be against them. But let's not forget the very powerful evidence of the NGC slabs themselves, which the owner provided to us by having the coins submitted at his expense.
Now, does "fanofcoins" have any actual evidence that comes close to the weight of NGC's collective judgment on ONE THOUSAND FOUR HUNDRED slabs ??? I think not. But if he does, I'd like details. These false accusations regarding the BC coins impugn NGC, Superior, the many dealers who believed in these coins and bought them for inventory, and the many more collectors who now own them. As the authenticity of coins in my collection is being challenged, as well as the judgment of both NGC and Superior, I think the challenger needs to step up with more than just words. >>
I agree that, in a situation such as this, it's important for someone making such a strong claim to supply some form of justification if they wish to be taken seriously.
Although NGC's plastic helped to add confidence for buyers that the toning was legitimate, it ultimately doesn't prove much. It's undeniable that TPGs have gotten things wrong in the past. Graders make judgements based on the appearance of the coin, correct? If the coin's toning has an authentic look, then it's likely to get in a holder. I mean to imply nothing here--but if the BC coins had been artificially toned, but looked legitimate, then what's to stop them from getting in a holder?
I think this thread has shown that there really isn't any way to prove or disprove the legitimacy of the BC hoard.
Do you really think NGC would risk their entire business by falsely certifying 1400 AT coins?
am i the only one who got a chuckle from that?
we have coin doctors admitting they commonly get their coins that are AT graded successfully.. why in the world would i think that a TPG has any credibility when it comes to toning?
big fat LOL.
authenticity the coin is real, is one thing.. toning is another. they have been proven time and time again to slab AT coins. they have no credibility when it comes to that.
Comments
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
Ren
That's the most I've ever seen you post.
The following images slightly under-represent the vibrancy and luster of the coins, which remains absolutely unchanged. By the way, I have actually used spectrophotometers, colorimeters, and reflectivity densitometers (although not on coins). Some scientific measurements with these types of instruments over time would put an end to speculation about the toning fading out.
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i> Some scientific measurements with these types of instruments over time would put an end to speculation about the toning fading out.
>>
No, it would just put an end to speculation for the pieces that you own.
You know a lot more about this topic than I do, but if you put aside the scientific aspect of this and look at it strictly from a historical standpoint, it raises a lot of questions. The coins appeared out of nowhere with little or no documented past at a time when the toning fad was around it's apex. They were some of the most wildly colored pieces the numismatic community has ever seen. They were sold over a relatively short period of time, and now some people are claiming that the toning is changing in their holders.
Their only claim to legitimacy is the fact that they follow the normal patterns of bag toning.
Thanks... although the real truth is that I'm a slave to the guitar as well...
<< <i>Mine haven't faded one lumen, value unit, chromon, CSS unit, or saturation point. Here are two in PCGS plastic, as bright today as when I acquired them, just like every other naturally toned rainbow Morgan that I own. I have owned a couple of bum AT coins over the years that turned in the holders, but these are absolutely nowhere near that category. By the way, the questions about the actual provenance of the BC coins are typicals of MANY coin hoards and consignments. Very often, an intermediary who bought the coins for a cheap price (i.e. ripped off the original owner) will obfuscate the provenance to avoid the appearance of impropriety (i.e. avoid getting caught). In the case of BC, I suspect the purchaser of the nine original sealed mint bags made an absolute killing when these were auctioned off. The source/seller of those nine bags got screwed, no doubt. It is realities like that which cause provenance/hisotry to become obscured. That does not, however, speak to the authenticity of the coins, which in my view are beyond question - based on having looked at ALL OF THEM in four auction lot viewings.
The following images slightly under-represent the vibrancy and luster of the coins, which remains absolutely unchanged. By the way, I have actually used spectrophotometers, colorimeters, and reflectivity densitometers (although not on coins). Some scientific measurements with these types of instruments over time would put an end to speculation about the toning fading out.
Check out Sunnywoods registry set of toned Morgans,and also his secondary set.He just might know a tad more than most about toned Morgans,and i probably own a number that would fit right in,and i do NOT have a chemistry background,but a pretty good eye for the real deal.JMO
<< <i>No, it would just put an end to speculation for the pieces that you own. >>
excellent point. is it possible the hoard was mixed? maybe some of the vibrant beauties were NT and some others came from a different source.
<< <i>I have actually used spectrophotometers, colorimeters, and reflectivity densitometers >>
anyone near Rochester NY? maybe bring some coins to RIT and have the measurements recorded. return every couple of months and check them again. they have the equipment and could offer a non-bias scientific analysis over time.
<< <i>I have no dog in this "exchange", however I do find it quite interesting that no one involved here has pointed out the demerits of examining coins prior to purchase, such as those discussed here, under the extremely deceptive effects of the sodium vapor lights so often utilized in venues used for numismatic bourses. This form of lighting IMHO always enhances the actual quality of the surface of silver coins, wether toned or not. I doubt that any of the owners of BC Morgans have sodium vapor lamps in their homes or privacy rooms at the bank where the SDB is located.
Thats why you should always ask if you can take the coin outside for another look under different lighting, or ask for return privileges if the coin disappoints after you leave the bourse..
The Battle Creek coins were of the same character as the famed Continental Bank hoard coins in the early 90's. Many of us believe that the nine Battle Creek bags may have come from that hoard originally. There were (2) bags of 1885, (3) each of 1886 and 1887, and (1) of 1904-O. Unfortunately there weren't as many toners out of the 1904-O bag. "Battle Creek" is of course a random name given to the 1400 coins that had color, out of the 9000 coins in the nine bags.
The above information I have on extremely good authority. I think what may have happened is that the nine bags somehow "escaped" out of the Continental Bank hoard, and were put away for 12 years. Sometimes, the provenance is deliberately made murky to cover the tracks of transactions that should not have occurred. That is my theory on the "Battle Creek" coins. Others have claimed that the nine bags were held by another bank. There have been lengthy threads on this subject previously. The subject of he legitimacy and origin of the BC coins has been thrashed to death. Those of us who believed in the coins, however, had no qualms about stepping up and buying the ones we liked.
At one point I did ask whether it was possible that, given the opportunity that the "Battle Creek" toners presented for making a big splash at auction, perhaps other pieces were added to the mix. I raised this question because the sheer variety of toning seemed overwhelming for nine bags of coins. I even raised the question as to whether some AT coins could have been thrown in. (I mention this only to demonstrate that I am not blindly supportive of any one theory, but rather, I try to draw my conclusions based on facts and reason.) However, after much discussion with various individuals involved in the auctioning and the grading, I discarded that idea. I do believe that all the coins came from the same source. Further, some very experienced dealers who have physically opened hundreds of original Morgan bags during the 70's and 80's commented to me that it was not impossible to have that kind of variety coming out of a bag.
By the way, there is nothing new about assigning names and meaningless "pedigrees" to sets, groups of coins, auction consignments, etc. How many times have we seen hastily assembled groups of wholesale inventory coins dumped at auction under some fancy sounding name? That doesn't mean that the coins themselves are not legitimate. In the case of the Battle Creek coins, the idea of a pedigree is more legitimate, as the coins did apparently all come from one original group of mint bags. The name provides an easy point of reference to this particular group of coins, and that is quite useful.
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
Certain active dealers in these coins who abruptly stopped dealing in them right around the time certain info was available. I was also told flat out by one particular dealer why he stopped dealing in them.
Still, the coins may be 100% NT and the info floated incorrect. Every buyer needs to make up their own mind as to whether the coins are acceptable for themselves. If they are pretty, then NT or AT does not matter, IMHO.
P.S. "if they are pretty then NT or AT doesn't matter IMHO" .... yeah, it does, to most of us. One of the things that makes toned Morgans special is that certain types of the characteristic toning - well-separated banded rainbow toners, textile toners, end-rollers - have very well documented natural origins.
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
One of the controversies was the award of the NGC star to all of those coins. It certainly appeared as though NGC had cut a deal to hand out the star in return for getting the group. I was later told by NGC that it was the other way around - any coins that did not get the star were excluded from the group that were given the name "Battle Creek Collection." The owner, through NGC and Superior as agent, decided to market only the coins with color that got a star as "Battle Creek" coins. So that appeared to resolve any questions about NGC's award of the "star" designation.
Here's a link to more info on the story behind the Battle Creek coins:
Link to newmismatist's "The Real Battle Creek Story" thread on TCCS Boards
P.S. According to this story, they were sealed Federal Reserve Bank bags from the 1920's, not U.S. Mint bags, a slight distinction. newmismatist speculates that this explains the small number of 1904-O dollars in the deal. My info was that there was one bag of 1904-O, but newmismatist had it right from the owner.
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>who claims to have physically opened the bags that contained the Battle Creek Hoard coins?? who was the owner(s) that submitted them to NGC?? >>
I know who opened the bags and I know who submitted them to NGC for grading. If this individual wishes to relinquish his (or her) anonymity he (or she) will do so. If not I respect this individuals right to remain anonymous and so should you. The bags were original and the toning is original. In other words this is the real deal. Anyone who is genuinely knowledgeable in regard to bag toned Morgan dollars wouldn't need to know the provenance to determine the originality of the coins.
Mikey
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False! I saw hundreds of the Contenental Illinois hoard coins back in the 1980's and also looked at each and every coin in the Superior 2005 sale, and although 20 years seperated the two, I can say that they did not look anything alike.
I am not making any claims one way on another about the Battle Creek coins.
BTW, Newmismatist posted this back in 2006:
By the way - the Dealer who bought the hoard of unopened bags thinks very highly of TCCS
If you want to know who the dealer is, just look who got BIG in 2006. They either went from small to big, big to bigger, or left the business altogether.
<< <i>112 posts? That's it? Come on - this thing is good for 500 at least. Here's Gmarguli's post from ATS [responding why he thinks they aren't NT]:
Certain active dealers in these coins who abruptly stopped dealing in them right around the time certain info was available. I was also told flat out by one particular dealer why he stopped dealing in them.
Still, the coins may be 100% NT and the info floated incorrect. Every buyer needs to make up their own mind as to whether the coins are acceptable for themselves. If they are pretty, then NT or AT does not matter, IMHO. >>
Indeed!!!
Purple copper gets reemed a new a$$, yet toned Morgans get a pass. Just goes to show the power of a larger market segment with greater financial backing.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
All I want to know is whether my son's coin is changing color or not, and in time, I will have the answer. It will not matter who allegedly opened the bag or the tubes or Pandora's box or whatever. There is no way I would sell it now and miss out all the fun if it does turn. For me, if it is turning it's no big deal. It might be a bigger deal to other parties. Hopefully, for the sake of numismatics, it will stay as it is.
How many years have the grading services acquiesced to the Buffalo nickel handiwork of Nick Ciunci, for example?
That's a very interesting bit of information.
<< <i>i worked at a company that handled all the battlecreek morgans as soon as they were made. i personally handled every single coin in that collection, including the ones that did not get slabbed. i can tell you with some degree of certainty that they are AT. >>
<< <i>i worked at a company that handled all the battlecreek morgans as soon as they were made. i personally handled every single coin in that collection, including the ones that did not get slabbed. i can tell you with some degree of certainty that they are AT. >>
That's a rather bold statement. I'd be interested to hear more...
<< <i>Purple copper gets reemed a new a$$, yet toned Morgans get a pass. Just goes to show the power of a larger market segment with greater financial backing. >>
Ren
Russ, NCNE
As an owner of ~30 BC coins I am quite happy to say that yesterday I was at the bank getting a 1957-P Franklin out to compare to a possible new purchase. While at the bank by chance (it was on top of the box of Franklins I needed to access) I looked at a box of BC coins and again thought to myself how nice they looked... nice and vibrant and fun. The coins that I looked at all appeared the same to me as they had 2 to 3 years ago when I first saw them. Also, FWIW, I often will keep a couple BC's at home switching them in and out from the safe deposit box for variety and they all appear the same to me as when I first purchased them.
If you think the BC coins are AT then don't buy them. If you think they are NT then pay what you think is a reasonable price for the coin that you are considering purchasing. I'm quite happy with my BC's and plan to hold on to them and enjoy them, which I thought was the whole reason people become coin collectors in the first place.
U.S. Type Set
Ren
<< <i>i worked at a company that handled all the battlecreek morgans as soon as they were made. i personally handled every single coin in that collection, including the ones that did not get slabbed. i can tell you with some degree of certainty that they are AT. >>
Oh, is that so? Who are you and to which company are you referring? Give us a rundown on your numismatic credentials. I'm sure you must have many years experience in the toned dollar market. Identify yourself so we can all know who it is that is pronouncing (with some degree of certainty) that the Battle Creek dollars are AT.
BTW, in case you didn't know I am Mike De Falco, a recognized expert in the field with over three decades of battlefield experience. Again, who are you?
Mikey
PS Is there a full moon tonight? That usually brings 'em out...
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<< <i>i worked at a company that handled all the battlecreek morgans as soon as they were made. i personally handled every single coin in that collection, including the ones that did not get slabbed. i can tell you with some degree of certainty that they are AT. >>
BULLSH**
The only companies that handled them all were NGC and Superior. Obviously NGC did not think they were AT. And I can absolutely state that neither did the principals of Superior.
As far as purple copper vs. toned Morgans, there is a difference. Countless thousands of Morgans sat in undisturbed storage for decades, under circumstances that caused substantial numbers of them to acquire unquestionably natural, colorful, indeed spectacular toning. The same cannot be said for copper coins - is there some documented circumstance under which a hoard of purple or blue coppers was created? I think not. Furthermore, there are known coin doctors (whom I could name) who have used MS70 and other reagents to create blue, purple, and red colors on copper - especially Indian cents.
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
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<< <i><< i worked at a company that handled all the battlecreek morgans as soon as they were made. i personally handled every single coin in that collection, including the ones that did not get slabbed. i can tell you with some degree of certainty that they are AT. >>
BULLSH** >>
Ya think?
Russ, NCNE
Puts him in the same category electricians, " only God and electricians can make light" so only God and
Fan's "company" make rainbow toners that can fool the experts.
Rainbow Stars
<< <i>i can say no more due to legal issues. if mr. defalco has been in the business so long he knows who's making the coins. you guys don't have to believe me, just keep an open mind and spend your money wisely. >>
I have no respect whatsoever for anyone who would hide behind an alternate i.d. so why don't you just come out of the closet and reveal your true identity. If you're not willing to do that then keep your pronunciations to yourself. You wouldn't be a disgruntled Superior ex-employee would you? Gee, that might account for all of this nonsense.
Oh, there are no "ifs" when it comes to how long I've been in this business. I founded my first company (Mike De Falco Rare Coins) in November, 1973 and have continuously been a full time rare coin dealer (professional numismatist) since. Again, who are you and what are your credentials? Don't hide behind the claim of "legal issues" -- it's nothing more than cowardice plain and simple.
Mikey
Visit Our Website @ www.numisvision.com
Specializing in DMPL Dollars, MONSTER toners and other Premium Quality U.S. Coins
*** Visit Mike De Falco's NEW Coin Talk Blog! ***
<< <i>i can say no more due to legal issues. if mr. defalco has been in the business so long he knows who's making the coins. you guys don't have to believe me, just keep an open mind and spend your money wisely. >>
I'd think anyone "making" the coins would prefer the utmost secrecy.
I doubt that many would know their identity, regardless of their time in the business of numismatics.
I know how to AT coins after a bit of work and experiments and they would slab, they already have, in fact, and they will never get to the market, NEVER.
I only submitted a peace and a Morgan to see what would happen. I'm not even going to say who slabbed them other than it's one of the big two.
Still, it would take me an awful lot of time and effort, or a lucky combination to copy the BC coins.
If I were to do it to rip off the coin community, I'd never let my identity be known and I wouldn't need or allow anybody else to handle them either.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
I was stunned to see the above statement; a new day has indeed dawned if names like this are becoming general knowledge
<< <i>I have no dog in this "exchange", however I do find it quite interesting that no one involved here has pointed out the demerits of examining coins prior to purchase, such as those discussed here, under the extremely deceptive effects of the sodium vapor lights so often utilized in venues used for numismatic bourses. This form of lighting IMHO always enhances the actual quality of the surface of silver coins, wether toned or not. I doubt that any of the owners of BC Morgans have sodium vapor lamps in their homes or privacy rooms at the bank where the SDB is located.
Deuce is right - an intricately toned coin will look quite different under different light sources ; and with about an unlimited amount of those - a coin could easily look different.
as to the authenticity of the B.C. dollars ; you gotta smell some rat at the fact (whatever the reason) the source of the coins wouldn`t want to be famous.
Show me a coin man with no ego and no desire for the notoriety and fame that would follow the unveiling of original ,rainbow bags of Morgans -
and I will show you A.T. coins
Those of you who have very little experience with beautifully toned Morgans would do much better to stick to your white coins, or your other series in which you have more experience. After all, the vast majority of Morgans have been thrown in a bathtub with Jeweluster, or the like, at some point in their lifetime. No, not all; there are original white coins from those bags as well. But how many of you can tell the difference between an original, naturally white (NW) coin, and a chemically treated, artifically white (AW) dipped coin? I wager very few indeed.
So are all of your white coins NW or AW? I bet most of you who constantly make accusations about AT coins own plenty of chemically altered artificially white coins. I wager there are more artificially white, dipped, chemically de-toned coins out there in TPG holders than there are AT coins.
I'd rather have a naturally and colorfully toned Battle Creek Morgan than an artificially whitened, chemically stripped untoned specimen any day.
By the way, did it ever occur to anyone that NGC put their reputation on the line by slabbing 1400 of those coins? Do you think they would have done that if they weren't quite certain they were NT? Of course they aren't perfect, and the occasional AT coin gets into a holder ... but 1400 coins from one submitter at one time? Come on, people, the folks at NGC probably know a little something about authentication. Even I, whose coins are all in PCGS holders, admit that NGC is pretty good in most respects.
Best,
Sunnywood
P.S. Nobody hates AT coins more than I do ... they diminish the value of my beautifully toned coins. And if there are doubts about the authenticity of toning, it is certainly correct to discuss it openly. However, when endless accusations are are falsely made about a group of coins that has been staunchly vouched for by the top specialists in the area, as well as by NGC, then it's time to get highly irritated ...
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
your knowledge and educational background.
Rainbow Stars
Why is the anonymity of the poster any more or less worthy of protection than the anonymity of the person who opened the bags? And why get so heated up over an obvious alt poster???
<< <i>I have no respect whatsoever for anyone who would hide behind an alternate i.d. so why don't you just come out of the closet and reveal your true identity. If you're not willing to do that then keep your pronunciations to yourself. You wouldn't be a disgruntled Superior ex-employee would you? Gee, that might account for all of this nonsense.
Why is the anonymity of the poster any more or less worthy of protection than the anonymity of the person who opened the bags? And why get so heated up over an obvious alt poster???
If one is going to make such negative pronouncements in regard to the authenticity of the toning on the Battle Creek dollars then he should also be willing to provide to adequate credentials (which in this case would have to include his true identity) to substantiate his claim that that the coins are AT. Because of such negative pronouncements he automatically casts aspersions without just cause upon all those involved with the grading and marketing of these coins -- and that my friend, just isn't right and personally I'm offended by it (a sentiment I sure would be shared by most reasonable men). BTW, I'm not hot -- just a tad annoyed...
Mikey
Visit Our Website @ www.numisvision.com
Specializing in DMPL Dollars, MONSTER toners and other Premium Quality U.S. Coins
*** Visit Mike De Falco's NEW Coin Talk Blog! ***
If one is going to make such positive pronouncements in regard to the authenticity of the toning on the Battle Creek dollars then he should also be willing to provide to adequate credentials (which in this case would have to include his true identity) to substantiate his claim that that the coins are NT
again , except for the changing of two words -this is the exact argument for having the B.C. coins origin's known
First, he had the coins certified by one of the top numismatic authentication companies in the world - NGC. That alone should strongly raise a presumption of authenticity. Do you really think NGC would risk their entire business by falsely certifying 1400 AT coins? Nonsense.
Second, he provided evidence in the form of the empty Federal Reserve Bank bags. NGC had images of some of them. I know someone who has seen the empty bags.
If these coins had been offered raw in Coin World, then I would agree that the presumption would be against them. But let's not forget the very powerful evidence of the NGC slabs themselves, which the owner provided to us by having the coins submitted at his expense.
Now, does "fanofcoins" have any actual evidence that comes close to the weight of NGC's collective judgment on ONE THOUSAND FOUR HUNDRED slabs ??? I think not. But if he does, I'd like details. These false accusations regarding the BC coins impugn NGC, Superior, the many dealers who believed in these coins and bought them for inventory, and the many more collectors who now own them. As the authenticity of coins in my collection is being challenged, as well as the judgment of both NGC and Superior, I think the challenger needs to step up with more than just words.
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
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Wasn't it NGC that slabbed a KNOWN AT peace dollar?
<< <i>On the contrary, PawPaul, the owner of the coins has already provided significant substantiation of the authenticity of the coins. His identity is irrelevant.
First, he had the coins certified by one of the top numismatic authentication companies in the world - NGC. That alone should strongly raise a presumption of authenticity. Do you really think NGC would risk their entire business by falsely certifying 1400 AT coins? Nonsense.
Second, he provided evidence in the form of the empty Federal Reserve Bank bags. NGC had images of some of them. I know someone who has seen the empty bags.
If these coins had been offered raw in Coin World, then I would agree that the presumption would be against them. But let's not forget the very powerful evidence of the NGC slabs themselves, which the owner provided to us by having the coins submitted at his expense.
Now, does "fanofcoins" have any actual evidence that comes close to the weight of NGC's collective judgment on ONE THOUSAND FOUR HUNDRED slabs ??? I think not. But if he does, I'd like details. These false accusations regarding the BC coins impugn NGC, Superior, the many dealers who believed in these coins and bought them for inventory, and the many more collectors who now own them. As the authenticity of coins in my collection is being challenged, as well as the judgment of both NGC and Superior, I think the challenger needs to step up with more than just words. >>
I agree that, in a situation such as this, it's important for someone making such a strong claim to supply some form of justification if they wish to be taken seriously.
Although NGC's plastic helped to add confidence for buyers that the toning was legitimate, it ultimately doesn't prove much. It's undeniable that TPGs have gotten things wrong in the past. Graders make judgements based on the appearance of the coin, correct? If the coin's toning has an authentic look, then it's likely to get in a holder. I mean to imply nothing here--but if the BC coins had been artificially toned, but looked legitimate, then what's to stop them from getting in a holder?
I think this thread has shown that there really isn't any way to prove or disprove the legitimacy of the BC hoard.
am i the only one who got a chuckle from that?
we have coin doctors admitting they commonly get their coins that
are AT graded successfully.. why in the world would i think that a TPG
has any credibility when it comes to toning?
big fat LOL.
authenticity the coin is real, is one thing.. toning is another. they
have been proven time and time again to slab AT coins. they have
no credibility when it comes to that.
"am i the only one who got a chuckle from that?"
Not at all....I am still laughing.
in the sun....I change color.
Camelot