<< <i>As usual, this subject immediately brings upon us dissertations and conjectures that are blatant nonsense and factually false. I will only state that all of my BC Morgans, as well as those owned by dealer and collectors friends of mine, are as vibrantly colorful as ever, and are absolutely unchanged.
Natural toning acquired over very long periods of time in relatively undisturbed storage tends to be quite stable, once the coin is removed from the original environment. Generally, the original environment had to be reactive for the toning to occur; for example, the sulfur in Mint burlap creates a reaction potential, albeit at a low rate that took many years to result in rainbow toning. Once the coin is removed to a less reactive environment (out of the Mint bag and into a slab, for example) the toning is generally quite stable. No, it is not sensitive to light, nor do the molecules dissipate, or other such nonsense. And yes, theoretically, if the reactive agents are strong enough and left for an unlimited amount of time, the toning will eventually become black. But that is irrelevant to the scenario of the BC coins.
The specific and unique form of banded rainbow toning found on select Morgans after decades of storage is particularly stable, in my experience.
I think the only thing that has likely faded are the memories of the observer. The coins themselves have not changed, barring exceptional anvironmental circumstances. Of course, if people got hooked on over-saturated neon fluorescent images of the coins, then they might be surprised later on to look at the actual coins at a later date. Sometimes, the images can be a bit fanciful.
Best, Sunnywood >>
Better worded and dead on what i was about to post,but by another respected collector of toned Morgans.Thanks Sunnywood.
Great coins are not cheap,and cheap coins are not great!
<< <i>For the record, I collect Morgan dollars, but have refused to buy one of the Battle Creek Morgans. And I have a Ph.D. in Chemistry, and have spent roughly 30 years doing assay development work that uses coated metal/glass/plastic surfaces. >>
For the record, that's your loss. If you paid more attention to toned Morgans over a long period of time, you would learn to recognize that some of these coins are genuine masterworks of nature's art. While I have questions about the actual origin, the slabbing, and the marketing of the "Battle Creek" coins, I have none regarding the authenticity of the coins or the toning.
(And, for the record, among other things I was a professional metallurgist for 20 years, and ran a manufacturing operation that specialized in molecular surface treatments of metals, conducted in both vacuum and atmosphere furnaces, ranging from diffusion-bonding to chemical vapor deposition. Our research lab had everything from electropolishing and plating baths to chemical cleaning, acid etching, ultrafine abrasion and micropolishing, high-vacuum furnace chambers, and more.)
Edited to add: by the way, I do not dispute that there are AT coins in the world, or that some forms of AT might either darken or fade over time. But I dispute that this applies to the BC Morgans.
(And, for the record, among other things I was a professional metallurgist for 20 years, and ran a manufacturing operation that specialized in molecular surface treatments of metals, conducted in both vacuum and atmosphere furnaces, ranging from diffusion-bonding to chemical vapor deposition. Our research lab had everything from electropolishing and plating baths to chemical cleaning, acid etching, ultrafine abrasion and micropolishing, high-vacuum furnace chambers, and more.)
>>
So you are saying you know what the heck you are talking about.
Well, yeah, I do. And I'm sure the other gent also knows what he's talking about. But he's missing out on some good stuff if he mistakenly concludes that all beautifully toned coins are suspect.
<< <i>Well, yeah, I do. And I'm sure the other gent also knows what he's talking about. But he's missing out on some good stuff if he mistakenly concludes that all beautifully toned coins are suspect. >>
I agree, I have put a lot of thought into how I want to collect for my albums and no matter how nice the coin is looking at page after page of blast white coins gets kinda boring. I am a big fan of color NT and some AT.
Someone mentioned using warm acentone and I would like to strongly suggest to never heat up acetone! I won't bother adding a "for the record..." about my scientific background, but I think some folks are aware of it, too.
<< <i>As usual, this subject immediately brings upon us dissertations and conjectures that are blatant nonsense and factually false. >>
So those who actually own examples, and have posted that the intensity of the color has diminished over time, are full of crap?
Russ, NCNE >>
I believe your mind can play tricks on you. I also believe that the owners of said coins had an image burned into their memory the moment they closed the safe. Over time, their minds changed that image. When they went back to check out their BC coins, they may believe that the colors had diminished.
<< <i>Someone mentioned using warm acentone and I would like to strongly suggest to never heat up acetone! I won't bother adding a "for the record..." about my scientific background, but I think some folks are aware of it, too. >>
Tom, there is something to be said for natural selection.
When it comes to discussions on toning, I can never differentiate demonstrable fact from assumption. For example, I often read about "sulphur in Mint burlap bags," but I have no idea whether or not the bags were burlap, much less whether or not the burlap contained sulfur (presumably due to method of manufacture). Has anyone ever even performed a chemical analysis of the bags in which Morgans were stored?
<< <i>When it comes to discussions on toning, I can never differentiate demonstrable fact from assumption. For example, I often read about "sulphur in Mint burlap bags," but I have no idea whether or not the bags were burlap, much less whether or not the burlap contained sulfur (presumably due to method of manufacture). Has anyone ever even performed a chemical analysis of the bags in which Morgans were stored? >>
I'll donate a swatch of material from an old mint bag if anyone want to test it.
I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector. Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
<< <i>I'll donate a swatch of material from an old mint bag if anyone want to test it. >>
That might not yield anything definitive. If, as is frequently said, the sulphur content in the bags diminishes as time goes in, the material might be inert.
One point not yet mentioned... Toning is progressive.. and will continue to blackness. Given the original contaminant that caused the toning is removed... the contaminated portion will still degrade. This likely will appear as fading since the 'active' state is diminishing. I certainly hope toner collectors do not think that the color is static - it is not!!! Cheers, RickO
I don't agree with this statement. I think that if you stabilize the environment and eliminate water, toning stabilizes. I'm not a metallurgist, but I'm not ignorant of chemistry either. Toning occurs when a non-metal (sulfur for example) reacts with a metal (silver for example) forming (in this case) silver sulfide or perhaps (if the air were humid) silver sulfate. Those are ionic compounds that form a layer on the surface of the coin. Once the environment around the coin's surface is scrubbed and stabilized, I know of no reason to think that the ionic compounds that define the toned area on the coin will change. Now, my example is valid only if the ionic compound(s) formed is/are not subject to natural decomposition. For example, mercury oxide will, over time, decompose to elemental mercury and molecular oxygen. I am not an expert on silver, but I'm not aware that simple silver-containing ionic compounds are subject to natural decomposition. If you remove the "contaminating environment" and store the coin in a stable environment, I expect that the toning will stabilize. If I'm wrong on this I'll admit to my faulty thinking in fifty years. I'll only be 104 by that time.
There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation. One is by the sword. The other is by debt. –John Adams, 1826
IGWT, I have in fact played with the fabric of original Mint bags. We often use the term "burlap" to describe these bags. Generally, burlap is a coarse weave of jute or hemp fibers in their natural state (i.e. unbleached, untreated). If one thinks of natural brown-colored bags of coffee beans, for example, that is true burlap. Burlap can also be woven from treated fibers that are bleached through a chemical process to create a lighter color fabric that is also called "canvas." Additionally, "canvas" can mean a coarse-woven cotton fabric. So the terms "burlap" and "canvas" overlap when they both refer to a heavy-duty fabric made from bleached jute or hemp fibers. And that is the material used for pre-1921 Morgan dollar bags, as far as I can tell.
(The situation is actually more complicated than this, as there are different species of jute & hemp, etc.)
Just as natural paper products are brown in color, and white paper products are the result of a bleaching process, the same is true of burlap/canvas. The chemical treaments used often involve sodium hydroxide, chlorinated compounds, and dyes. Sulfur-based dyes are quite common in the production of jute fabrics.
I believe the bags I have seen for 1881-S and 1886 Morgans were treated, bleached burlap. The 1921 Morgan dollar bag I saw more recently appeared to be cotton canvas, and a finer weave. I soaked a bit of the 1881-S bag fabric in a mixture of distilled water and isopropanol, and then tested the liquid for the presence of chlorine and sulfur. I found a distinct presence of sulfur, and a trace of chlorine.
Of course, if people got hooked on over-saturated neon fluorescent images of the coins, then they might be surprised later on to look at the actual coins at a later date. Sometimes, the images can be a bit fanciful.
This is quite possible, which is one reason I hesitate to state with any degree of confidence that the toning has changed.
In the original image of the coin, there appears to be some purplish color overlapping the "O" in "DOLLARS" on the reverse. As I look at the coin today, it looks like that yucky brown toning that Morgans sometimes have. Again, the photograph may have been optimistic.
My recollection was that the colors smoothly blended into one another. When I look at the coin now, it appears that there is a dark band of coloring, followed by a relatively colorless band, followed by a darker band. It's just not how remember the coin looking.
It's still a decent coin, and I paid a relatively small premium for the toning/pedigree. More importantly, my son still likes it, and if it turns black or something, it's his problem, not mine.
Text There are some that may say 'baloney', and of course, I respect their opinion... but like grading.. much of that said, is opinion. the above article (and many, many others, not to mention common sense chemistry and metallurgy) say that toning is progressive. That being said, if you remove it from the most active environment, toning will slow. However, unless hermetically sealed in a nonreactive container, it is still subject to air and the contaminants (i.e. sulfur, oxygen, chlorides etc) with it. Slabs are NOT hermetically sealed. Toning IS progressive.... and is a reaction with the upper atomic layer of silver and other metals. As long as the coin is exposed to the atmosphere, the toning is progressive - some may argue the pace, but NOT the fact. So, I respectfully say "Eat your baloney." Cheers, RickO
<< <i>Text There are some that may say 'baloney', and of course, I respect their opinion... but like grading.. much of that said, is opinion. the above article (and many, many others, not to mention common sense chemistry and metallurgy) say that toning is progressive. That being said, if you remove it from the most active environment, toning will slow. However, unless hermetically sealed in a nonreactive container, it is still subject to air and the contaminants (i.e. sulfur, oxygen, chlorides etc) with it. Slabs are NOT hermetically sealed. Toning IS progressive.... and is a reaction with the upper atomic layer of silver and other metals. As long as the coin is exposed to the atmosphere, the toning is progressive - some may argue the pace, but NOT the fact. So, I respectfully say "Eat your baloney." Cheers, RickO >>
Baloney squared. The premise of your original statement was the coin is removed from the contaminant and placed in a PCGS holder. No contaminant, no progression in toning in any short period of time.
<< One point not yet mentioned... Toning is progressive.. and will continue to blackness. Given the original contaminant that caused the toning is removed... the contaminated portion will still degrade. This likely will appear as fading since the 'active' state is diminishing. I certainly hope toner collectors do not think that the color is static - it is not!!! Cheers, RickO >>
I can see we are into hair splitting ..... fine. If you MUST be right, so be it. I strongly suggest you pursue further enlightenment on the topic at hand, rather than personal 'oneupsmanship'... Cheers, RickO
same as TDN, remove one of the reactants and the toning stops..................period. also, whatever contaminant there is on a coin's surface can only react until it's used up and formed the compound many have mentioned. after that poiunt, how can the tone or color change continue?? these toned coins mentioned by members like Sunnywood appear to be stable while those mentioned by others appear to be unstable, continuing to tone. if these coins all came out of the same hoard, if they all had the same relative time in the prescence of the contaminantys which caused the tone, why would some be stable and others continue to change??
certainly it could be that the ones still changing still have something on the surface that's causing the change. i'm just curious where it came from and why some coins stored together have somethingf on them and others don't. of course, there are alternate theories, but you already know those, don't you ricko!!!
<< <i>I can see we are into hair splitting ..... fine. If you MUST be right, so be it. I strongly suggest you pursue further enlightenment on the topic at hand, rather than personal 'oneupsmanship'... Cheers, RickO >>
With all due respect, when you make definitive statements in support of your own agenda expect to get called on them when you're wrong.
All I have to add on the subject is that I have many toned Morgans and have noticed no difference over time in them, they seem quite stable.
There are a couple of particular coins that were virtually identical in the blue and purple hues compared to the BC monster I own.
Compared side by side now, it's clear top me that the BC coin has faded somewhat, not a great deal, mind you, but there is no doubt that it is no longer as vibrant as it was in the beginning.
Yes, I have good eyesight and I've collected toners for quite a while. I don't consider myself an expert by any stretch, unless compared to the general public.
I have no doubt whatsoever that the BC coin has indeed faded a few degrees, call it slightly fainter, not as bright, not as vibrant, not as deep, chose your phrase.
That's simply the way that it is. The fact that I'm not the only one to notice this tends to make me believe even more that I am correct in my observation.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
Toning IS progressive.... and is a reaction with the upper atomic layer of silver and other metals. As long as the coin is exposed to the atmosphere, the toning is progressive - some may argue the pace, but NOT the fact.
I agree with this statement. IF the coins are kept in the original atmosphere they will continue to tone and eventually turn black. Slabbing at PCGS will isolate the coin's surface, and since the slabs are not air tight, only slow the process to whatever degree - you still have gas exchange going on. My point in this discussion has been that storage of a slabbed coin in an Intercept Shield should effectively remove reactive non-metals (the "toning agent", likely sulfur). The coins surface will still be exposed to a "scrubbed" atmosphere which is 78% nitrogen and 21% oxygen and 1% other.
There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation. One is by the sword. The other is by debt. –John Adams, 1826
-- I soaked a bit of the 1881-S bag fabric in a mixture of distilled water and isopropanol, and then tested the liquid for the presence of chlorine and sulfur. I found a distinct presence of sulfur, and a trace of chlorine." --
Thanks, Sunnywood. A fact a day keeps allegations of doctoring away . . . .
Perhaps the thing that makes me the most suspicious of the authenticity of the toning on the BC coins is that fact that there really isn't much information about where they came from, the conditions they were stored in, why they were there, etc (at least that I'm aware of). The BC coins seem to have just appeared...
I have no doubt whatsoever that the BC coin has indeed faded a few degrees, call it slightly fainter, not as bright, not as vibrant, not as deep, chose your phrase.
That's simply the way that it is. The fact that I'm not the only one to notice this tends to make me believe even more that I am correct in my observation.
I am still not 100% sure, but it is reassuring that there are at least a couple other nuts with failing eyesight who have made the same observation.
this link tells a little about the BC Hoard. it should be easy enough to locate more information on the net, particularly right here, just search Battle Creek.
<< <i>I have no doubt whatsoever that the BC coin has indeed faded a few degrees, call it slightly fainter, not as bright, not as vibrant, not as deep, chose your phrase.
That's simply the way that it is. The fact that I'm not the only one to notice this tends to make me believe even more that I am correct in my observation.
I am still not 100% sure, but it is reassuring that there are at least a couple other nuts with failing eyesight who have made the same observation. >>
Who are the other two nuts to which you are referring? Perhaps all remembrances of the coin were done under different lighting conditions. It defies common logic that one of several thousand coins all stored similarly has changed when there seems to be no reports of other similar observations about coins in the same hoard. Not to say that somehow the coin couldn't change, only that its very unlikely IMO.
The Battle Creek Collection/Hoard, by the title alone, leaves many questions unanswered. It seems, that the title gives it provenance. That, in itself, is ridiculous. The collector community has fervent defenders in those who own them and are fans of toning. Then come the neutral group, who question the color and the history - undocumented - at least to common public knowledge. Then begin the arguements regarding AT or NT. Valid points of discussion - certainly, since the documented, attested history is non-existent. These points of dissension have been extant since the coins became known. I have been drawn into an unsavory exchange regarding toning with a prominent board .member... I am sorry for this. He is eminently qualified in numismatics. I am qualified in metallurgy and chemistry.. and have worked in the industry for many years. I will not disparage him.. lack of knowledge and held opinions are hard to change. Knowledge, and the furtherence of said objective, has been my lifelong objective - some, it seems, are content with the status quo. Evidence would 'seem' to indicate, that some of the BC group are 'changing'... their much heralded hues are dimming. This would indicate (in such a short time frame) the possibility of 'enhanced' toning efforts. I would hope not, for those who cherish these coins. However, intitial, and now mounting evidence, indicates we may be witnessing the unveiling of a hoax. I hope not. Admittedly, I am not a fan of toning. That being said, I am not predjudiced against it... I often joke about dipping - however, it must be performed judiciously and not without forethought. Each to his/her own. What I have said in previous posts, is true. Toning is progressive. An environment that is changed, to be less aggressive, will slow the phenomena. Unless it is hermetic - in a vacuum, - it will continue, however slowly. Slabs do not meet this criteria.. and each collectors storage - be it SDB or safe or drawer - will introduce it's own unique envronment, and with it.. the progression of toning. Many, many articles have been written here and in numismatic journals regarding toning and the science behind it. Research it. Cheers, RickO
...........................I purchased two Battle Creek Morgans well over a year ago for my son. He likes colorful Morgans--he must get that from his mother. At any rate, we had his whole coin box out the other day, and as I was looking through his coins.......................
one aspect of this discussion which i find perplexing is the notion that we each look at our coins at regular intervals and nobody with these Battle Creek pedigreed coins has noticed a change prior till this post by RYK. by the above admission, Robert seems not have been viewing these coins as a matter of routine, but when he did check them out after some indefinite period it seemd clear that one looked somewhat different to him.
considering that there are approximately 1,400 BC's out there how many do you think haven't been looked at more than once or twice since they were purchased?? how many owners thought a coin looked a bit different but sloughed it off or just never said anything?? what about the owner who does indeed look at his/her BC's regularly and hasn't noticed the subtle change due to the familiarity of looking at them weekly??
i would be interested in seeing some pictures of the coins in the catalog or in some archives vs. those same coins today. that would answer much we question.
I will say that it is possible that we idealize the appearance of our attractive coins in our mind, and perhaps when we got to look at them after not seeing them for a period of time, the coins are not as attractive as we thought.
For what little it's worth, my experience with toners has been opposite- I've put them away (them being morgan toners and some franklin proof toners) and have gone back later to find them even more intense than I remember. A few I've been convince have had their colors deepen a bit with time, which would make sense to me. But I haven't bought AT coins though, so that may provide a different experience..
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
Comments
<< <i>As usual, this subject immediately brings upon us dissertations and conjectures that are blatant nonsense and factually false. I will only state that all of my BC Morgans, as well as those owned by dealer and collectors friends of mine, are as vibrantly colorful as ever, and are absolutely unchanged.
Natural toning acquired over very long periods of time in relatively undisturbed storage tends to be quite stable, once the coin is removed from the original environment. Generally, the original environment had to be reactive for the toning to occur; for example, the sulfur in Mint burlap creates a reaction potential, albeit at a low rate that took many years to result in rainbow toning. Once the coin is removed to a less reactive environment (out of the Mint bag and into a slab, for example) the toning is generally quite stable. No, it is not sensitive to light, nor do the molecules dissipate, or other such nonsense. And yes, theoretically, if the reactive agents are strong enough and left for an unlimited amount of time, the toning will eventually become black. But that is irrelevant to the scenario of the BC coins.
The specific and unique form of banded rainbow toning found on select Morgans after decades of storage is particularly stable, in my experience.
I think the only thing that has likely faded are the memories of the observer. The coins themselves have not changed, barring exceptional anvironmental circumstances. Of course, if people got hooked on over-saturated neon fluorescent images of the coins, then they might be surprised later on to look at the actual coins at a later date. Sometimes, the images can be a bit fanciful.
Best,
Sunnywood >>
Better worded and dead on what i was about to post,but by another respected collector of toned Morgans.Thanks Sunnywood.
<< <i>For the record, I collect Morgan dollars, but have refused to buy one of the Battle Creek Morgans. And I have a Ph.D. in Chemistry, and have spent roughly 30 years doing assay development work that uses coated metal/glass/plastic surfaces. >>
For the record, that's your loss. If you paid more attention to toned Morgans over a long period of time, you would learn to recognize that some of these coins are genuine masterworks of nature's art. While I have questions about the actual origin, the slabbing, and the marketing of the "Battle Creek" coins, I have none regarding the authenticity of the coins or the toning.
(And, for the record, among other things I was a professional metallurgist for 20 years, and ran a manufacturing operation that specialized in molecular surface treatments of metals, conducted in both vacuum and atmosphere furnaces, ranging from diffusion-bonding to chemical vapor deposition. Our research lab had everything from electropolishing and plating baths to chemical cleaning, acid etching, ultrafine abrasion and micropolishing, high-vacuum furnace chambers, and more.)
Edited to add: by the way, I do not dispute that there are AT coins in the world, or that some forms of AT might either darken or fade over time. But I dispute that this applies to the BC Morgans.
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>
(And, for the record, among other things I was a professional metallurgist for 20 years, and ran a manufacturing operation that specialized in molecular surface treatments of metals, conducted in both vacuum and atmosphere furnaces, ranging from diffusion-bonding to chemical vapor deposition. Our research lab had everything from electropolishing and plating baths to chemical cleaning, acid etching, ultrafine abrasion and micropolishing, high-vacuum furnace chambers, and more.)
So you are saying you know what the heck you are talking about.
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>Well, yeah, I do. And I'm sure the other gent also knows what he's talking about. But he's missing out on some good stuff if he mistakenly concludes that all beautifully toned coins are suspect. >>
I agree, I have put a lot of thought into how I want to collect for my albums and no matter how nice the coin is looking at page after page of blast white coins gets kinda boring. I am a big fan of color NT and some AT.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>Someone mentioned using warm acentone and I would like to strongly suggest to never heat up acetone! >>
So, Tom, are you saying it might be a good idea if I put out my cigarette before using it?
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>Someone mentioned using warm acentone and I would like to strongly suggest to never heat up acetone! >>
So, Tom, are you saying it might be a good idea if I put out my cigarette before using it?
Russ, NCNE >>
<< <i>
<< <i>As usual, this subject immediately brings upon us dissertations and conjectures that are blatant nonsense and factually false. >>
So those who actually own examples, and have posted that the intensity of the color has diminished over time, are full of crap?
Russ, NCNE >>
I believe your mind can play tricks on you. I also believe that the owners of said coins had an image burned into their memory the moment they closed the safe. Over time, their minds changed that image. When they went back to check out their BC coins, they may believe that the colors had diminished.
<< <i>Someone mentioned using warm acentone and I would like to strongly suggest to never heat up acetone! I won't bother adding a "for the record..." about my scientific background, but I think some folks are aware of it, too. >>
Tom, there is something to be said for natural selection.
<< <i>
<< <i>Someone mentioned using warm acentone and I would like to strongly suggest to never heat up acetone! >>
So, Tom, are you saying it might be a good idea if I put out my cigarette before using it?
Russ, NCNE >>
Don't put your cigarette out in it.
<< <i>When it comes to discussions on toning, I can never differentiate demonstrable fact from assumption. For example, I often read about "sulphur in Mint burlap bags," but I have no idea whether or not the bags were burlap, much less whether or not the burlap contained sulfur (presumably due to method of manufacture). Has anyone ever even performed a chemical analysis of the bags in which Morgans were stored? >>
I'll donate a swatch of material from an old mint bag if anyone want to test it.
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
<< <i>I'll donate a swatch of material from an old mint bag if anyone want to test it. >>
That might not yield anything definitive. If, as is frequently said, the sulphur content in the bags diminishes as time goes in, the material might be inert.
Russ, NCME
Herb
I don't agree with this statement. I think that if you stabilize the environment and eliminate water, toning stabilizes. I'm not a metallurgist, but I'm not ignorant of chemistry either. Toning occurs when a non-metal (sulfur for example) reacts with a metal (silver for example) forming (in this case) silver sulfide or perhaps (if the air were humid) silver sulfate. Those are ionic compounds that form a layer on the surface of the coin. Once the environment around the coin's surface is scrubbed and stabilized, I know of no reason to think that the ionic compounds that define the toned area on the coin will change. Now, my example is valid only if the ionic compound(s) formed is/are not subject to natural decomposition. For example, mercury oxide will, over time, decompose to elemental mercury and molecular oxygen. I am not an expert on silver, but I'm not aware that simple silver-containing ionic compounds are subject to natural decomposition. If you remove the "contaminating environment" and store the coin in a stable environment, I expect that the toning will stabilize. If I'm wrong on this I'll admit to my faulty thinking in fifty years. I'll only be 104 by that time.
–John Adams, 1826
(The situation is actually more complicated than this, as there are different species of jute & hemp, etc.)
Just as natural paper products are brown in color, and white paper products are the result of a bleaching process, the same is true of burlap/canvas. The chemical treaments used often involve sodium hydroxide, chlorinated compounds, and dyes. Sulfur-based dyes are quite common in the production of jute fabrics.
I believe the bags I have seen for 1881-S and 1886 Morgans were treated, bleached burlap. The 1921 Morgan dollar bag I saw more recently appeared to be cotton canvas, and a finer weave. I soaked a bit of the 1881-S bag fabric in a mixture of distilled water and isopropanol, and then tested the liquid for the presence of chlorine and sulfur. I found a distinct presence of sulfur, and a trace of chlorine.
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
This is quite possible, which is one reason I hesitate to state with any degree of confidence that the toning has changed.
In the original image of the coin, there appears to be some purplish color overlapping the "O" in "DOLLARS" on the reverse. As I look at the coin today, it looks like that yucky brown toning that Morgans sometimes have. Again, the photograph may have been optimistic.
My recollection was that the colors smoothly blended into one another. When I look at the coin now, it appears that there is a dark band of coloring, followed by a relatively colorless band, followed by a darker band. It's just not how remember the coin looking.
It's still a decent coin, and I paid a relatively small premium for the toning/pedigree. More importantly, my son still likes it, and if it turns black or something, it's his problem, not mine.
Camelot
<< <i>Text There are some that may say 'baloney', and of course, I respect their opinion... but like grading.. much of that said, is opinion. the above article (and many, many others, not to mention common sense chemistry and metallurgy) say that toning is progressive. That being said, if you remove it from the most active environment, toning will slow. However, unless hermetically sealed in a nonreactive container, it is still subject to air and the contaminants (i.e. sulfur, oxygen, chlorides etc) with it. Slabs are NOT hermetically sealed. Toning IS progressive.... and is a reaction with the upper atomic layer of silver and other metals. As long as the coin is exposed to the atmosphere, the toning is progressive - some may argue the pace, but NOT the fact. So, I respectfully say "Eat your baloney." Cheers, RickO >>
Great article.
<< One point not yet mentioned... Toning is progressive.. and will continue to blackness. Given the original contaminant that caused the toning is removed... the contaminated portion will still degrade. This likely will appear as fading since the 'active' state is diminishing. I certainly hope toner collectors do not think that the color is static - it is not!!! Cheers, RickO >>
certainly it could be that the ones still changing still have something on the surface that's causing the change. i'm just curious where it came from and why some coins stored together have somethingf on them and others don't. of course, there are alternate theories, but you already know those, don't you ricko!!!
slabbed, that have remained color stable for almost 10 years.
toning, especially on silver coinage ,will tend to provide a more
stable layer of molecular silver oxide or sulfide then the raw silver
itself. While it may be true that toning will over a really looonnnggg
period of time continue the process, the slabbing of a coin in a stable
atmosphere should reduce such changes to cosmic slow rate of time.
A rapid change in slabbed coinage, may well indicate that the toning may
have originally been accentuated or accelerated by means other then
mother nature. Somewhat difficult to say without molecular inspection, but
certainly a possibility. Being paranoid does not rule out the chance, that folks
are really out to screw you when it comes to coins, toning, grade or doctoring.
Camelot
Sulfur & half life
Appears that most isotopes of sulfur are stable, although one has a half life of only 3 months.
<< <i>I can see we are into hair splitting ..... fine. If you MUST be right, so be it. I strongly suggest you pursue further enlightenment on the topic at hand, rather than personal 'oneupsmanship'... Cheers, RickO >>
With all due respect, when you make definitive statements in support of your own agenda expect to get called on them when you're wrong.
Ah, Sulfur-35, created in the upper atmosphere by the spallation of argon atoms by cosmic rays. Did the Battle Creek Morgans tone in space?
My World Coin Type Set
There are a couple of particular coins that were virtually identical in the blue and purple hues compared to the BC monster I own.
Compared side by side now, it's clear top me that the BC coin has faded somewhat, not a great deal, mind you, but there is no doubt that it is no longer as vibrant as it was in the beginning.
Yes, I have good eyesight and I've collected toners for quite a while. I don't consider myself an expert by any stretch, unless compared to the general public.
I have no doubt whatsoever that the BC coin has indeed faded a few degrees, call it slightly fainter, not as bright, not as vibrant, not as deep, chose your phrase.
That's simply the way that it is. The fact that I'm not the only one to notice this tends to make me believe even more that I am correct in my observation.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
I agree with this statement. IF the coins are kept in the original atmosphere they will continue to tone and eventually turn black. Slabbing at PCGS will isolate the coin's surface, and since the slabs are not air tight, only slow the process to whatever degree - you still have gas exchange going on. My point in this discussion has been that storage of a slabbed coin in an Intercept Shield should effectively remove reactive non-metals (the "toning agent", likely sulfur). The coins surface will still be exposed to a "scrubbed" atmosphere which is 78% nitrogen and 21% oxygen and 1% other.
–John Adams, 1826
Thanks, Sunnywood. A fact a day keeps allegations of doctoring away . . . .
Perhaps the thing that makes me the most suspicious of the authenticity of the toning on the BC coins is that fact that there really isn't much information about where they came from, the conditions they were stored in, why they were there, etc (at least that I'm aware of). The BC coins seem to have just appeared...
That's simply the way that it is. The fact that I'm not the only one to notice this tends to make me believe even more that I am correct in my observation.
I am still not 100% sure, but it is reassuring that there are at least a couple other nuts with failing eyesight who have made the same observation.
JJ
<< <i>When was the battlecreek hoard released?
JJ >>
soon after they finished coloring them
<< <i>
Ah, Sulfur-35, created in the upper atmosphere by the spallation of argon atoms by cosmic rays. Did the Battle Creek Morgans tone in space? >>
Why don't you tell me, professor!!
<< <i>Have any of the Battle Creek pieces been successfully crossed into PCGS plastic? >>
I believe that indeed some have been crossed.
<< <i>I have no doubt whatsoever that the BC coin has indeed faded a few degrees, call it slightly fainter, not as bright, not as vibrant, not as deep, chose your phrase.
That's simply the way that it is. The fact that I'm not the only one to notice this tends to make me believe even more that I am correct in my observation.
I am still not 100% sure, but it is reassuring that there are at least a couple other nuts with failing eyesight who have made the same observation.
Who are the other two nuts to which you are referring? Perhaps all remembrances of the coin were done under different lighting conditions. It defies common logic that one of several thousand coins all stored similarly has changed when there seems to be no reports of other similar observations about coins in the same hoard. Not to say that somehow the coin couldn't change, only that its very unlikely IMO.
<< <i>Have any of the Battle Creek pieces been successfully crossed into PCGS plastic? >>
Yes they have.
Evidence would 'seem' to indicate, that some of the BC group are 'changing'... their much heralded hues are dimming. This would indicate (in such a short time frame) the possibility of 'enhanced' toning efforts. I would hope not, for those who cherish these coins. However, intitial, and now mounting evidence, indicates we may be witnessing the unveiling of a hoax. I hope not. Admittedly, I am not a fan of toning. That being said, I am not predjudiced against it... I often joke about dipping - however, it must be performed judiciously and not without forethought. Each to his/her own. What I have said in previous posts, is true. Toning is progressive. An environment that is changed, to be less aggressive, will slow the phenomena. Unless it is hermetic - in a vacuum, - it will continue, however slowly. Slabs do not meet this criteria.. and each collectors storage - be it SDB or safe or drawer - will introduce it's own unique envronment, and with it.. the progression of toning. Many, many articles have been written here and in numismatic journals regarding toning and the science behind it. Research it. Cheers, RickO
one aspect of this discussion which i find perplexing is the notion that we each look at our coins at regular intervals and nobody with these Battle Creek pedigreed coins has noticed a change prior till this post by RYK. by the above admission, Robert seems not have been viewing these coins as a matter of routine, but when he did check them out after some indefinite period it seemd clear that one looked somewhat different to him.
considering that there are approximately 1,400 BC's out there how many do you think haven't been looked at more than once or twice since they were purchased?? how many owners thought a coin looked a bit different but sloughed it off or just never said anything?? what about the owner who does indeed look at his/her BC's regularly and hasn't noticed the subtle change due to the familiarity of looking at them weekly??
i would be interested in seeing some pictures of the coins in the catalog or in some archives vs. those same coins today. that would answer much we question.
For what little it's worth, my experience with toners has been opposite- I've put them away (them being morgan toners and some franklin proof toners) and have gone back later to find them even more intense than I remember. A few I've been convince have had their colors deepen a bit with time, which would make sense to me. But I haven't bought AT coins though, so that may provide a different experience..